"Free Will"

[Rick09]

I don’t think that our free will is annihilated in heaven. It remains the same as always. The only difference is being in the presence of the beatific vision, which is more than the presence of God. It means that God himself takes the place of our idea of him in our minds. .

Okay.

Certainly God could have chosen to create a world in which all persons came into contact with the Beatific Vision upon creation of their soul. Why didn’t he? I can only guess; but one reason may be that in creating free creatures, he wanted to give them the ability to exercise their freedom first without being in his immediate and divine loving presence, which is overpowering. .

Certainly, just because it is difficult to imagine a good reason for this (“good”, imo, of course), it doesn’t make it false. However, I don’t find the positive reason you’ve suggested to be nearly as compelling as the negative implication flowing from it. Under the scenario you presented, God has still allowed many of his children to go to hell when he could have saved and perfected them by simply letting them truly know him right from the start. As a simple, imperfect, earthly father, that doesn’t sit well with me. I have no problem accepting hell-fire when it is not a consequence of God refusing to provide what man needs.

This makes me think of the account of the rich man in hell to an extent. When he asked that Abraham send someone from the dead to warn them, Abraham replied: “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.” (cf. Luke 16:31)

When the will is set against God, He cannot help us because it violates the free will which He gave us.

And of course, when one is in mortal sin, the avenue of God’s grace is cut off. When we die, there is no longer any means to restore it. And that is why we go to hell. Our condition is locked in.

This raises another question in relation to the angels. The angels were in heaven. Heaven is where God’s presence permeates everything. So, how can we say that the angels were in heaven yet were not actually privy to the beatific vision (before Lucifer’s fall)? Wouldn’t this require the belief that God’s presence did not permeate heaven at that time? If so, that seems a little precarious.

One might also consider whether it is possible to sin in heaven. If the will is truly ‘free’ in the way we suppose ourselves to be free, that should be a possibility, but it is not. Or can those in hell change their minds by then choosing God? No, their will is already fixed against him. .

Two thoughts:

First: 1/3 of the angels did sin in heaven. So, it is possible for sin to occur in heaven.

Second: Again, if you put a gun in my hands and point me at my son, there is no way I am ever going to pull that trigger. At least in this limited scenario, I am completely trustworthy and my will is aligned with God’s. That is because God’s grace has perfected my will, not rendered it meaningless. Why not suppose that purgatory is simply the place in which God continues the pefecting process and the imperfections are cleansed. And as purgatory is the ante-room of heaven, so to speak, it is God’s divine presence that does the cleansing.

Third, those in hell can’t change their minds because the avenue for the grace of repentance no longer exists in hell. They will know what they have done and what they have lost. And that will burn eternally.

When you get back, maybe we’ll be able to continue. But I have my own deadlines approaching.

Regardless, I enjoyed it.

Pax.

 

[JimG]

1/3 of the angels did sin in heaven. So, it is possible for sin to occur in heaven.

If “in heaven” is taken to mean the attainment of the beatific vision, the angels were not “in heaven” when they sinned. They were in the presence of God, but did not attain their eternal reward until passing their particular test which involved choosing God over self.

Neither, of course, were Adam & Eve “in heaven” or in attainment of the beatific vision at the time they sinned, although they were in the presence of God, as we all are when we sin.

Fr. Serpa replied to a similar question as regards to Lucifer some time ago.

 

[Rick09]

If “in heaven” is taken to mean the attainment of the beatific vision, the angels were not “in heaven” when they sinned. They were in the presence of God, but did not attain their eternal reward until passing their particular test which involved choosing God over self.

If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying that the angels were in that “place” Scripture calls heaven, but God’s presence was not permeating it then. The problem I’m having is that if God’s presence was not permeating it, it wasn’t heaven. That’s the definition of heaven, where God’s presence permeates all things.

Also, it doesn’t easily harmonize with Scripture:

Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and on his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth.
Rev 12:7 And there was a great battle in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels.
Rev 12:8 And they prevailed not: neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world. And he was cast unto the earth: and his angels were thrown down with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of the testimony: and they loved not their lives unto death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man child.

