Free Will

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What is your understanding of Free Will?

Catholics believe we have free will, correct?

Lutherans don’t believe we do, WHY? explain.

What is the understanding of free will from other protestant groups?
 
the only Lutherans I know do believe in free will, although I know many of those in denominations from the reformed tradition, such as presbyterians, who do not, and retain a Calvinist understanding of predestination. I don’t think the discussion will avail much unless we have some citations from actual Lutheran preachers or theologians.
 
Accordingly, Article 18 of the Augsburg Confession (“Freedom of the Will”) states:
It is also taught among us that man possesses some measure of freedom of the will which enables him to live an outwardly honorable life and to make choices among the things that reason comprehends. But without the grace, help, and activity of the Holy Spirit man is not capable of making himself acceptable to God, of fearing God and believing in God with his whole heart, or of expelling inborn evil lusts from his heart. This is accomplished by the Holy Spirit, who is given through the Word of God, for Paul says in 1 Cor. 2:14, “Natural man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God.” This is where I am confused on what the Lutheran teaches.
So free will to do some things in our lives, but not to choose God’s ways? Is that right?

This is tied in with my post about faith (Ephesians 2:8).
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=123471

Do Catholics believe we have the free will to accept or reject this gift of “saving faith”? or do we simply recieve it?
 
What is your understanding of Free Will?

Catholics believe we have free will, correct?

Lutherans don’t believe we do, WHY? explain.

What is the understanding of free will from other protestant groups?
What is free will? If you mean to make choices according to our kind then of course we have free will. But we do not have absolute free will. Dogs have free will according to their kind but it is limited. We are likewise limited.

I think Catholics of a molinist persuasion (as opposed to Thomists) over-emphasize free will. It tends to take away from God’s will and grace and at it’s worst border on pelagianism. A will must be enabled by God first to make a free choice. Grace is enabling and precedes choice. One cannot make a truly free choice on matters of faith without the Holy Spirit first quickening ones spirit to do so. The dead can do nothing. One must be made alive first.
 
What is free will? If you mean to make choices according to our kind then of course we have free will. But we do not have absolute free will. Dogs have free will according to their kind but it is limited. We are likewise limited.

I think Catholics of a molinist persuasion (as opposed to Thomists) over-emphasize free will. It tends to take away from God’s will and grace and at it’s worst border on pelagianism. A will must be enabled by God first to make a free choice. Grace is enabling and precedes choice. One cannot make a truly free choice on matters of faith without the Holy Spirit first quickening ones spirit to do so. The dead can do nothing. One must be made alive first.
Good response. This is my understanding of the issue as well.
 
What is free will? If you mean to make choices according to our kind then of course we have free will. But we do not have absolute free will. Dogs have free will according to their kind but it is limited. We are likewise limited.

I think Catholics of a molinist persuasion (as opposed to Thomists) over-emphasize free will. It tends to take away from God’s will and grace and at it’s worst border on pelagianism. A will must be enabled by God first to make a free choice. Grace is enabling and precedes choice. One cannot make a truly free choice on matters of faith without the Holy Spirit first quickening ones spirit to do so. The dead can do nothing. One must be made alive first.
Okay, so you have to be Christian to make a choice of your own free will according to you, but then how does one make the decision to convert? If I’m a non-christian then I don’t have the choice to convert, I’m stuck predestined on my path to damnation?
Feel free to correct me if I interpreted it wrong, but to me it sounds kind of biased and Calvanistic.
 
Okay, so you have to be Christian to make a choice of your own free will according to you, but then how does one make the decision to convert? If I’m a non-christian then I don’t have the choice to convert, I’m stuck predestined on my path to damnation?
Feel free to correct me if I interpreted it wrong, but to me it sounds kind of biased and Calvanistic.
You’re misunderstanding. God chooses. We do not choose God. Our choice, by nature, is to reject God. We are culpable before God for our enmity against Him, but we do not “choose” God.

And actually this position is known broadly as “Augustinianism”. Luther and Calvin were students of Augustine. The problem for modern Catholics, as noted earlier, is that most of you labor under a misapprehension known as “Molinism” which puts too high a stress on the ability of humans to make free choices vis’a’vis salvation. Augustinian Catholic theology, which is in the minority these days, does not make this mistake.
 
You’re misunderstanding. God chooses. We do not choose God. Our choice, by nature, is to reject God. We are culpable before God for our enmity against Him, but we do not “choose” God.

