Free will?

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cheddarsox

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I started to start this thread earlier and deleted it. Then, saw a post stating that hell is a logical neccesity due to Free Will, and decided, I’d better go ahead and post.

Free will is a teaching of Christianity and Catholicism, that God is so loving, He lets us choose to love him. If we choose not to love God, who also, due to Free will, cannot fully reveal His glory to us, we will suffer unbelievable torture for all eternity.

I’m missing the logic part here.

How is it logical that we have a choice to believe in an all loving God, counter to our experience, or be tortured for eternity for not being able to believe?

And some say nay, belief is not enough, we must love this God, or suffer for all eternity. And we must love without seeing, or knowing, or experiencing, we must love based on hope that God is what we are told He is.

If I had a parent, who told me I had wonderful free will, but if I chose to do what the parent told me not to, I would be thrown in the basement, in solitary confinement, next to the furnace for the rest of my life. People might not consider that so free. And I would have a hard time loving the parent whom I had to fear so mightily of offending. And indeed, I might try to run away from this parent, rather than think they were the ideal, all loving, picture of perfection.

That is what “logic” tells me.

Hell is not neccessary, at least not by logic.
Free will is bunk. God holds all the cards. ( I believe and am willing to accept that)
Human explanations make God look like a nut. Better let God speak for himself, or remain silent.

I am a hard worker. My supervisor tells me what to do, and I do it. If I am told to do something I cannot or will not do, I quit the job, and don’t get the paycheck.That is free will. But my supervisor does not hunt me down and torture me. I just don’t get the paycheck.
That is logic.

Maybe God is not logical. That is what I believe. The Divine and human logic are not compatible, but Catholicism uses logic as a defense of it’s theology all the time. I can’t seem to figure out how free will, hell an all loving God and logic are connected.

Please help

When it comes to free will
 
Think of God as being the Greatest Terrorist in the Universe.

Knowledgeable Muslims would have no problems at all thinking of the Creator in this light … but most Christians would find this image of God to be just too unimaginable.

Many Christians cannot even bear to think that an all-loving God will send many of His creations to burn in the Hellfire.

Muslims however have no such inhibitions about thinking such “horrifying” thoughts about their Creator because we know that this is just one of His many attributes.
 
hamba2han said:
Think of God as being the Greatest Terrorist in the Universe.

Knowledgeable Muslims would have no problems at all thinking of the Creator in this light … but most Christians would find this image of God to be just too unimaginable.

Many Christians cannot even bear to think that an all-loving God will send many of His creations to burn in the Hellfire.

Muslims however have no such inhibitions about thinking such “horrifying” thoughts about their Creator because we know that this is just one of His many attributes.
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Mat 5:22
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ’ You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:29
If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30
If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 18:9
If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Mark 9:45
"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,

Mark 9:47
" If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell

Ham - we have many passages out of the BIBLE to say we could go to hell, it is completely stupid to say we ‘cannot bare’ to think we have an all loving God that would not send us to hell.
Why do you think we have confession for?? If we do not confess, we will go to hell.
I really think YOU need to do a LOT more research on Christianity.
You do not understand or cannot even comprehend what we understand and think about God and why he would send us to hell. He loves us and would only condemn us for reasons we do not understand.
 
cheddarsox said:
Free will is a teaching of Christianity and Catholicism, that God is so loving, He lets us choose to love him. If we choose not to love God, who also, due to Free will, cannot fully reveal His glory to us, we will suffer unbelievable torture for all eternity. I’m missing the logic part here.
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God does not force anybody to obey Him; every person is born with the choice to either obey God’s commandments or to disobey God’s commandments. That is by definition free will; the freedom to choose.

The Bible tells us how we are to live (2Timothy 3:16) and the Bible warns us of what will happen if we don’t obey God (Revelation 20:15). The choice is yours and yours alone to make; only you can choose to either obey God or to reject God.

Using your examples to give logic. The law is written detailing what will happen to those who breaks the law. The law doesn’t force people to obey the laws, but warns what will happen to those who doesn’t obey the law. Does that mean you don’t have the free will to choose to obey the law or to reject the law? You have the free will to choose; it is no different with God, and His laws.

