Free Will

[Sufjon]

I live in the south, where there are churches on almost every corner of one sort or another. Sometimes there are even rows of them, one next to the other. Some of these churches have the term Free Will in their names. Here is the question: I’ve never seen a church that said anything contrary to free will in their names, and I haven’t heard any Christians claim to believe anything other than free will. This is not to say that there aren’t any. It only says that I haven’t encountered any, so I’m open to correction on that. This leads me to the question, which is in two parts, the first as to whether there are denominations that don’t believe in free will. As for the second part, I must say that I’m interested in the idea of free will. I can’t say whether there is such a thing or if there isn’t. I’m only looking for answers. Would anyone care to share their thoughts or provide some guidance?

 

[Publisher]

Friend Sufjon, there are Christian groups…mostly Calvinistic/Reformed that have a view of “limited atonement”…God destines some people to salvation…and some to damnation and nothing one can do will change one’s fate…there is no “willful choice” involved…God is Soverign and He and He alone decides who is to be “saved”. Mostly this is taught in one of it’s modified foms in the Reformed or Baptist traditions…there are some Baptists who reject “election” and “limited atonement” and call themselves “Free Will Baptists”.

Most Christians I believe hold a doctrine of “free will” rather than “election”, “eternal security of the believer” and “limited atonement”.

 

[Sufjon]

Friend Sufjon, there are Christian groups…mostly Calvinistic/Reformed that have a view of “limited atonement”…God destines some people to salvation…and some to damnation and nothing one can do will change one’s fate…there is no “willful choice” involved…God is Soverign and He and He alone decides who is to be “saved”. Mostly this is taught in one of it’s modified foms in the Reformed or Baptist traditions…there are some Baptists who reject “election” and “limited atonement” and call themselves “Free Will Baptists”.

Most Christians I believe hold a doctrine of “free will” rather than “election”, “eternal security of the believer” and “limited atonement”.

Thank you Publisher. I had always wondered about that. It’s one of those things that you think about for while after you drive by a church that says “free will” and then forget about it later when you get out of the car. I’ve probably been wondering about that for twenty years or so! As for my other question, I’ll probably be banging my head on it for some time. Thanks very much.

 

[faithfully]

I once read something with regard to free will, and whether or not you had any. And it’s usually sited, it seems, that If God knows your outcome, then how could it be that you have free will? As if it’s already planned out, and you have no say.

The answer was given in terms that made sense to me Not sure, I"ll be so good at explaining. Basically, you have choices to make, and basically God knows how you will make them, because he is all knowing. In the same way that you can go to weather.com, put in your zip and see whether or not you should go surfing. Knowing what the weather is going to do, does nothing to “control” the weather. But the “all knowing” (LOL) internet gives you that insight. And God basically knows if you’re crazy enough to go surfing in a huricane, without “controlling” whether or not you do.

Anyhow, that’s my take. We’re still responsible for our actions…

 

[Sufjon]

I once read something with regard to free will, and whether or not you had any. And it’s usually sited, it seems, that If God knows your outcome, then how could it be that you have free will? As if it’s already planned out, and you have no say.

The answer was given in terms that made sense to me Not sure, I"ll be so good at explaining. Basically, you have choices to make, and basically God knows how you will make them, because he is all knowing. In the same way that you can go to weather.com, put in your zip and see whether or not you should go surfing. Knowing what the weather is going to do, does nothing to “control” the weather. But the “all knowing” (LOL) internet gives you that insight. And God basically knows if you’re crazy enough to go surfing in a huricane, without “controlling” whether or not you do.

Anyhow, that’s my take. We’re still responsible for our actions…

Hi Faithfully. First, thank you for your kind response.I understand your explanation, and it’s well reasoned. That may in fact be the way it is, and I follow your idea. It still leaves me with other questions on the matter on a few other levels. I’m not trying to throw more problems into the solution, but they’re matters that cause me a lot of puzzlement, and you can imagine how that can be a problem for someone who is looking for answers. I know what I’d like the answers to be, but unfortunately I really don’t know. Some of the questions would be I guess a religious level, but some are on a more practical or theoretical level.

