Free will?

[exoflare]

This makes more sense to me than most of the supposed logic behind many theologies. The Divine does what it does, doesn’t need to fit human logic. Using human logic to explain Divine action seems at the very least hubrus, and basically ridiculous and fruitless. Because the universe does not operate according to what a human would consider logical.

Logic is logic, though. Even if you try to deprecate it by labeling it “human” logic… The problem is that it’s hard for humans to see the big picture a lot of times, so what obviously makes sense in the grand scheme of things doesn’t seem to make as much sense if we take it from a limited perspective.

Still, why would you think that there is some kind of separate “logic” that applies to God only?

 

[hamba2han]

So yes, I question how free our will is, and the neccessity of hell doesn’t seem logical, but, it doesn’t need to. If hell is real, it is real, whether it makes sense to us or not.

The creations do not have free will but rather, we are given free choice.

’Free Will’ versus ‘Free Choice’ according to Islam

Allah alone, has Free Will, He Wills whatever He likes and it will always happen as He wills. We have something called, “Free choice.” The difference is that what Allah “Wills” always happens and what we choose may or may not happen. We are not being judged on the outcome of things, we are being judged on our choices. This means that at the core of everything will always be our intentions. Whatever we intended, is what we will have the reward for. Each person will be judged according to what Allah gave them to work with, how they used it and what they intended to do with it.

As regards the actual “Judgment Day” - Allah tells us that everything we are doing is being recorded and not a single tiny thing escapes from this record. Even an atom’s weight of good will be seen on the Day of Judgment and even a single atom’s weight of evil will be seen too.

The one who will bring the evidences against us will be ourselves. Our ears, tongue, eyes and all of our bodies will begin to testify against us in front of Allah on the Day of Judgment. None will be oppressed on that Day, none will be falsely accused.

He could have put everyone in their respective places from the very beginning, but the people would complain as to why they were thrown in Hell without being given a chance. This life is exactly that; a chance to prove to ourselves who we really are and what we would really do if we indeed had a free choice.

Allah Knows everything that will happen, but we don’t. That is why the test is fair.

 

[Man]

The debate is about understanding all the actions of God, and how all the wrong choices of man interact. Obviously, no matter how “big picture” we are, and because we cannot see the past or future well enough to understand, we cannot validly reason through every judgment. Nor are we explicitly “free” except when we follow God’s will. And that seems like a contradiction, but really, for the righteous, it is not.

 

[cheddarsox]

Logic is logic, though. Even if you try to deprecate it by labeling it “human” logic… The problem is that it’s hard for humans to see the big picture a lot of times, so what obviously makes sense in the grand scheme of things doesn’t seem to make as much sense if we take it from a limited perspective.

Still, why would you think that there is some kind of separate “logic” that applies to God only?

I don’t know if there is a separate logic for God or not. But from what I see in the universe, whatever is in charge of it does not “think” or “reason” like a human. Using human reasoning to create theology to explain the puzzles of the universe seems pointless. Rather, why not observe and draw conclusions from what is, rather than speculate.

Religions that use human logic and reason to support their teachings may be based much more on human pride in our own thought processes than truth or faith in the Divine.

Let God be God, and don’t try to explain or emasculate Him by speculating why He does what He does.

I have tremendous awe and respect for the Divine, but I’ve come across religions that explain the Divine in such a way as to make Him appear insane, petty, ridiculous, etc. because they apply human traits and “reasoning” to Him.

The Divine doesn’t owe us any explanations, doesn’t need to bring anything “down to our level of understanding”.

Are we willing to stuff our own pride long enough to allow God to be what God is, rather than what we hope, wish or think God should be?

 

[exoflare]

I don’t know if there is a separate logic for God or not. But from what I see in the universe, whatever is in charge of it does not “think” or “reason” like a human. Using human reasoning to create theology to explain the puzzles of the universe seems pointless. Rather, why not observe and draw conclusions from what is, rather than speculate.

