Free will??

  • Thread starter Thread starter K_C
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
K

K_C

Guest
I find that quite a few quotations from scripture are seemingly self-contradictory. Specifically, in the past few days the gospel readings for the Mass have contained statements that confuse me about God’s power versus our free will. Thus:

“the LORD made Pharaoh obstinate, and he would not let the Israelites leave his land.”

(So does this mean that Pharaoh was without sin in constraining the Israelites? After all, it was the LORD Who made him obstinate!)

“You have scattered my sheep and driven them away. You have not cared for them, but I will take care to punish your evil deeds. I myself will gather the remnant of my flock from all the lands to which I have driven them and bring them back to their meadow.”

(Here Christ accuses the “bad shepherds” for failing His flock. Yet, moments later, He states that it was He Himself Who drove the sheep astray." ???)

There are other such examples in scripture where it seems that God causes effects within men that we attribute to their own personal sin. Can anyone clarify? This seems to contradict our concept of free will. Also…

This is not directly related, but also a recent reading at Mass:

"I will appoint shepherds for them who will shepherd them so that they need no longer fear and tremble."

I can’t help wondering WHY the “sheep” would “fear and tremble” under the “leadership” of the “bad shepherds”. Do you think that, in the end times (upon us soon?) even leaders in the Church will give their congregations reason to “fear and tremble” - that, perhaps, some clergy will betray us to the NWO? What other reason might we have to fear and tremble?
 
There are other such examples in scripture where it seems that God causes effects within men that we attribute to their own personal sin. Can anyone clarify? This seems to contradict our concept of free will. Also…
Click to expand...
You have to remember that the book of Jeremiah (where this reading comes from) is both historical and prophetic. Right in the middle of the book, the “Day of the Lord” occured through the Babylonians who destroyed Jerusalem and then occupied it.

The passages read last weekend mostly prophesy of the coming of the “Lord of Justice” (i.e. Jesus) It talks about the bad shepherds or the bad leaders that had lead Israel astray. The people made their choices and God allowed it to happen as a punnishment.
So does this mean that Pharaoh was without sin in constraining the Israelites? After all, it was the LORD Who made him obstinate!)
Click to expand...
Again, Pharaoh made a choice, God allowed it. Just as our choices can lead us to sin or not. “Making Pharaoh obstinate” was part of his personality which God created. He was obstinate in everything, the author just stated it here to show what Moses and Aaron were up against. Also, not only was the Lord placing judgement on the Egyptians for making slaves of the israelites, but he was showing his power to the israelites.

Sometimes God punishes by giving you what you want so that you will see it wasn’t so great after all. Men make their beds, God makes the lay in them. God gives us choices and shows us, either directly or indirectly, which is the better choice. We make that decision, good or bad, and we have to live with the benefits or suffer with the repercussions. It’s what makes us human.
 
puppypatrol said:
Again, Pharaoh made a choice, God allowed it. Just as our choices can lead us to sin or not. “Making Pharaoh obstinate” was part of his personality which God created. He was obstinate in everything, the author just stated it here to show what Moses and Aaron were up against. Also, not only was the Lord placing judgement on the Egyptians for making slaves of the israelites, but he was showing his power to the israelites.
Click to expand...
Aren’t you simply pushing back the cause from the moment at hand to the original act of the creation of the individual? You seem to be indicating that God created Pharaoh with a generally obstinate nature. If God created him that way, then how does that answer the OP’s objection? Pharaoh was merely acting in accordance with the nature that God created.

Could not the passage mean that God chose in this instance to intervene to produce the result He desired? There seem to be many such instances of divine intervention within the Bible
 
Don_Schneider said:
Aren’t you simply pushing back the cause from the moment at hand to the original act of the creation of the individual? You seem to be indicating that God created Pharaoh with a generally obstinate nature. If God created him that way, then how does that answer the OP’s objection? Pharaoh was merely acting in accordance with the nature that God created.

Could not the passage mean that God chose in this instance to intervene to produce the result He desired? There seem to be many such instances of divine intervention within the Bible
Click to expand...
Yes, Pharoah was created by God exactly how God wanted him to be but Pharoah also chose to be obstinate instead of overcoming that challenge in his personality and doing the right thing. Also, like I said, God also used this challenge to show his people (the Israelites) what he could do thus creating the desired situation.

God has created similar instances throughout history and you could use the same argument when the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem in 500 BC, or when Christ was crucified, or when the Romans destroyed the temple for the last time in 70 AD. God uses these times to judge and, in the end, purify His people as “the Day of the Lord”.

Why God gave man “free will” is and always will be somewhat a mystery. He could have created the entire human race to only love and obey him but then we wouldn’t be who we are, would we. God gave humankind the opportunity to love and serve him out of desire, not because we have no other choice. Which is worth more?
 