On a religious level maybe you can tell me more of your thoughts on those, if you want to that is. As you can see, this is a long and drawn-out thing I’m trying to deal with in my mind, so if it tries your patience I will surely understand. One of them is this. If God knew billions of years before I came to this life how it would turn out, and loves me, why would He not reach me in some way that He knows would work? He would know which ways would work and which wouldn’t. Some might say, well He sent Jesus, didn’t He? If He did, then He would know how many people would be saved by that event. He would also have to know how many and precisely who would not. Giving a chance that helped some shows a willingness to help, or a desire for a particular outcome, but what about the others? Like you said, if He knew I was crazy enough to surf in a hurricane and sounded an alarm that could be heard by people who happened not to be too far into the surf, then why not a flare for the ones who happened to be further out or maybe under water at the time? All of them were crazy enough to swim in a hurricane, yet some were helped in a way they could hear, while others were helped in a way they could not.

If you have thoughts on that it wold be great. If not, I do want to thank you though for what you shared already. It was very thoughtful.

 

[Third_Day]

One can read theology books on whether or not we have free will that will make your head explode yet Thomas Aquinas settles the issue so simply:

Aquinas: Of Free Will
“I answer that, Man has free-will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain.”

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Some of these churches have the term Free Will in their names. Here is the question: I’ve never seen a church that said anything contrary to free will in their names, and I haven’t heard any Christians claim to believe anything other than free will.

Most of those are fundamentalist Baptist groups for the most part. I once saw a funny blog post where someone posted cliche church names for specific denominations, with “free will” and “grapevine” being two for that group.

This leads me to the question, which is in two parts, the first as to whether there are denominations that don’t believe in free will.

If you mean libertarian free will, then there are several: Presbyterian USA (traditionally), Presbyterian Church of America, Orthodox Presbyterian Church (pretty much any Presbyterian church), Reformed Baptist churches, Dutch Reformed churches, etc. In some parts of the world, such as in England, there are Calvinist Methodist churches (one of the founders of Methodism, George Whitefield, was a Calvinist).

 

[faithfully]

Hi Faithfully. First, thank you for your kind response.I understand your explanation, and it’s well reasoned. That may in fact be the way it is, and I follow your idea. It still leaves me with other questions on the matter on a few other levels. I’m not trying to throw more problems into the solution, but they’re matters that cause me a lot of puzzlement, and you can imagine how that can be a problem for someone who is looking for answers. I know what I’d like the answers to be, but unfortunately I really don’t know. Some of the questions would be I guess a religious level, but some are on a more practical or theoretical level.

On a religious level maybe you can tell me more of your thoughts on those, if you want to that is. As you can see, this is a long and drawn-out thing I’m trying to deal with in my mind, so if it tries your patience I will surely understand. One of them is this. If God knew billions of years before I came to this life how it would turn out, and loves me, why would He not reach me in some way that He knows would work? He would know which ways would work and which wouldn’t. Some might say, well He sent Jesus, didn’t He? If He did, then He would know how many people would be saved by that event. He would also have to know how many and precisely who would not. Giving a chance that helped some shows a willingness to help, or a desire for a particular outcome, but what about the others? Like you said, if He knew I was crazy enough to surf in a hurricane and sounded an alarm that could be heard by people who happened not to be too far into the surf, then why not a flare for the ones who happened to be further out or maybe under water at the time? All of them were crazy enough to swim in a hurricane, yet some were helped in a way they could hear, while others were helped in a way they could not.

If you have thoughts on that it wold be great. If not, I do want to thank you though for what you shared already. It was very thoughtful.

Off the cuff, I think about that person who IS crazy enough to surf in a hurricane. Ok, that’s not me. I’m not a GREAT swimmer… etc. But that person may survive that. And that person may have an experience within God’s creation of the Ocean, Wind and Waves that I’ll never have… and perhaps that their person needs. That person may be the type to go climb Mt. Everest. Putting their bodies and minds through different realities. Is that a bad thing? In human terms, only if they die. But is THAT a bad thing? It’s certainly painful to be the one left behind isn’t it? But would you honestly, KNOWINGLY bring a person BACK to you AWAY from perfection?

