Free will

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Only to some extent?
  • We had the choice to, or not to eat from the tree of good and evil. It doesn’t really say that we had complete free will
I know this is what you believe, I’m asking where you came up with it?

I’m not sure I know what you’re asking. It’s what I think after reading genesis 1-3. I read a lot of history and theology but I’m not sure that what I said is specific to any book I’ve read. Could you rephrase the question.
 
Protestant Poppycock!! We are free to choose to repent & follow God or Not. Omniscience is All Knowing NOT ALL CAUSING…

Logically the two can’t be separated. Everything that happens is by God’s providence and even misfortune is coused by the lack of the presence of God. Omniscience is only one of God’s charicteristics.

The Fact that God started the universe in Motion & (being outside of Time & Space) Knows when it will end has little to no influence upon whether or not you choose to Obey God & his Commandments or not.

Huh? God controlls everyhting. He’s all powerfull.

I understand that for many Calvinist influenced Pro-test-ants this train of thought is not acceptable.

Right you are, I am pretty much a Calvinist even though I go to the Lutheran Church. If you want to read theoligy that makes perfect sense read the Institutes of the Christain Religion.
But i digress, God is all powerfull, all knowing and transcends time and space. Nothing that happens, including salvation is without his will. Even evil and misfortune is the abscense of God, but God has to withdraw his presence for this to happen.
 
Protestant Poppycock!! We are free to choose to repent & follow God or Not. Omniscience is All Knowing NOT ALL CAUSING…

Logically the two can’t be separated. Everything that happens is by God’s providence and even misfortune is coused by the lack of the presence of God. Omniscience is only one of God’s charicteristics.

The Fact that God started the universe in Motion & (being outside of Time & Space) Knows when it will end has little to no influence upon whether or not you choose to Obey God & his Commandments or not.

Huh? God controlls everyhting. He’s all powerfull.

I understand that for many Calvinist influenced Pro-test-ants this train of thought is not acceptable.

Right you are, I am pretty much a Calvinist even though I go to the Lutheran Church. If you want to read theoligy that makes perfect sense read the Institutes of the Christain Religion.
But i digress, God is all powerfull, all knowing and transcends time and space. Nothing that happens, including salvation is without his will. Even evil and misfortune is the abscense of God, but God has to withdraw his presence for this to happen.

Read it! Rejected it Long ago, Is was flawed logic & denied man’s role in his own salvation.

God Will may have set things in Motion, & God may even intervene in “man’s” life from time to time but Predeterminism Mandates Man’s inability to Choose & thrusts upon all men God’s Mandate of Life or Death. Scripture clearly states that God does not will the loss of a single soul. Yet your Calvinist Doctrine teaches in open defiance of Scripture ( your 1 & only source of divine knowledge)

Catholics derive strength & Holy Grace from our 7 sacraments which enables us to overcome sin according to God’s Plan ( His will if you like but only in the broadest sense & application of the word).

My analogy of the Publisher (God) & the hired writers (man) was spot on and seriously undermines this Calvinistic drivel that no Good Lutheran should be spewing.

Again I know that Catholic concepts of FREE WILL are foreign to you
and that it is essential that you flee from them in order to be able to embrace your flawed Doctrine. This in no way negates the clear fact that you’d prefer any easy answer type of Dogmatic teaching, one that doesn’t require thinking, examination and reflection. That is a lot of work, especially for 1 man to do (Calvin or you) But we have the Sacred traditions & the Teaching Magisterium - about 2000 years of in-depth analysis of Church & secular Teaching & practices to support us with 1000s of brilliant Minds over Centuries dealing with these various & complex issues… What you got?? Calvin? 1 lone man, 1500+ yrs after the fact saying that all before him are wrong?
Please!!! Maybe You’d like to Claim a Piece of Luther too, but he refuted & rebuked Calvinist Teaching/Doctrine So that’s a tad hard to do.