The promise of the gospel is that we can participate in His bridging reality. The upshot is atonement. However great the moral demands, we can stretch toward them, even stretch to the point of dying to ourselves, without shattering our lives.

To put the matter in scriptural terms more familiar to students of classical theories of atonement: in Christ, we can draw near to the holiness of God without being consumed by the purifying fires of judgment. We can become radically different — even holy — without emptying ourselves of our individuality.

A clear expression of this confidence that radical moral demand is consistent with continuous personal identity may be found in Pope John Paul II’s encyclical on fundamental questions in moral theology, Veritatis Splendor. The dominant theme of the encyclical is the sovereignty of moral truth, not only as universal and unchanging, but also as commanding the loyalty of the whole person.

The ideal of moral perfection flows from this sovereignty, and John Paul’s specific reflections on technical questions in Roman Catholic moral theology are detailed defenses of the scope and depth of moral demand against various efforts to narrow and soften ethical obligations. One of the most important discussions concerns the relationship between divine law and human freedom.

There, John Paul responds to contemporary worries about self-alienation with this dogmatic claim: “Patterned on God’s freedom, man’s freedom is not negated by his obedience to the divine law; indeed, only through this obedience does it abide in truth and conform to human dignity.” The demands of Christian ethics, even the counsels of perfection (as in that intimidating Sermon on the Mount) that press the follower of Christ toward supernatural ends, are a fulfillment rather than a diminishment of our individuality."

More of this fine essay on human freedom and divine law by R. R. Reno here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/06/30/annals-of-evangelization-fear-of-redemption/

Regards,

dj
 
I appreciate and agree with the statements made here. However, my question remains:

HOW can it be said that one has “free will” when God MAKES him obstinate (or any other negative personality)? (This does not even begin to touch upon all the many demands and circumstances of our lives which severely limit our free will.)

I get the point that we can struggle to overcome a human TENDENCY, yet this quotation from scripture says that God MADE Paroah obstinate…not that He allowed him to be obstinate.

If God MAKES some humans with basic personal flaws in order to work His will, doesn’t this imply that God favors some humans over others - the saints, for instance?

Furthermore, I can see that being a supreme ruler, as was Pharoah, would make it terribly difficult to overcome such a weakness as obstinacy. Also, Pharoah did not know the One, True God at all. So please, someone, explain God’s definition of JUSTICE.

I am disturbed by this point because God also said “My ways are not your ways”. I am beginning to think that God defines words like “justice” and “love” far differently than we do. For another example, would any one of you bring a child into this world, KNOWING that he would end up in hell forever? Would you allow forty infants and toddlers to die in a fire in a Mexican school - when there was no personal sin involved at all? (Btw, where were their guardian angels?)

If we don’t even use the same vocabulary, how can we hope to know God, let alone serve/love Him?

Despite the appearance, I have centered my life around my faith in God. However, my life seems to be quite a failure in every sense, so I am being sorely tempted with doubts. Thank you for your insights and help.

(Thanks, too, for the references to JPII’s encyclical. I will read that as I have also wondered why God expects us to “pervert” our very natures in order to please Him - that is to say, the only nature we know which is, of course, defective since Eden yet still what we call “normal”. Why does God make us in order that we may suffer - both here and, presumably for most, after death?)
 
K_C said:
I find that quite a few quotations from scripture are seemingly self-contradictory. Specifically, in the past few days the gospel readings for the Mass have contained statements that confuse me about God’s power versus our free will. Thus:

“the LORD made Pharaoh obstinate, and he would not let the Israelites leave his land.”

(So does this mean that Pharaoh was without sin in constraining the Israelites? After all, it was the LORD Who made him obstinate!)
Click to expand...
KC, this verses makes me confused too. Hm…it’s not only me then. You may read my thread for this verses
 
puppypatrol said:
Why God gave man “free will” is and always will be somewhat a mystery. He could have created the entire human race to only love and obey him but then we wouldn’t be who we are, would we. God gave humankind the opportunity to love and serve him out of desire, not because we have no other choice. Which is worth more?
Click to expand...
One time I asked the same question why God gave men free will if free will make men confused. I think one member of CAF answered (sorry I forgot the name) but his answer is very good. He said that because God loves men very much, truely and unconditionally. Because true love always gives a choice to other people, and it never forces people to do some thing.
 
wina said:
One time I asked the same question why God gave men free will if free will make men confused. I think one member of CAF answered (sorry I forgot the name) but his answer is very good. He said that because God loves men very much, truely and unconditionally. Because true love always gives a choice to other people, and it never forces people to do some thing.
Click to expand...
Amen
 
Yes, I also know the explanation as to why God gave men free will. However, the question is: How much free will did Pharoah really have? How much free will do we really have if God “makes” us obstinate, hard of heart, etc. etc.?

I guess my question is really one about predestination too because it seems that God knows which of us will go to hell well before creating us, yet gives us life anyway. He also allows circumstances that can be devastating which we cannot possibly overcome and which cannot be directly attributed to a misuse of free will - as in the case of the Mexican children who burned to death in that school house recently.