I think we could easily get into “What’s the point?” And I don’t really know. I have ideas. And I’m probably not great at articulating them. I suspect we won’t know until we get to the other side. In the mean time, I function on what I know God expects of me, and then also enjoying the ride. Bike Ride with God is one of my favorite poems that gets me through the here and now.

Let me tell you, I’m a Catholic by birth. I went to Catholic School etc. But I don’t know half of what I should. I somehow missed out on all the Guilt and Shame, that you hear people talking about. I have always felt that I’m a child of God, given a set of directions and upbringing, and told “go for it.” God being the ultimate parent offers guidance, but doesn’t seem to nag (No Flares!), He may be dissappointed but extends forgiveness, where let’s face it, I would have a hard time doing. Why in the world must some of us endure things that we wouldn’t wish on our worst enemy? I’m not sure. Why must a child suffer? No CLUE! But I’ve seen what greatness we as humans are capable of when we see someone suffering. When the sufferer shows us something/ a passion otherwise not seen. It’s amazing. I’m in Awe a lot.

Have you ever met a person who “has it all?” Health, $$, House, Trophy spouse… but they are miserable. WHY??? I don’t think they even know. I don’t think many even know what REAL misery is. I know I have NO IDEA what it’s like to be starving to death etc. But I can’t imagine, dying and that’s it. Just dirt. Or worse, burning for eternity. UMMMM… that’s GOT TO BE REAL misery!

But we are told, for example that angels are perfect. (Not God, obviously), and look at what happens when you HAVE IT ALL, perhaps without ever experiencing NOT having it all on SOME level, you question even HEAVEN. You throw a fit… and well, you get cast down, and battle God for souls… I mean, seriously, didn’t SATAN originally have it made. Wasn’t he originally given everything, warned of everything? Maybe had it NOT been so easy???

I don’t know. I think as much as I love to ponder this sort of stuff. And I love to learn more. The reality is, we’re here, with our own individual personality and more importantly, our own individual SOUL, getting it ready to accept just how amazing Heaven is… But getting read to be accepted… HOPEFULLY!

No solid answers. Sorry… just things to think about. And of course, open to more!

 

[Sufjon]

Off the cuff, I think about that person who IS crazy enough to surf in a hurricane. Ok, that’s not me. I’m not a GREAT swimmer… etc. But that person may survive that. And that person may have an experience within God’s creation of the Ocean, Wind and Waves that I’ll never have… and perhaps that their person needs. That person may be the type to go climb Mt. Everest. Putting their bodies and minds through different realities. Is that a bad thing? In human terms, only if they die. But is THAT a bad thing? It’s certainly painful to be the one left behind isn’t it? But would you honestly, KNOWINGLY bring a person BACK to you AWAY from perfection?

I think we could easily get into “What’s the point?” And I don’t really know. I have ideas. And I’m probably not great at articulating them. I suspect we won’t know until we get to the other side. In the mean time, I function on what I know God expects of me, and then also enjoying the ride. Bike Ride with God is one of my favorite poems that gets me through the here and now.

Let me tell you, I’m a Catholic by birth. I went to Catholic School etc. But I don’t know half of what I should. I somehow missed out on all the Guilt and Shame, that you hear people talking about. I have always felt that I’m a child of God, given a set of directions and upbringing, and told “go for it.” God being the ultimate parent offers guidance, but doesn’t seem to nag (No Flares!), He may be dissappointed but extends forgiveness, where let’s face it, I would have a hard time doing. Why in the world must some of us endure things that we wouldn’t wish on our worst enemy? I’m not sure. Why must a child suffer? No CLUE! But I’ve seen what greatness we as humans are capable of when we see someone suffering. When the sufferer shows us something/ a passion otherwise not seen. It’s amazing. I’m in Awe a lot.

Have you ever met a person who “has it all?” Health, $$, House, Trophy spouse… but they are miserable. WHY??? I don’t think they even know. I don’t think many even know what REAL misery is. I know I have NO IDEA what it’s like to be starving to death etc. But I can’t imagine, dying and that’s it. Just dirt. Or worse, burning for eternity. UMMMM… that’s GOT TO BE REAL misery!