Good Luck stumbling down the poorly lit path you traverse. We will Pray for you. Regards,
Vivat Jesus
 
Only to some extent?
  • We had the choice to, or not to eat from the tree of good and evil. It doesn’t really say that we had complete free will
I know this is what you believe, I’m asking where you came up with it?

I’m not sure I know what you’re asking. It’s what I think after reading genesis 1-3. I read a lot of history and theology but I’m not sure that what I said is specific to any book I’ve read. Could you rephrase the question.
You list yourself as Lutheran, Missouri Synod. They, as far as I know, do not promote a Calvinistic view of Predestination, which is what you seem to be doing. I asked this another thread of yours as well. I’ll check both, so don’t feel the need to answer in both.
 
If God in all knowing and all powerfull then predestination is a locical necessity. Wouuld you agree?
The dilemma you are in is how can free will (we choose on our own) and an all knowing, all powerful God exist simultaneously and in perfect harmony so free will cannot negate God’s omnipotence and God’s omnipotence cannot negate free will.

The greatest commandment is love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Love is the essence of free will so if we are not free we cannot truly love. God does not coerce us into loving Him but He woos us … that is a big difference. Anyone with a spouse knows we don’t force ourselves on our intended but attempt to let them seem the goodness and love within us thus allowing them to say yes … on their own. Who really wants coerced love … if there is such a thing.

I submit that the existance of these two occuring simultaneously is testimony to the omnipotence of God rather than either a dismissal of free will or the lack of God’s omnipotence.
 
GranpaMuster,
Code:
This is a classic question in philosophy.  May I offer you an audio lecture on philosophy on just this issue by a reknowned PhD, Dr. Peter Kreeft, who teaches at Boston College?  The .mp3 file you want to download and hear is titled, "Fated and Free" and can be had from the following link:
alabamacatholicresources.com/dr_peter_kreeft.html
The bottom line is that God is outside of time. We human creatures live, from our perspective, from moment to moment. God does not. He does not "forsee" the future, but "sees" it like we see the present moment, because He is IN the future as well as the past and present. He is in all places at all times, all at once. But this does, in no way, interfere with our free will choices. Dr. Kreeft explains this very well, in my opinion. Give it a go and see if that helps. :)
 
I’m sorry for my lack of response, I only have access to a computer on a limited basis. Thank you to everyone who has responded to this post and my othert posts.
 
“You list yourself as Lutheran, Missouri Synod. They, as far as I know, do not promote a Calvinistic view of Predestination, which is what you seem to be doing.”

Lutheranism and Calvinism both fall under the heading of “reformed” christianity and thiewr teachings are similar. The Lutherans do not teack limited attonement as the Calvinists do or double predestination. THe elect are predestined and saved by God’s grace in both theologies, however.
 
Bookgorl32:
In a perfect world I would go to a calvinist church, but for several reasons I like the LCMS church. Onle reason is thier liturgical service, which is what attracts me to Catholicism it’s a long story. As the the interpretation of genesis, I tend to try to think for myself and my statement may not reflect the theology of any paticular church.
(I know, I’m doing something I’m not equiped to do, right.)
 
T.U.L.I.P. THEOLOGY–TULIP Theology

TULIP is an acronym–too confusing to explain in a forum.

Double Predestination, it seems, is what Grampamunster is talking about. Predestination is taught in the LCMS. However, when referring to Calvin’s thoughts and teachings the whole notion is mocked and then TULIP is brought up. Take a look at the site.there are two sections and then the TULIP is presented one at a time.

If anyone feels able to explain, feel free. Calvin is too illogical and confusing for me.

reformed.org also explains the Calvinistic views being presented.
 
Predestination and Double Predestination.

Predestination is biblical, double predestinatin is not.

The idea about double predestination is a human made doctrine to rationally explain why people who are not predestinated go to hell.

This is easily explained however, and is in harmony with the rest of the bible.

As Mankind was born into sin through original sin, we are all born spiritualy dead. To be spiritually dead is to be under the Wrath of God. So all of mankind is under the wrath of God until the time they have been given a new resurected soul.

