Free Will

[AndyP]

Hi,

Just had a discussion with one of my sons.

How can we know if we have been given 100% free will?
My answer was “I don’t know”.

How would we know?

Andy

 

[black_sphere]

Your answer was correct. Like you I don’t know for sure either, but I have my reasons to believe we have been given absolute free will. And I’m sure you have your reasons as well. So explain those to your son.

 

[Greenfields]

The topic caught my eye as my own daughter asked about free will some time back.
Her question was do we really have free will if God knows our future and it’s kind of preordained.It’s one that I couldn’t give a clear answer on and some one might be able to shed some light here too,I hope the OP doesn’t mind -it is linked ,and children want clear answers which is a good thing.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

Hi,

Just had a discussion with one of my sons.

How can we know if we have been given 100% free will?
My answer was “I don’t know”.

How would we know?

Andy

Along my life I sometimes have been in certain situations in which I have asked myself: “what I am going to do now?” My course of action is not determined and I know it, but at the same time I realize that *I have to *make a decision, and I know too that I will be responsible for my actions. This kind of paradoxical experience is what comes to my mind when I say that I am free. Several possibilities open up in front of me and I have to be creative. Haven’t you had similar experiences?

I don’t think free will is something which can be demonstrated rationally. We can demonstrate rationally things which are deterministic, but not free will.

Does your son deny that he is responsible for his actions?

 

[mikekle]

In my opinion, 100% real free will would be totally unlimited, there would be no right/ wrong, everything would be neutral, it would not be limited to our earthly physical bodies and ‘expire’ (taken away) when we die. If our souls are really who we are, then ultimately the version of free will we are given is really only good for our earthly bodies and lives, not our eternal existence.

If we truly had free will, it would extend to our immortal existence as well…if all of us will live on for eternity somewhere, what would be wrong with us having and being able to exercise free will there as well? a normal lifespan on earth is pretty short compared to eternity, why is it against the rules to exercise free will billions of years into the afterlife if we so desired, its our free will after all?

 

[thephilosopher6]

Free will exist along with causation. We are put into different types of situations because of it and there we chose what path to take.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

In my opinion, 100% real free will would be totally unlimited, there would be no right/ wrong, everything would be neutral, it would not be limited to our earthly physical bodies and ‘expire’ (taken away) when we die. If our souls are really who we are, then ultimately the version of free will we are given is really only good for our earthly bodies and lives, not our eternal existence.

If we truly had free will, it would extend to our immortal existence as well…if all of us will live on for eternity somewhere, what would be wrong with us having and being able to exercise free will there as well? a normal lifespan on earth is pretty short compared to eternity, why is it against the rules to exercise free will billions of years into the afterlife if we so desired, its our free will after all?

What do you mean, Mikekle? What would be, for instance, 99% real free will?

 

[Strydersroom]

if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
I will choose free will.

/Rush rules

 

[Bradski]

Along my life I sometimes have been in certain situations in which I have asked myself: “what I am going to do now?” My course of action is not determined and I know it, but at the same time I realize that *I have to *make a decision…

But yet you do make a decision. Free will means that under the same circumstances you could make a different decision.

If the exact conditions were repeated, and you make the same decision, then it denies free will.

If the exact conditions were repeated and you make a different decision, then it is arbitrary. Nothing changed. Literally nothing, including your mental state, changed.

If you say that your mental state would be different, even if all conditions were exactly the same, then you are saying that your mental state is independent of any conditions.

 

[Nyx]

I would vote for a very limited free will. This is because our choices are influenced by countless factors: past experience and similar choices in the past (with different results), personality traits, our economical situation, our intellectual capacity to think of different ways to resolve a problem, our moral code, the cultural/social context, role-models, social status etc.

So, from the theoretically countless way of action we might have when faced a problem, we might end up thinking of a few different ones (depending on our intellectual capacity, creativity, etc). From these ones some will be rejected immediately (sometimes even before we become conscious of them) because they might go totally against our moral code, against the social expectations, we did the same in a very similar situation and the result was bad, would have serious negative consequences, we don’t have sufficient resources etc.
If we still have more than one option we can start the whole process of deciding.

 

[mikekle]

What do you mean, Mikekle? What would be, for instance, 99% real free will?

Well, it would probably be available to use for all eternity, not just for our earthly lives, a ‘gift’ that we can only use while in the physical world makes little sense, since we are immortal beings who will exist for eternity.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

But yet you do make a decision. Free will means that under the same circumstances you could make a different decision.

If the exact conditions were repeated, and you make the same decision, then it denies free will.

If the exact conditions were repeated and you make a different decision, then it is arbitrary. Nothing changed. Literally nothing, including your mental state, changed.

If you say that your mental state would be different, even if all conditions were exactly the same, then you are saying that your mental state is independent of any conditions.