But we are told, for example that angels are perfect. (Not God, obviously), and look at what happens when you HAVE IT ALL, perhaps without ever experiencing NOT having it all on SOME level, you question even HEAVEN. You throw a fit… and well, you get cast down, and battle God for souls… I mean, seriously, didn’t SATAN originally have it made. Wasn’t he originally given everything, warned of everything? Maybe had it NOT been so easy???

I don’t know. I think as much as I love to ponder this sort of stuff. And I love to learn more. The reality is, we’re here, with our own individual personality and more importantly, our own individual SOUL, getting it ready to accept just how amazing Heaven is… But getting read to be accepted… HOPEFULLY!

No solid answers. Sorry… just things to think about. And of course, open to more!

Thanks again Faithfully. I know it’s a hard thing to ponder, much less answer. I do like the way you think though. Sounds like maybe one day I’ll hear the signal from way out here past the surf. I’d like to think so.

 

[Sufjon]

Most of those are fundamentalist Baptist groups for the most part. I once saw a funny blog post where someone posted cliche church names for specific denominations, with “free will” and “grapevine” being two for that group.

If you mean libertarian free will, then there are several: Presbyterian USA (traditionally), Presbyterian Church of America, Orthodox Presbyterian Church (pretty much any Presbyterian church), Reformed Baptist churches, Dutch Reformed churches, etc. In some parts of the world, such as in England, there are Calvinist Methodist churches (one of the founders of Methodism, George Whitefield, was a Calvinist).

Thanks Byzantine Wolf. Sounds like your answer supports the answer from Publisher as well. It’s looking like there are a couple of views on free will in Christian thought, one being more predominant than the other. Thanks again.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

I’m interested in the idea of free will. I can’t say whether there is such a thing or if there isn’t. I’m only looking for answers. Would anyone care to share their thoughts or provide some guidance?

Good question. I can’t speak for others but for me I’m not sure if I have free will. I don’t think I have it in the sense that the accusers use it. But I think I’m free to seek God’s will or to search for what God wants from me. But when I find out what He wants I don’t think I’ll be free to do whatever God wants me to do in the same way that God is free to do whatever He wants to do. So if I have got some kind of “free will” I guess I maybe need to put some sort of qualification on it to correctly define it?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Thanks Byzantine Wolf. Sounds like your answer supports the answer from Publisher as well. It’s looking like there are a couple of views on free will in Christian thought, one being more predominant than the other. Thanks again.

One small correction to Publisher’s post, however: these churches don’t believe one is “predestined” to damnation; rather, mankind lives in a state headed to damnation, but God predestines some for salvation. It’s a common misunderstanding some people make.

 

[Sufjon]

Good question. I can’t speak for others but for me I’m not sure if I have free will. I don’t think I have it in the sense that the accusers use it. But I think I’m free to seek God’s will or to search for what God wants from me. But when I find out what He wants I don’t think I’ll be free to do whatever God wants me to do in the same way that God is free to do whatever He wants to do. So if I have got some kind of “free will” I guess I maybe need to put some sort of qualification on it to correctly define it?

Hi UniversalistGuy: I agree with you that there have to be qualifications or limitations to the amount of free will we can have. I’m leaning toward the idea that if it exists, it may actually be more limited than we commonly think.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

One small correction to Publisher’s post, however: these churches don’t believe one is “predestined” to damnation; rather, mankind lives in a state headed to damnation, but God predestines some for salvation. It’s a common misunderstanding some people make.

One small correction to your post. Some individuals, including some pastors, do believe that God predestines some people to damnation. I respect their beliefs but it sure ain’t my idea of a loving God.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

One small correction to your post. Some individuals, including some pastors, do believe that God predestines some people to damnation. I respect their beliefs but it sure ain’t my idea of a loving God.