When mankind rebelled against God, they came under the fury of God’s wrath. They came under the hatred of God. God says in Hebews Chapter 1 verse 9, that He hates sin. He hates the sinner(Romans 9:13). God says in Psalm 11:5**The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Sin is anarchy; sin is rebellion against God. We all deserve the hatred of God, but God says in John 3:16**For God so loved [For God in this way loved] the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gods wonderful love is seen in the fact that He saves some people(Predestined). His love is seen in the fact that He has provided for the salvation of those He chose to save from before the foundation of the earth(Predestined)

We read in Deut 22:26-28** Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day; And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Put this passage in the setting of Romans 3:10-12**As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is nont that doeth good, no, not one.

This is God’s statement concerning the whole human race. god comes to the rebellious human race, none of whom will seek Him, none will do any righteousness, and He says if you will obey me, it will go well with you, and you will have my blessing, and if you disobey, you are under the curse of God. What is man going to do? Well, every man is under the curse of God,

which is why we read in Ephesians 2:2-5**Wherin in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loves us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.)

The only reason that anyone begins to do the will of God and begins to respond to the Gospel is because God is drawing him. We read in Philippians 2:13**For it is god which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If we begin to cry to God or call upon His name, that is not the means through which we are saved; it is simply the evidence that god is drawing us. The work of salvation is totally independent of our cry to God. We are saved by grace through faith but whose faith? My faith? No. My faith is a work that I do, and we ar not saved by works.

We read in Ephesian 2:8-9**For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves [that is, not of your faith]: it is the gift of God; Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Very clearly this shows that all of Mankind is born into sin, and that sin is to be under the wrath of God, and as this is the case we all, every single human being, all of Mankind, is destined for spiritual death, total destruction, and being seperated from God. It is God’s mercy that before the foundations He did all the work of salvation and those who are chosen there sins have been paid for and they are the elect
 
God says in John 6:44** No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is not talking about a precondition for salvation. We read in Philippians 2:13** For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It might not seem right to us in our heart because we are all part of the sin problem. By nature, we are all under the wrath of God. We are not able to understand the perfect justice of God. We must remember that no one will go to hell because God viciously wants people to go to hell. People are under the wrath and will go to hell because they are in rebellion against God. God did not create man to destroy him in hell; God created man in His image, to love and obey Him, and to have the highest good from Him.

God warned mankind, beginning with our first parents Adam and Eve, that in the day mankind rebelled, that is, if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would surley die. In the face of this warning, and the fact that mankind was created perfect, and the fact that God was perfectly loving toward them, they rebelled. Therefore, the perfect justice and the perfect righteousness of God came into play, and God had no alternative but to send mankind to hell. By rights the whole human race ought to end up in hell.

Romans 3:10-12** As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one; there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. they are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

so as you can see, we must change our thinking, because our will or desire or love has nothing to do with being a precondition for salvation. For as you see, it is only by the grace of God, that we are all here in the first place seeking Him. He put it in us to seek Him.

The bible says in Matthew 22:24** For many are called, but few are chosen. So what happened to all these people who were called but not chosen? The gospel call is to go out to the whole world, God says in Mark 16:15** And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

God does not say that we are to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to the elect of God, that is, those whome He has chosen. We have no idea who the elect are. We are to bring the Gospel to as many people as we are able to reach. We are to bring the Gospel as intensively and as extensively as possible. As the Gospel goes out, it is the Gospel call to the whole human race, god is commanding all people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, Each on is commanded to believe on Him.

No one will respond to that command because everyone is spiritually dead in their sins. But, here and there, someone does respond. We here about this one or that one who has become saved. What happned to them? what happened is that god had chosen them to salvation, and at some point in their life, and they became saved.

I hope this cleared up some confusion. To summarize, double predestination is not biblical, it is not in the bible it is not even hinted at and it is man made doctrine to explain the unfairness of some being saved and some not being saved. And that is another indicator this is man made, man needs to rationally explain God in terms of fairness and logic, though our puny minds are not capable of explaining God. God gave us predestination to study and consider, somebody else created double predestination because they thought it was unfair. Is God unfair? Is God making this up as He goes? Does God know what He is doing? So we accept predestination and try to understand it in Gods words and terms, not ours, when that happens we get doctrine like double predestination which only serves to move people further from the biblical truth.