The Greek for heaven here is the same word Christ and St. Paul use for heaven when they are clearly talking about being in the direct, full presence of God, for instance:

Matt 5:16 Glorify your Father Who is in heaven.

Matt 6:9 Our Father Who art in heaven

Luke 10:18 I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven

There are scores more like these.

I would have to read much more about this theological line of reasoning and the distinction it draws here. I don’t see a sufficient reason for it, it seems to create unnecessary problems. I don’t see any real problems with the understanding I presented about free will and how it is perfected.

Do you have any suggestions for books that might bring out this teaching more fully and clearly? You probably can’t do it any kind of justice on a forum like this.

Thanks.

 

[JimG]

In discussing this, one would probably have to distinguish between the idea of heaven as a place, heaven as a state of being, and heaven as a state of graced existence united with God.

The problem is that in one sense, God’s presence permeates not only heaven, but this earth and all places and times, as well as all people. His presence must permeate everything because of His omnipresence, and especially his presence as Creator holding everything in existence.

Yet we distinguish that kind of presence of God from sanctifying Grace–the indwelling of the Holy Trinity as an unmerited gift-- a participation in His divine life. This is a different type of presence than his presence at the core of our being simply by the fact of his continuing to hold us in existence.

I’m sure there are books on the subject, but the only one that comes immediately to mind is Peter Kreeft’s Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Heaven, but never dreamed of asking. An excerpt from the book, “Is There Sex in Heaven?” can be found here, although I think it might better be titled, “more than you ever really wanted to know about sex.”

 

[SpiritMeadow]

LOL…it’s a fun little conversation, but to say that you know what will happen is errrrr, slightly wrong wouldnt’ you say? You may have an opinion. I suggest nobody knows. Perhaps we get to choose what we do next after we die. Perhaps we don’t. We can perhaps it to death. Nobody knows.

 

[Rick09]

I’m sure there are books on the subject, but the only one that comes immediately to mind is Peter Kreeft’s Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Heaven, but never dreamed of asking. An excerpt from the book, “Is There Sex in Heaven?” can be found here, although I think it might better be titled, “more than you ever really wanted to know about sex.”

I’ve been poking around a bit at New Advent and a few other places. There are a few different schools of thought on this general topic that are permissible for Catholics (including views about the fall of the angels, etc.).

I understand the distinctions you suggested in terms of “heaven”, but at least as you’ve described it, it isn’t compelling to me. I find it more logical that heaven (where the angels reside and where we hope to reside after we die) is where God’s presence fully permeates all things. While God holds all things in existence, the teaching of the Church is that Satan holds sway and influence over earth. Evil, in a certain sense, is a lack of good. Just as darkness is an absence of light. I am not comfortable suggesting that the heavenly abode (heaven) has ever been lacking in God’s presence. I don’t think it’s necessary to suppose such a thing in order to explain free will, the fall of angels, etc.

But again, that may simply be that I need to read something more in depth about this other view you’ve described. There are some issues raised by it that are in need of better-fuller answers and it’s not really fair to expect you to cover them in a forum like this.

Pax

 

[JimG]

I find it more logical that heaven (where the angels reside and where we hope to reside after we die) is where God’s presence fully permeates all things.

Well yes, God’s presence certainly does permeate all of heaven, however heaven is construed.

It seems to me though, that the ultimate experience of the presence of God consists in the beatific vision. I’ve heard it explained this way: Normally we know reality (including God) through abstract ideas. We can’t get actual outside objects inside our intellects, so the ideas stand in for reality. In heaven, in the beatific vision, God himself takes the place of our idea of him. Rather than knowing him through ideas or even visions, God implants himself into our intellect, and his caritas into our will.

But that’s just theological speculation.

In the end, whether or not there is sex in heaven is probably a more interesting topic, though perhaps not for philosophers.