Under the same conditions? If the exact conditions were repeated? I know nothing like that in my human experience. You never experience the same conditions, nor the exact conditions that constitute one of your experiences are ever repeated. I do not recognize your definition of free will.

My “current mental state” (can we talk about a “dynamic state”? because mental “states” are dynamic) is part of the “conditions” that are involved in my decision making, and it is a very important “condition”. So, I would not say that my proximate future “mental state” is independent of any conditions, and I would not say either that it is determined by them. There would be no way for me to support such affirmation.

However, I can say that I have similar experiences from time to time, and that in my decision making I respond to the conditions that describe my situation at a given moment. So, my course of action is not whichever course of action can be proposed in “the abstract” by me or by someone else, but one that responds to my situation. Also, I can say that in similar situations I give similar responses most of the times, though not always.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

Well, it would probably be available to use for all eternity, not just for our earthly lives, a ‘gift’ that we can only use while in the physical world makes little sense, since we are immortal beings who will exist for eternity.

I do not know about eternity, and I try not to fancy about it. All what I know about free will is from this world. There are complex situations which are described by means of this expression, “free will”; and it has nothing to do with any hypothetical decision making in the empty. As a human being I am always involved in situations, and without situations I am simply inconceivable. Free will has to do with human situations; you cannot think of it independently of them; and if you do, you are not thinking of free will.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Hi,

Just had a discussion with one of my sons.

How can we know if we have been given 100% free will?
My answer was “I don’t know”.

How would we know?

Andy

I don’t think we can ever know to what extent our will is free in this life. We don’t know if our decisions are generated 100% by our independent mind/will or by a totality of circumstances in which the decision is made (fate/God’s will, genetics, history, physical or moral weakness, failings; fear; impulse). Besides, the human brain/mind itself functions according to physical laws beyond our comprehension. (also likely spiritual laws, grace)

I believe in basic freedom in things like whether you drink coffee or tea, have eggs or cereal for breakfast, watch one movie instead of another, buy a Honda instead of a Toyota, wear tennis shoes or flip flops to the store. But on moral issues - why you don’t steal from the store or your neighbor, or why those of us who do steal from the store or our neighbor do - who knows. (Would you do so if you knew you would not get caught, no one would know?)

I believe we have moral freedom through grace. (But to complicate that, I also accept that we live in a world of situational ethics - if you are starving it is ok to steal bread; if someone is dying and looks sick and horrible, it is ok to say to him/her that he/she looks well. If it’s Sunday and you need to rescue the sheep from the well, do so.)

Sometimes I question whether God has not asked too much of man here -making him free in terms of human existence. Does man have the grace and strength to freely choose and act for the good against his own will? Reason (world history; human psychology) to me concludes no. You can make a case many of us are set up to fail, and/or to be perennially forgiven if you prefer.

Good news - if you see linear time as a momentary, here-now illusion, and look at the totality of being from the perspective of eternity (“beyond time” for our atheist friends), you still have the potential of freedom playing itself out *to accomplish *providence or fate. (You do still alternatively have a perfectly predestined set up, admittedly.) But could predestination not just be an appearance of what is actually freely accomplished being in its totality? We don’t understand the full extent of interconnectedness - the butterfly wing flapping in Texas - someone eats an orange in Australia. This works through time as well. It is a symphony. Very likely a free one to some extent, within probability, order, laws.

I choose to believe in free will because it accords with the good and human dignity, the existence of which at least to me can be known 100% in this world. I accept freedom on faith really as an inherent part of that package. If you take freedom out of the equation, I think you undermine human dignity and the good beyond repair or significance. I do not accept that this is the case - this would be irrational and untrue. So, yes, we have limited freedom. Makes more sense than the robotic, predestined (or meaningless necessity) argument. I stop there.

 

[AndyP]

Thank you for your replies everyone.

I will study them carefully.

 

[kentcara2003]

Hi Andy

As catholics, we are blessed to have the Cathechism of the Catholic Church.(CCC)

For your query, from the CCC, Nos.1730 onwards speaks abt:
Man’s Freedom,Freedom and responsibility, Human freedom in the economy of salvation…

They are a good grounding. I do encourage you to get the CCC so that you can have a sure point of reference of the Faith. By your coming to this website is an good indication your are led by the Spirit.

I most heartily recommend the following.:
“Grace” by Garrigou Lagrange OP. I would not suggst reading it from cover to cover but as a reference and a more profound understanding of the perfect reconcilation of God’s sovereign power and the freedom of our will in spite of the aforementioned. Someone mentioned of this difficulty in one of the postings whose daughter poses such a paradox. You may get it from Amazon.com

The topics from the book about sufficient grace and efficient grace would help you understanding yet not without mystery(in our explanation of the Will of God, there has to be a point where our intellect can go no further and is shrouded in mystery, yet open to contemplation.) It would take a few readings over and over again to get the glimpses of the truth and you may finally get it one day and it will have a profound effect in your life as it did mine. This is intellectually hard work but not without its concommittant joy!