Are we willing to stuff our own pride long enough to allow God to be what God is, rather than what we hope, wish or think God should be?

Look at the bolded parts above. I’m not trying to instigate here, really, but are you sure you are sticking to your own advice?

It seems that even you are taking your own impression of God (which you yourself advise against), and then merely labeling that to be “what God IS”.

 

[holy_wood]

cheddarsox;2468705**:

Also, hell in the Bible is not described as being away from God, it is described as a fiery lake, as punishment, etc.

I also don’t understand the logic that the reason God does not act and reveal Himself clearly to us is that it would negate our free will. That if we knew how wonderful He was, we wouldn’t be able to NOT choose Him. What about Satan and the angels, who indeed saw the face of God and chose otherwise?

I don’t see consistency in the theology, nor logic, though that is what is supposedly behind it.

As usual, it is not the Divine I have an issue with, the theology that is used to “explain” Divine action.
Scripture

**Matt. 25:41 - Jesus says, "Depart from me,(eternal seperation) you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." **

2 Thess. 1:6-9 - the angels will come with flaming fire and the disobedient will suffer punishment of eternal destruction. It is important to note that “destruction” does not mean “annihilation,” as some Protestant denominations teach. It means eternal exclusion from the presence of God. .

Rev. 20:10 - they’re tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone day and night forever and ever.

Isaiah 33:14 - “Who of us can dwell in the everlasting fire?” This is a reference to hell which is forever.

Isaiah 66:24 - their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched. We cannot fathom the pain of this eternal separation from God.

Jer. 15:14 - in my anger a fire is kindled which shall burn forever. **Hell is the proper compliment to the eternal bliss of heaven. **
Judith 16:17 - in the day of judgment the Lord will take vengeance on the wicked and they shall weep in pain forever. Hell is a place that sinners have prepared for themselves by rejecting God, who desires all people to be saved in His Son Jesus Christ. **God sends no one to hell. **
______________________________________________________

He does not reveal himself because we did not earn it.
Our sin has seperated us from him in the beginning. Christ gave his life for our forgiveness but we still must show our faithin works and love.** (Even the demons believe in Jesus and tremble.)** Because of that fact I’m guessing God might want a little insurance thaat we won’t end up like them in Heaven. We need to prove that we want to be there by showing him hear on Earth that when given the choice between our will and His, that we would gladly choose his.

 

[cheddarsox]

Look at the bolded parts above. I’m not trying to instigate here, really, but are you sure you are sticking to your own advice?

It seems that even you are taking your own impression of God (which you yourself advise against), and then merely labeling that to be “what God IS”.

I can’t be totally sure, I’m not even sure it is possible not to do this to some extent, but I think looking at the universe and how it operates and accepting that as the doing of the Divine is a bit different from creating tomes of theology based on human logic, and then telling people that it is ultimate truth.

Do you think using human logic to figure out how/why the Divine operates is the way to go?

I guess that is using free will!

I do belong to a faith that does not use logic to describe the Theos, or assign human sensibilities or reasoning to the Theos. We take it at face value. That does mean saying “I don’t know.” a lot.

Theology is really interesting, but can also be very distracting. Metaphores can take on a life and garner a devotion of their own. That is something I personally have to guard against, a personal tendency that I struggle with. Maybe it really isn’t an issue for most other people.

cheddar

 

[jimmy85]

I started to start this thread earlier and deleted it. Then, saw a post stating that hell is a logical neccesity due to Free Will, and decided, I’d better go ahead and post.

Free will is a teaching of Christianity and Catholicism, that God is so loving, He lets us choose to love him. If we choose not to love God, who also, due to Free will, cannot fully reveal His glory to us, we will suffer unbelievable torture for all eternity.

I’m missing the logic part here.

How is it logical that we have a choice to believe in an all loving God, counter to our experience, or be tortured for eternity for not being able to believe?

