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DonCochran
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If we were created with “free will”, when we die, do we lose the our “free will”?
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srferdave
Guest
No.
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DonCochran
Guest
That is what I always thought. You are given free will and that stays with you. Then this weekend, I began thinking that if there is no conflict, all happiness, no discontent in Heaven, then how could you have free will. Free will would imply that you can make desisions and create thoughts that would be in conflict with another. Without the ability of that, how can you have free will?
Then when I think of praying to the saints for intersession, they most certainly do maintain free will, otherwise, they would not have to nor desire to listen to our prayers.
Then when I think of praying to the saints for intersession, they most certainly do maintain free will, otherwise, they would not have to nor desire to listen to our prayers.
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Philthy
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I understand why you feel that we must somehow “lose” our free will in order to for Heaven to remain perfectly happy. But have you considered that our free will can be perfected in Heaven? We will use our free will perfectly and always opt for what is “good and pleasing and perfect” just as Jesus did while he walked the earth completely endowed with free will yet never sinning.
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JimG
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Actually I would make a distinction here. Our will, as designed, always seeks the good–even if it is a disordered good, or an evil that appears to be good. God didn’t create us with a will that was ordered toward evil.
As a result of original sin, our will is weakened, and ability to choose correctly is weakened.
But when we die, all bodily (name removed by moderator)uts are gone. We have at that point essentially already made our decision for or against God. We will either be inevitably drawn toward God because we have already chosen for Him, or we will turn away from Him because we cannot abide the presence of one we have already rejected.
If we have chosen for him, but imperfectly, we will be drawn toward him but experience suffering as our imperfections are purified by his perfection.
As a result of original sin, our will is weakened, and ability to choose correctly is weakened.
But when we die, all bodily (name removed by moderator)uts are gone. We have at that point essentially already made our decision for or against God. We will either be inevitably drawn toward God because we have already chosen for Him, or we will turn away from Him because we cannot abide the presence of one we have already rejected.
If we have chosen for him, but imperfectly, we will be drawn toward him but experience suffering as our imperfections are purified by his perfection.
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Rick09
Guest
You know, Jim, that’s interesting. It makes me harken back to St. Paul:
And then, when you get your glorified body, it will not be encumbered with those sinful inclinations either.
If your spirit is free of the disordered body, then the will shouldn’t have such problems any more.
And then, when you get your glorified body, it will not be encumbered with those sinful inclinations either.
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JimG
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Yes; I think my point, which I kind of missed clarifying, was that in the actual presence of God, the will cannot really be ‘free’, because it’s nature is to be attracted to his goodness. How then, can we possibly reject God? That is a more mysterious question, but I think it has to do with a lifetime of rejection of him, or even a rejection of him at death, being an irrevocable decision. There is no more sensory (name removed by moderator)ut; there is nothing after death which would cause us to ‘change our mind’ (i.e. change our will). The awareness of God’s presence will only confirm us in our decision.
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Rick09
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You might ask Lucifer and 1/3 of all the angels that question.
I think the problem is that you’re not understanding free will correctly. If you put a gun in my hands and point me at my son, there is no way I’m going to shoot him. Ever. Does that mean that I don’t have the freedom to choose to shoot him? No. It just means that my will has been perfected to the point that I’m trustworthy on that point. I won’t misuse my free will. And eventually, we’ll all be trustworthy before we enter heaven on every point.
When we die, there are only two basic options (the first with a twist). If we die without mortal sin on our soul, we will go to heaven (either via purgatory or not). If we die in mortal sin, then we go to hell. God’s grace cannot change us any longer because mortal sin has cut off the path of grace.
It sounds a little like you’re talking about fundamental option. So you might be a little careful there. You may not mean that, but it sounds a bit like it.
ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/fundoptn.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veritatis_Splendor#The_.22fundamental_option.2C.22_sin.2C_and_salvation
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JimG
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However, the angels were not given the beatific vision–direct contact with God–until after they had passed their own ‘test’ and chosen for or against him. Once God reveals himself directly to any creature with an intellect and will, God’s perfection will inevitably bind the will to Himself.You might ask Lucifer and 1/3 of all the angels that question.
I’m not referring to the “fundamental option” except in the sense that you mean it when saying that after death, there are only two options, heaven or hell.
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ateista
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These speculations are so hilarious! Of course you realize that allegedly Adam and Eve had direct contact with God, and that did not “bind” their will… How many angels fit on the tip of a needle?
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JimG
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Adam and Eve did not have the beatific vision, which is direct contact between the human will and the divine will, the human mind and the divine mind. Had they been given the beatific vision at the outset, the Fall would not have been possible.
Angels have no extension in space, so presuming they wanted to be on the tip of a needle for some reason, it could be as many as they wished. An angel can only be said to ‘be’ in a place to the extent that it acts in a place.
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Rick09
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I’ve never read either of these views. Can you provide authoritative support for them? Or is this a theological supposition?
I’d very much like to read more about it if you have sources.
The only thing I’ve ever read is that unlike humans, the angels knew God as fully as they were capable of knowing Him. They knew fully well what they were doing in their choices. And this is why there was no hope of redemption for them when they failed their test. Humans, on the other hand, have an excuse. Our knowledge of God is imperfect: “we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face.” (1 Cor 13:12) There’s room for grace and repentance.
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BlaineTog
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In Heaven, you will have already made your choice. You have free will, but Heaven isn’t simply a progression of points on a line that keeps going, but rather one “present” stretched to eternity.
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ateista
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Sounds pretty boring. And if there is no time, only one instant elongated, it simply makes no sense to speak of “will”, free or otherwise. “Will” presupposes a decision, an action, and neither one of those is possible if there is no “time” or “change”.