I thought that we become wiser with advancing age if we truly try to love and serve God, but I find that life only becomes more confusing and heart-breaking as time passes because of questions such as these.
 
I had a similar discussion with a non-believer about free will and what it really means. This is the example I used (not perfect but I think it gets the point). One of my teenage daughter’s chores is doing the dishes. Let’s say that one day she’s “in a mood” or distracted or something and I know (based on previous experience) she’s not going to get around to doing the dishes. Even though I know this, I will give her the opportunity to make the choice to do her job. I can’t punish her for not doing the dishes until she actually doesn’t do them. Similarly, God knows our hearts and knows exactly what we are capable of and what we will do. But He still gives us the opportunity to make the right choice.

As far as making Pharoah obstinate, that’s for better scholars than I 🙂
 
God “hardening pharaoh’s heart” means God either withdrew any grace that would have aided pharaoh to make the right decision, or did not bestow any assisting graces to help him in making these choices. But God did not take away his free will – or his natural intelligence.
As you know by reading the story in Exodus, 10 times powerful miraculous signs were given to Pharaoh. Just normal intelligence should have been enough to lead him to make better decisions than he did. Even his advisers recommended to him that he let the Hebrews go. Pharaoh’s personal sinfulness (greed??, stubborness?? rejecting normal intelligence??) was of his own doing. You’ll notice if you read the episode of the plagues in chapters 4 thru 14, it speaks not only of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, but also of Pharaoh hardening his heart. For example:
Exodus 9:34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. 9:35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken through Moses.

Here is the footnote from the Haydock Bible footnotes on Ex 4:21 haydock1859.tripod.com/ :
Ver. 21. I shall harden, &c. Not by being the efficient cause of his sin; but by withdrawing from him, for his just punishment, the dew of grace, that might have softened his heart; and so suffering him to grow harder and harder. (Challoner) — Non impertiendo misericordiam. (St. Augustine, ep. 194, ad Sixt.) Thus God permitted the false miracles of the magicians, and did not suffer the scourges to continue long, so that the tyrant soon relapsed and forgot his promises. (Origen, Philos. xx; Theod. in Rom. ix. 16.) (Calmet)
 
Nita said:
God “hardening pharaoh’s heart” means God either withdrew any grace that would have aided pharaoh to make the right decision, or did not bestow any assisting graces to help him in making these choices. But God did not take away his free will – or his natural intelligence.
As you know by reading the story in Exodus, 10 times powerful miraculous signs were given to Pharaoh. Just normal intelligence should have been enough to lead him to make better decisions than he did. Even his advisers recommended to him that he let the Hebrews go. Pharaoh’s personal sinfulness (greed??, stubborness?? rejecting normal intelligence??) was of his own doing. You’ll notice if you read the episode of the plagues in chapters 4 thru 14, it speaks not only of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, but also of Pharaoh hardening his heart. For example:
Exodus 9:34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. 9:35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken through Moses.
Here is the footnote from the Haydock Bible footnotes on Ex 4:21 haydock1859.tripod.com/ :
Ver. 21. I shall harden, &c. Not by being the efficient cause of his sin; but by withdrawing from him, for his just punishment, the dew of grace, that might have softened his heart; and so suffering him to grow harder and harder. (Challoner) — Non impertiendo misericordiam. (St. Augustine, ep. 194, ad Sixt.) Thus God permitted the false miracles of the magicians, and did not suffer the scourges to continue long, so that the tyrant soon relapsed and forgot his promises. (Origen, Philos. xx; Theod. in Rom. ix. 16.) (Calmet)
Click to expand...
That’s a very good answer. However I still wonder why the language of the bible says that God will MAKE Pharoah obstinate. This verb is used time and again in the Old Testament and I can’t help but wonder why it was not written “I will ALLOW Pharoah to be obstinate” instead. The word “make” infers that Pharaoh could do nothing to resist. However, you are correct in pointing out that all the miracles which Moses worked before him should have been enough to move his heart. So it appears that when God makes/allows a hardened heart, He also provides some particular grace by which the sinner may amend his attitude - if not at that moment, then in the future.

Thanks, too, to the poster of the story about the teenaged girl. It was a good illustration!
 
There’s no doubt that the Bible teaches that we have free will, so the title question has been answered.

We do have the question about how to explain those verses, and posters have taken a lot of efforts to do so, but it is not persuasive, totally.

You can look at this from the other direction, too. Did Mary really have free will to reject God’s choice of her, to be the mother of Jesus? We make so much of her “fiat” – be it done unto me according to your word – but, similarly, did she really have a choice?
If nothing else, the special revelation of God’s will to her left her no choice at all. (And, isn’t that the same way with us all – unless we like Jonah run in the opposite direction, but for only so long?)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top