Correct me if I’m worng, but I think your real issue is with God’s punishment. Some people who contend against God states things like: “If God is so loving, then why would he punish people for all eternity in fire?” Well, the fact of the matter is that God is so loving that He has given us a way to escape that punishment. People don’t have to go to the lake of fire, but because of their choice to live in opposition to God, they choose their destination. The same way you don’t have to go to jail, but you will if you break the law.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken
 
The Law is made for man, so that he can live in unity with his fellow man. Men often choose other paths that he thinks are more suitable, but nonetheless often leads to ruin or others into trouble.

This is logical defense of the Law.

People choose to go to hell by preferring themselves to God.

Free will itself is confusing, as many times it seems people are not free to choose, or too bias or afraid to change.

So, in this way, you could conclude that God is uncaring, because he has the grace to allow people to choose. On the other hand, grace does not force someones choice.
 
I like to think we are put on earth as a ‘dress rehearsal’ for heaven.
God likes for us to ‘practice’ before he allows us to go to heaven.
I really think he has given us the choice to make our own decisions. We can choose his way or our own way.
Personally, I like to choose his way, but like us all, i also have many hiccups along this road to heaven.
I love God so much, i like to think i dedicate my life to him, but i know i stuff up many times and get selfish and not put as much time as i like towards God.
In the end, i think he just wants us to grow and learn to love the way we choose. He made us all individuals and thats the way he wants us to be.
 
Hell isn’t the fiery basement of the world. Hell is separation from a loving God. Free will is God saying “Which do you choose, to live with Me or live without Me?” God doesn’t “Send people to Hell” He doesn’t hunt you down and torture people. He simply leaves them alone - just what they asked for. Thing is, being without the presence of God will not be fun. You just chose to be without Love or Mercy or anything… after all God created all those things and you just asked to be away from Him and things of His. Being without God will suck a lot. Pictures of hellfire and Brimstone are put out there because people try to imagine what it’d be like, it’s not literal.

Lots of young girls that run away from loving homes end up living on the streets as prostitutes. It’s not a happy loving life. Many of them ran away because they didn’t like their parents rules. You think they like their new lives better? Not likely. But that’s free-will. Having choices means that often some of the choices aren’t nice things. If you choose one of the bad ones it won’t be fun. Simple as that.
 
Syele said:
Hell isn’t the fiery basement of the world. Hell is separation from a loving God. Free will is God saying “Which do you choose, to live with Me or live without Me?” God doesn’t “Send people to Hell” He doesn’t hunt you down and torture people. He simply leaves them alone - just what they asked for. Thing is, being without the presence of God will not be fun. You just chose to be without Love or Mercy or anything… after all God created all those things and you just asked to be away from them and things of His. Being without God will suck a lot. Pictures of hellfire and Brimstone are put out there because people try to imagine what it’d be like, it’s not literal.
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You are dead on with this. A good book to read is “Theology and Sanity” where in the first few chapters Frank Sheed highlights the growing substitution of imagination for intellect. The depiction of Hell that you mentioned, when taken literally, is a prime example of such defective thinking.
 
Lucia later revealed that as she spoke these words, Mary opened her hands and rays of light from them seemed to penetrate the earth so that they saw a terrifying vision of hell, full of demons and lost souls amidst indescribable horrors.

This vision of hell was the first part of the “secret” of Fatima

This was from the vision at Fatima, Mary displayed to the children the horrors of hell.
 
dolphinlove said:
Lucia later revealed that as she spoke these words, Mary opened her hands and rays of light from them seemed to penetrate the earth so that they saw a terrifying vision of hell, full of demons and lost souls amidst indescribable horrors.

This vision of hell was the first part of the “secret” of Fatima

This was from the vision at Fatima, Mary displayed to the children the horrors of hell.
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“indescribable”… exactly.
 
Don’t Christians believe in the Day of Judgment when all of the creations will be judged by the Mightiest Judge of all?

When someone is tried before a judge in a Court of Law, it is not the defendant who will send himself to prison if found guilty but is is none other than the trial judge himself who will sentence the convicted felon to prison for the crimes that he has committed.

Why then do many Christians say that on the Day of Judgment, it is the creations themselves who by their own “free will”, have sent themselves to the Hell-fire and not the Most Supreme Judge of all?

It just does not make sense to me at all when I hear Christians say this.
 
hamba2han said:
Don’t Christians believe in the Day of Judgment when all of the creations will be judged by the Mightiest Judge of all?

When someone is tried before a judge in a Court of Law, it is not the defendant who will send himself to prison if found guilty but is is none other than the trial judge himself who will sentence the convicted felon to prison for the crimes that he has committed.