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JimG
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With respect to the fall of the angels, it is undoubtedly a theological speculation, as there was no one there to report on it. It’s based on Thomistic philosophy and the nature of angels and the nature of God. However, it’s not a new speculation; it’s what I learned in theology classes through high school and college. I’m not sure if Sheed mentions it or not in his books.
Our will is directed toward the good or at least the perceived good. Since God is all good, we are inevitably drawn to him. And putting creatures with free will in his direct presence would essentially render free will meaningless.
The same applies to Adam and Eve, who sin is actually no less mysterious than that of the angels. They had no concupiscience, no inclination toward evil before the Fall, contact with their Creator, and yet chose against him. (By contact, I mean something less than the beatific vision, just as Moses had contact with God, but not the beatific vision.)
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Rick09
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Their fall doesn’t seem that mysterious to me. They didn’t have concupiscence, but they weren’t done being perfected yet. They lacked wisdom etc. - all the things that require life experience and time. I would think that’s why God wouldn’t allow them to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I don’t believe God put the tree there just to tease them. They were destined to eat from it, but when they were ready.
Satan tempted them to partake before they were prepared.
That’s just my surmise, though.
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Rick09
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Jim, I’ve been thinking about this line of argument. (I’d like to bat it around more. Don’t take any argument as personal. I’m testing it, especially because some parts don’t seem right to me.)
What bothers me is simply this: If God, our Father, simply had to allow us the beatific vision in order to perfect our wills, then why didn’t he do that from the beginning? Why go through with this whole charade called life? Why the suffering? Why allow some to fall into mortal sin at the end of their lives only to be cast into eternal hell-fire?
He created us. He loves us more than any human father could love us. Can there be any doubt that if any decent human father understood that the way to ensure his kids would be okay was simply to allow them to truly know him, that he would do so?
Conversely, if the reality is that the beatific vision does not automatically render our free wills meaningless, then life makes a great deal more sense to me. Life is about perfecting the will, and determining whether or not it can be pefected (purgatory) to the point that we will not be offensive to God, we will not misuse our wills as Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels did.
And then, the beatific vision is the ultimate reward, a reward that also brings us to our full potential as created beings.
This is all off the top of my head. But these are some thoughts to begin with at least.
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JimG
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Consider that God, the omnipotent being, made creatures and gave them a faculty which would allow them to say no to him. He gave them personhood, intellect, and will, and the ability to choose to love. But love must be freely given. And ironically, in order for it to be freely given, he had to withhold the beatific vision.
A human father must often allow his children to make their own mistakes, knowing that is the only way they can truly learn and become adult. It is, I think, somewhat the same with God.
A child cannot become perfected by having its parents do everything for it; the child will rather become dependent and unfulfilled. That’s the analogy. But the metaphysical reality is that putting a limited human will in the very presence of God would be like putting iron filings in the presence of a supermagnet; they would be overpowered and unable to do anything except align with the strong magnetic field. A magnet who wanted the voluntary assent of the iron filings would have to withhold his magnetism until the filings had made their own decision!
And of course, if God had chosen to make man and place him immediately in the Beatific Vision, he would also have spared his son having to become man, suffer and die as a human, for that was his remedy for what he could forsee as the failure of our human will.
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Rick09
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Here are the problems I see under this scenario:
We were created to love and serve God. If we have no free will in heaven, then how do we truly love him any longer? Love is a free choice. We are reduced to atomatons in heaven. As such, it appears that we are in a superior position to love God while on earth than in heaven. That doesn’t make any sense to me.
I more easily believe that our ability to love will be perfected, not effectively annihilated as it is under the scenario you’re describing.
We were created to love and serve God. If we have no free will in heaven, then how do we truly love him any longer? Love is a free choice. We are reduced to atomatons in heaven. As such, it appears that we are in a superior position to love God while on earth than in heaven. That doesn’t make any sense to me.
I more easily believe that our ability to love will be perfected, not effectively annihilated as it is under the scenario you’re describing.
A human child on earth, yes. But under the scenario you describe in heaven (at least as I understand what you are saying), that is not possible. The child’s will will be overwhelmed automatically by the beatific vision and become perfectly in line with God’s.
True. But I don’t understand the relevance. My understanding is that it was not strictly necessary for God to create a world in which Jesus had to become man, suffer and die.
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JimG
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I don’t think that our free will is annihilated in heaven. It remains the same as always. The only difference is being in the presence of the beatific vision, which is more than the presence of God. It means that God himself takes the place of our idea of him in our minds.
Certainly God could have chosen to create a world in which all persons came into contact with the Beatific Vision upon creation of their soul. Why didn’t he? I can only guess; but one reason may be that in creating free creatures, he wanted to give them the ability to exercise their freedom first without being in his immediate and divine loving presence, which is overpowering.
One might also consider whether it is possible to sin in heaven. If the will is truly ‘free’ in the way we suppose ourselves to be free, that should be a possibility, but it is not. Or can those in hell change their minds by then choosing God? No, their will is already fixed against him.
In any case, I can’t think about it any more this week; I’ve got a plane to catch.
Certainly God could have chosen to create a world in which all persons came into contact with the Beatific Vision upon creation of their soul. Why didn’t he? I can only guess; but one reason may be that in creating free creatures, he wanted to give them the ability to exercise their freedom first without being in his immediate and divine loving presence, which is overpowering.
One might also consider whether it is possible to sin in heaven. If the will is truly ‘free’ in the way we suppose ourselves to be free, that should be a possibility, but it is not. Or can those in hell change their minds by then choosing God? No, their will is already fixed against him.
In any case, I can’t think about it any more this week; I’ve got a plane to catch.
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