And actually this position is known broadly as “Augustinianism”. Luther and Calvin were students of Augustine. The problem for modern Catholics, as noted earlier, is that most of you labor under a misapprehension known as “Molinism” which puts too high a stress on the ability of humans to make free choices vis’a’vis salvation. Augustinian Catholic theology, which is in the minority these days, does not make this mistake.
To start with, Maybe you should click on my name and see my religion…
Okay, so:
God chooses who will be enlightened. these people will obviously be in said denomination, saved and able to make free choices. Correct?
 
What is your understanding of Free Will?

Catholics believe we have free will, correct?

Lutherans don’t believe we do, WHY? explain.

What is the understanding of free will from other protestant groups?
In one sense one can’t have a will that is contrary to God’s.

God’s will must win out.

However God is love. In love He gives us a perfect gift. It is to love Him, or not. That is the choice. It is free… for God, out of love would not give us a meaningless gift.

As such it has true consequences. By this I mean it would be pointless to offer us choices a), b) and c) if the result was the same. That would not then be a ‘choice’.

In this case the choice is either to be part of God, or to be excluded from God. We call these things ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’.
 
To start with, Maybe you should click on my name and see my religion…
Okay, so:
God chooses who will be enlightened. these people will obviously be in said denomination, saved and able to make free choices. Correct?
Okay. You’re Buddhist, or at least inclined in that direction.

God does not choose who will be “enlightened”. He chooses those who will be saved. Having chosen them He changes their nature from one which willfully hates and rejects Him to one which willingly loves Him and seeks to conform their will to His.

Within the Augustinian tradition (whether Roman Catholic or Protestant) there is an explicit rejection of the concept of free will as that term is usually understood. That is to say, because humans are born at enmity with God–their wills are wholly at variance with God–they will never of their own free choice choose to worship God. They will create some sort of religious faith of their own choosing, some sort of ‘safe’ religion which pleases them and ultimately enshrines them in the place which appropriately belongs only to God Almighty.

The confusing thing for many, initially, is that God does not make His choices based upon any innate goodness in those whom He elects, nor because of some sort of innate undesirableness in those whom He condemns. ALL human righteousness is as filthy rags in God’s eyes, all of it tainted with human sin and selfishness. He is not more impressed with the merely-human goodness of a Mother Teresa or of a Billy Graham than He is with the abject wickedness of an Adolf Hitler or Timothy McVeigh. If Billy Graham or Mother Teresa are acting in complete disregard to the will of God in their works of preaching or of mercy, then their works are no more acceptable to Him than if they had not done them.

Thus, the goodness of a Gautama Buddha, a Lao Tse, of a Nichiren Daishonin, or of a Mahatma Gandhi are of no account in the eyes of God. His standard of righteousness demands absolute perfection from conception to death, and we are forewarned in Scripture that none will achieve such perfection. From a merely-human perspective such people may be relatively better than others, but their relative goodness is not salvific–it does not save. Only God saves and He does so for His own reasons, without respect to the goodness or righteousness of the individual.

HAVING been saved, of course, the Christian is understood to grow in righteousness, to be daily conformed ever more closely to the image of Christ. But increase in righteousness represents an ‘evidence’ of salvation, not a cause of salvation, and not even an absolute proof thereof. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone for the glory of God alone.
 
Hmmm… Thankees for the clarification. Certainly helped a heathen out. 😛

I can understand where you’re coming from with that belief, though I do not hold it myself. I personally believe that everyone has a free will to do what they want, be it good or evil in their eyes or the eyes of others. Though I do not worship god in the same way you do, I do nonetheless believe in him in my own way. I believe that there is something greater than myself that exists in the world. It is what I call the Tao, maybe the same thing that you call god, I know not. besides, that’s something for another thread or pm’s if it’s to be discussed.

Regardless, I believe that people are called to certain ways of life and thinking. I have no explanation of how or why, but i choose to believe that there is something everyone should be doing, or at least that everyone has something that calls to them. The free will is being able to go with what feels right or to deny that urge.

Thanks again for helping out 😃
 
I think I agree with you here. Seems perfectly acceptable to me.🙂

I cant be damned for not doing something I did not know was a damnable thing.

So, when I held OSAS as a Protestant, I did it in ignorance.

I am still ignorant, but thankfully the Church is not, so I can take a nap and get back to being ignorant.
What is free will? If you mean to make choices according to our kind then of course we have free will. But we do not have absolute free will. Dogs have free will according to their kind but it is limited. We are likewise limited.