Why then do many Christians say that on the Day of Judgment, it is the creations themselves who by their own “free will”, have sent themselves to the Hell-fire and not the Most Supreme Judge of all?

It just does not make sense to me at all when I hear Christians say this.
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The judgement they are given is based on the choices they made during life. In your example, the defendant does send himself to prison, as he chose to commit whatever crime landed him there. The judge just has a different role in confirming the sentence, but as usual Muslims place a false dichotomy to try and have some Christian teaching “not make sense”… Anyway why should I pretend you are even asking sincere questions?
 
exoflare said:
Anyway why should I pretend you are even asking sincere questions?
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Like I said, on the Day of Judgment, ALL of the creations will be judged by the Most Supreme Judge of all.

And so, it is not my questions that you should be concerned about but rather, it is the questions that will be put to us on that Day which every one of us really need to prepare ourselves for in order to answer them satisfactorily.
 
hamba2han said:
Like I said, on the Day of Judgment, ALL of the creations will be judged by the Most Supreme Judge of all.
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And I disagree with this, where?

I don’t think you even have a point.
And so, it is not my questions that you should be concerned about but rather, it is the questions that will be put to us on that Day which every one of us really need to prepare ourselves for in order to answer them satisfactorily…
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Nobody is concerned with your questions, believe me.
 
Syele said:
Hell isn’t the fiery basement of the world. Hell is separation from a loving God. Free will is God saying “Which do you choose, to live with Me or live without Me?” God doesn’t “Send people to Hell” He doesn’t hunt you down and torture people. He simply leaves them alone - just what they asked for. Thing is, being without the presence of God will not be fun. You just chose to be without Love or Mercy or anything… after all God created all those things and you just asked to be away from Him and things of His. Being without God will suck a lot. Pictures of hellfire and Brimstone are put out there because people try to imagine what it’d be like, it’s not literal.

Lots of young girls that run away from loving homes end up living on the streets as prostitutes. It’s not a happy loving life. Many of them ran away because they didn’t like their parents rules. You think they like their new lives better? Not likely. But that’s free-will. Having choices means that often some of the choices aren’t nice things. If you choose one of the bad ones it won’t be fun. Simple as that.
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This makes sense to me. However, it is not the way the scenario is usually presented. As I said, I came across a post that explained hell is “neccessary” due to logic. And this is something I come across at CAF with some regularity.

Also, hell in the Bible is not described as being away from God, it is described as a fiery lake, as punishment, etc.

I also don’t understand the logic that the reason God does not act and reveal Himself clearly to us is that it would negate our free will. That if we knew how wonderful He was, we wouldn’t be able to NOT choose Him. What about Satan and the angels, who indeed saw the face of God and chose otherwise?

I don’t see consistency in the theology, nor logic, though that is what is supposedly behind it.

As usual, it is not the Divine I have an issue with, the theology that is used to “explain” Divine action.
 
hamba2han said:
Like I said, on the Day of Judgment, ALL of the creations will be judged by the Most Supreme Judge of all.

And so, it is not my questions that you should be concerned about but rather, it is the questions that will be put to us on that Day which every one of us really need to prepare ourselves for in order to answer them satisfactorily.
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This makes more sense to me than most of the supposed logic behind many theologies. The Divine does what it does, doesn’t need to fit human logic. Using human logic to explain Divine action seems at the very least hubrus, and basically ridiculous and fruitless. Because the universe does not operate according to what a human would consider logical.

People seem too eager to strip the Divine of it’s Divinity by attaching human traits and sensibilities to it.

People tell me something can’t be so, because in their mind their concept of God (all loving, or whatever) wouldn’t do that. I say, go with the truth, not with what makes sense to our limited minds.

So yes, I question how free our will is, and the neccessity of hell doesn’t seem logical, but, it doesn’t need to. If hell is real, it is real, whether it makes sense to us or not.
 
hamba2han said:
Like I said, on the Day of Judgment, ALL of the creations will be judged by the Most Supreme Judge of all.

And so, it is not my questions that you should be concerned about but rather, it is the questions that will be put to us on that Day which every one of us really need to prepare ourselves for in order to answer them satisfactorily.
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The judgment day is not going to be a day of defending ourselves against accusations. God isn’t going to question us in regards to what we have done, He is going to judge us according to what we have done (Revelation 20:13). Nobody will have any excuse (Romans 1:20).

In the name of Jesus,

Ken
 
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