Prov 8:21 “That I may cause those who love Me to inherit wealth, that I may fill their treasuries.”

Prov 8:22 “The Lord possessed Me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.”

Prov 8:23 “I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth.”

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”

Rom 9:11 For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

1Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as the Lamb without blemish and without spot.

1Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

1Peter 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
 
We had the choice to, or not to eat from the tree of good and evil. It doesn’t really say that we had complete free will
God’s sovereignty includes our free will. If Adam weren’t completly free, he would have already been predetermined to disobey the divine command, and any warning from God would have been irrelevant and nothing more than a meaningless threat. To argue that God was issuing a meaningless warning makes God a deceiver and a liar, and that is not true. The only liar in the garden was Satan, the father of lies.

Also, Christ would not have had to redeem us by the blood of His cross if we weren’t free, because God would not have been angered by our sins (which is the reason Christ had to suffer; to appease the Father). Instead, we would have already been excused by our lack of freedom, since sin no longer would have been a choice.
 
I read an interesting piece from the Library section of catholic answers called " Tiptoe through the Tulip" or close to that. In brief, the article scared me so badly from the very idea of double pre-destination that I nearly felt I was better off to kill myself now.
Thank goodness I don’t see much in the way of back up for that nasty theology.

I suggest the excellent resources in the library on this one, and ask the apologist. I know people here are wonderful with answers, but this double pre-destination thing is so horrid I would be very very careful and research this one until you no longer have any shred of doubt at all about it. It made me nearly go nuts after I first heard of it. 3 nights with no sleep whatsoever!
 
“God Will may have set things in Motion, & God may even intervene in “man’s” life from time to time but Predeterminism Mandates Man’s inability to Choose & thrusts upon all men God’s Mandate of Life or Death. Scripture clearly states that God does not will the loss of a single soul. Yet your Calvinist Doctrine teaches in open defiance of Scripture ( your 1 & only source of divine knowledge”

If God were to leave mankind completely free to chioose to do good or evil we would only do evil. What your saying isn’t wrong. It’s a distortion of reality. Yes we are “free”, but the freedom is an illusion. We are only free to sin. God’s grace is necessary to do good.
God does not will the loss of a single soul, but this comes under the category of universal grace , the rain falls on the just and the unjust, it does not mean that God is not in control of your destiny.
 
“The greatest commandment is love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Love is the essence of free will so if we are not free we cannot truly love. God does not coerce us into loving Him but He woos us”
THink about the last three words. If God didn’t “woo us” would we come to him?
 
Entercaanan:
Your scripture references only go to prove my point:
God says in John 6:44** No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This is not talking about a precondition for salvation. We read in Philippians 2:13** For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

God is in control. It’s just that simple. If we go to hell it’s because we do not accept Christ’s sarifice for our sins, but it is only God’s grace that leads you to repent. IF you want to believe in free will go ahead. You’re not wrong. Human will is corrupted, however, and people with free will will always choose to sin.
 
" because God would not have been angered by our sins (which is the reason Christ had to suffer; to appease the Father). Instead, we would have already been excused by our lack of freedom, since sin no longer would have been a choice."
Adams state prior to the fall may or may not have been completely free. After the fall our will has been corrupted. We are free to choose - sin.
The paradox of God’s sacrificing himself to appease himself for our sin which by nature we commit is something that is beyond out comprehension, but we can thank God for it.
 
" read an interesting piece from the Library section of catholic answers called " Tiptoe through the Tulip" or close to that. In brief, the article scared me so badly from the very idea of double pre-destination that I nearly felt I was better off to kill myself now.
Thank goodness I don’t see much in the way of back up for that nasty theology."
Strawberryjam:
The concept of predestination is not scary. Everything is in God’s hands. Think of yourself as an actor in a play. You don’t choose your character, but you choose how well you play the part.
 
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