Yes - individuals everywhere believe individual things. That does not make them orthodox to the historical understanding of a doctrine. It’s like responding to someone quoting the Catechism with, “Well some individual Catholics believe this.” That’ wonderful, but what does the church or group of churches believe? That’s how we define a theology, not what individuals say of their own accord.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

Hi UniversalistGuy: I agree with you that there have to be qualifications or limitations to the amount of free will we can have. I’m leaning toward the idea that if it exists, it may actually be more limited than we commonly think.

I’m glad you agree.

Do you read much Bible? There’s a place in Romans where Paul says this:

I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

So Paul realized his “free will” was hampered or limited. Don’t you think so?

 

[UniversalistGuy]

UniversalistGuy;6999141:

One small correction to your post. Some individuals, including some pastors, do believe that God predestines some people to damnation. I respect their beliefs but it sure ain’t my idea of a loving God.

Yes - individuals everywhere believe individual things. That does not make them orthodox to the historical understanding of a doctrine. It’s like responding to someone quoting the Catechism with, “Well some individual Catholics believe this.” That’ wonderful, but what does the church or group of churches believe? That’s how we define a theology, not what individuals say of their own accord.

But at what point do individuals become the church or group of churches? When there are enough of them, right? So if there are a whole bunch of individuals and they all agree that God predestines some people to damnation then they are the church or even group of churches and they have their theology all defined and ready to go, right? The people who believe this of God argue that it’s true based on what the Bible says so to them that makes it orthodox and historical.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

But at what point do individuals become the church or group of churches? When there are enough of them, right? So if there are a whole bunch of individuals and they all agree that God predestines some people to damnation then they are the church or even group of churches and they have their theology all defined and ready to go, right? The people who believe this of God argue that it’s true based on what the Bible says so to them that makes it orthodox and historical.

Groups define themselves. The Roman Catholic Catechism, the Westminster Confession, the Seven Ecumenical Councils, the London Baptist Confession of 1689, etc. The minute they stray from those doctrines they are entering the realm of their own personal belief. For example, someone who claims to be a Sunni Muslim but believes in the Twelve Imams has strayed from traditional Sunni doctrine. This kind of false individualism never became an issue until the past 100 years with the slow introduction of post-modern thought, where there are no definitions for anything.

Most of those people, by the way, are known as hypercalvinists. They’re not considered orthodox by most Reform folks, precisely because they don’t hold to the historical doctrines of grace.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

Groups define themselves. The Roman Catholic Catechism, the Westminster Confession, the Seven Ecumenical Councils, the London Baptist Confession of 1689, etc. The minute they stray from those doctrines they are entering the realm of their own personal belief. For example, someone who claims to be a Sunni Muslim but believes in the Twelve Imams has strayed from traditional Sunni doctrine. This kind of false individualism never became an issue until the past 100 years with the slow introduction of post-modern thought, where there are no definitions for anything.

Most of those people, by the way, are known as hypercalvinists. They’re not considered orthodox by most Reform folks, precisely because they don’t hold to the historical doctrines of grace.

OK, thanks. But if groups define themselves how can an outsider know which of the groups if any have the right to claim that they alone are authentic? If the hypercalvinists are not considered orthodox by most Reform folks I guess most Reform folks are not considered orthodox by the hypercalvinists? Would the considerations of most Reform folks carry more weight than the considerations of the hypercalvinists? If so, why? Which group has the authority to pronounce on the matter?

Sorry I’ve just realized I’m off the topic. I apologize to the OP.

But I decided to post it anyway.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

OK, thanks. But if groups define themselves how can an outsider know which of the groups if any have the right to claim that they alone are authentic? If the hypercalvinists are not considered orthodox by most Reform folks I guess most Reform folks are not considered orthodox by the hypercalvinists? Would the considerations of most Reform folks carry more weight than the considerations of the hypercalvinists? If so, why? Which group has the authority to pronounce on the matter?

Well again, we have to then review the historical development of the group and the doctrine. To go back to the Sunni/Shia example, Sunni beliefs are well documented and well known, so a person who upholds Shia beliefs can be exposed (for lack of a better word). This isn’t a case of two groups saying “We’re right,” it’s a case of one group demonstrating they’re right.