I also recommendthe following from the internet:“marcus grodi the journey home”, type Scott Hahn,Karl Keatings’Catholicism and Fundamentalism"., CS Lewis, “Merely Christianity”(non catholic), GK chesterton, and many more as your type out these names you will get to good links but unfortunately bad links as well. Pray and ask your guardian angel to assist you to grow to be able to defend intellectually the Catholic Faith.

You and yours always in my prayers.

God bless.
Kentcara2003

 

[Bradski]

Under the same conditions? If the exact conditions were repeated? I know nothing like that in my human experience. You never experience the same conditions, nor the exact conditions that constitute one of your experiences are ever repeated. I do not recognize your definition of free will.

If the conditions and your mental state change then one would assume that any decision you make, being dependent upon the conditions and your mental state, would also change.

Free will, at least as I understand the term, means that you have more than one choice in any given situation and you could freely choose any one. So if you are thirsty and it!s a hot day, you might choose to have a beer. If you are thirsty and it’s a cold day, you might decide to have a coffee. But how can we tell if these are free will decisions?

The conditions and your mental state will never, in reality, be exactly the same, so it is impossible to tell in any given situation. But if we were to imagine the conditions and your mental state as being EXACTLY the same, then could you choose differently?

Conditions + State of mind = decision.

C + S = D

If C and S are always the same, then so is D. Therefore C and S determine D. There are no other options. Any given set of circumstances plus a given state of mind will result in only one decision being made. That is, you don’t get to choose, independently of C and S, what D will be. You have no choice.

 

[Nyx]

If the conditions and your mental state change then one would assume that any decision you make, being dependent upon the conditions and your mental state, would also change.

Free will, at least as I understand the term, means that you have more than one choice in any given situation and you could freely choose any one. So if you are thirsty and it!s a hot day, you might choose to have a beer. If you are thirsty and it’s a cold day, you might decide to have a coffee. But how can we tell if these are free will decisions?

The conditions and your mental state will never, in reality, be exactly the same, so it is impossible to tell in any given situation. But if we were to imagine the conditions and your mental state as being EXACTLY the same, then could you choose differently?

Conditions + State of mind = decision.

C + S = D

If C and S are always the same, then so is D. Therefore C and S determine D. There are no other options. Any given set of circumstances plus a given state of mind will result in only one decision being made. That is, you don’t get to choose, independently of C and S, what D will be. You have no choice.

There once was an interesting debate (although some would say pretty morbid). It started with the case of a man who killed his wife in a so called “passion crime”. He claimed that till the point he actually shot her, he was aware that the “sanest” thing he could do is to walk away. But he didn’t.

The question was- if there would be a way to turn back the time and have him relive the same situation could the end result be different? Him walking away. Or no matter how many times that scene would be relieved his actions would be the same.

 

[o_mlly]

Hi,

Just had a discussion with one of my sons.

How can we know if we have been given 100% free will?
My answer was “I don’t know”.

How would we know?

Andy

If “free will” means the constant disposition to do good. Then the answer I think would be, No. If “free will” means that all human acts are subjective, that is, ultimately decided by the subject or actor, the answer would be, Yes.

We are free to choose but influenced by intellect, passions and conscience—fallen reason, illumined by Omniscience. All three inform my free will and assist to determine the “right” relationships I ought to pursue with others, the world, and God.

The “human condition” seeks salvation, seeks the “right” relationship with our Creator. Over time efficient grace informs and forms our conscience to direct the will to choose to be and do good. When our disposition is such that when facing a human act we habitually choose the good we are in a state of sanctifying grace and then we are truly free. When we have a truly free will our passions are ordered to our intellect and our intellect is ordered to our informed conscience. An informed conscience is a conscience ordered to God’s will.

 

[FollowChrist34]

If “free will” means the constant disposition to do good. Then the answer I think would be, No. If “free will” means that all human acts are subjective, that is, ultimately decided by the subject or actor, the answer would be, Yes.

We are free to choose but influenced by intellect, passions and conscience—fallen reason, illumined by Omniscience. All three inform my free will and assist to determine the “right” relationships I ought to pursue with others, the world, and God.

The “human condition” seeks salvation, seeks the “right” relationship with our Creator. Over time efficient grace informs and forms our conscience to direct the will to choose to be and do good. When our disposition is such that when facing a human act we habitually choose the good we are in a state of sanctifying grace and then we are truly free. When we have a truly free will our passions are ordered to our intellect and our intellect is ordered to our informed conscience. An informed conscience is a conscience ordered to God’s will.

Why in your view do so many of us fail to achieve this state of sanctifying grace / informed conscience? I refer to world history, or even the history of Christianity and/or its present state in the world.