I think Catholics of a molinist persuasion (as opposed to Thomists) over-emphasize free will. It tends to take away from God’s will and grace and at it’s worst border on pelagianism. A will must be enabled by God first to make a free choice. Grace is enabling and precedes choice. One cannot make a truly free choice on matters of faith without the Holy Spirit first quickening ones spirit to do so. The dead can do nothing. One must be made alive first.
 
I think I agree with you here. Seems perfectly acceptable to me.🙂

I cant be damned for not doing something I did not know was a damnable thing.

So, when I held OSAS as a Protestant, I did it in ignorance.

I am still ignorant, but thankfully the Church is not, so I can take a nap and get back to being ignorant.
Actually no one is lost “in ignorance”. Oneiron knows Who the One True God is. He or she simply refuses to obey Him. You knew/know who God is even before you accepted Christ as Savior. Buddha and Confucius and Lao Tse, and the proverbial savage living in the woods who will never meet a single missionary in his or her lives know Who the Living God is. This is the point of Romans chapters 1 and 2: all humans know, by virtue of the light of conscience and by the light of creation who and what God is. Most of us reject Him and displace Him with some ‘god’ of our own choosing, some safe ‘god’ who pleases our fleshly natures, a ‘god’ who is really ourselves writ large. We are by nature at enmity with the true God of Creation, we hate Him at the very core of our very beings, and we want to dethrone Him and enthrone ourselves. That is who we are by nature. And for that reason all of us are justly and condinely sentenced to eternal hell.

God is under no obligation to rescue any of us from that condemnation. We are culpable for our rejection of Him, both corporately because of the Original Sin of Adam which cursed us with our fallen natures; and because of our own personal sins and rebellions. There is a bit of a paradox in all of this: we are not free but we are culpable, we are responsible, we are liable for our sins. How this works out, God has not seen fit to reveal to us, and in fact He condemns those who would question Him on this matter. What we do know is that God is absolutely just. He is absolutely merciful. He is Love, and is not willing that any should perish but would that all should come to repentance. He is absolutely righteous in all His judgements. It is not possible for Him to do wrongly. He has revealed that some will be raised to condemnation and some to eternal life in Christ, and the ordinary understanding of Scripture is that the Elect will be few in relation to the many who will be lost.

I’m not sure what to suggest to read on this subject but try a few of these links:

monergism.com/

str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5130

reformed.org/

You may have to scout around on these sites but at least a few of the articles should address the specific questions at stake.
 
I guess I must be of a Molinist persuasion because there’s so much in the above posts that I strongly disagree with. I think Free Will is de-emphasized too much rather than emphasized too much. :rolleyes:
 
Okay, so you have to be Christian to make a choice of your own free will according to you, but then how does one make the decision to convert? If I’m a non-christian then I don’t have the choice to convert, I’m stuck predestined on my path to damnation?
Feel free to correct me if I interpreted it wrong, but to me it sounds kind of biased and Calvanistic.
You do misunderstand. The non-Christian cannot come to the Father of their own free choice with the quickening of the Holy Spirit. None of us can. I am not a Calvinist but he was not entirely wrong. What is the difference between two unbelievers who hear the gospel and only one receives it? It is not really a matter of the will since belief is not strickly a matter of the will. If we attribute it to the person who believes rather the the Holy Spirit who gives faith then we are in fact saying their was something superior in the one who believes verses the one who does not. We can only understand believers from unbelievers in the context of God’s call and His mercy, not primarily our free will. Of course our will plays a part as we, from a human perspective need to respond to God.

Not all have an equal opportunity therefore we need to take predestination (a Catholic idea, btw) more seriously.Do all have an equal chance to hear the gospel? Of course not. An American is far more likely to be born into a Christian family than a Saudi Arabian. God determines when we will be born, where we will be born, when we will die and a host of other things utterly out of our control. Free will is very limited by the circumstances God puts us in.

As for autonomous free will it does exist. It is a heresy. No man can choose God if God does not first act in that persons life first. He always initiates a relationship first. We can never freely choose God unless he chooses us first. Out free choice is limited to our state. Those of us who are baptized, by God’s predestination, have free will to act within that grace, but not without it.

I hope this clarifies.

Mel
 
I guess I must be of a Molinist persuasion because there’s so much in the above posts that I strongly disagree with. I think Free Will is de-emphasized too much rather than emphasized too much. :rolleyes:
Then you are a molinist. The beauty of the Catholic church is both views are allowed because it is so complex.
 
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