And some say nay, belief is not enough, we must love this God, or suffer for all eternity. And we must love without seeing, or knowing, or experiencing, we must love based on hope that God is what we are told He is.

If I had a parent, who told me I had wonderful free will, but if I chose to do what the parent told me not to, I would be thrown in the basement, in solitary confinement, next to the furnace for the rest of my life. People might not consider that so free. And I would have a hard time loving the parent whom I had to fear so mightily of offending. And indeed, I might try to run away from this parent, rather than think they were the ideal, all loving, picture of perfection.

That is what “logic” tells me.

Hell is not neccessary, at least not by logic.
Free will is bunk. God holds all the cards. ( I believe and am willing to accept that)
Human explanations make God look like a nut. Better let God speak for himself, or remain silent.

I am a hard worker. My supervisor tells me what to do, and I do it. If I am told to do something I cannot or will not do, I quit the job, and don’t get the paycheck.That is free will. But my supervisor does not hunt me down and torture me. I just don’t get the paycheck.
That is logic.

Maybe God is not logical. That is what I believe. The Divine and human logic are not compatible, but Catholicism uses logic as a defense of it’s theology all the time. I can’t seem to figure out how free will, hell an all loving God and logic are connected.

Please help

When it comes to free will

You overreacted, free will dosent work like that at all.
If you dont love God that is not enough to go to hell. Many people is not aware that God exist, still he saves them.
Jesus said even if you insult God you will be forgiven.
So what u said about going to hell just for not loving God is baseless.

The Virgin of Medjurgore said that we gloryfy God when we carry “our cross”.
that means that we gloryfy God when we deal with our daily problems and when we carry on in life.

So why God say to us that we must be better to attain salvation and not to go to hell?
Because if we realize that salvation is easy and attainable we wouldnt care about virtude and good deeds , God want us to be perfect as he is and not mediocre.

After reading The Treatise on Purgatory by St Catherine of Genoa

I realized that people explode the doctrine of Hell. of course Hell is awfull, but St. Catherine on her mystic visions says that even in hell, God sends his mercy over there allowing that the souls that are there can endure the state of hell.

I believe you shouldnt think that the doctrinines of catholicism are the same for everyone.

God knows we are all diferent, therfore he dosent judge us all the same way.

There is a huge diference when we compare the sins from a secular person from the sins of a priest or of a consacrated person.
The same sins could be more serious for the priest than for the ones of secular person.
Therefore, God judge us diferently

The teaching of the church about mortal sins, venial sins and about hell are true, however the mercy of God can go farther than this.
The doctrines of the church are a perfect path to God.

God is more mercyful that what we can ever imagine. If we knew that salvation is so easy to attain then we wouldnt make any effort.

He want us to make an effort to be more virtuous like him, and not to be mediocre people.

Therefore the doctrines of the church are not against a loving God.
But they affirm his love. We must look at them with reason and we will understand them perfectly, and we would realize that they are the straight path to God.

 

[Man]

Jesus lacks human logic?

Perhaps we have definition, decide for yourself… perhaps:

"Docetae

(Greek Doketai.)

A heretical sect dating back to Apostolic times. Their name is derived from dokesis, “appearance” or “semblance”, because they taught that Christ only “appeared” or "seemed to be a man, to have been born, to have lived and suffered. Some denied the reality of Christ’s human nature altogether, some only the reality of His human body or of His birth or death. "

newadvent.org/cathen/05070c.htm

 

[redmars3000]

The creations do not have free will but rather, we are given free choice.

’Free Will’ versus ‘Free Choice’ according to Islam

Allah alone, has Free Will, He Wills whatever He likes and it will always happen as He wills. We have something called, “Free choice.” The difference is that what Allah “Wills” always happens and what we choose may or may not happen. We are not being judged on the outcome of things, we are being judged on our choices. This means that at the core of everything will always be our intentions. Whatever we intended, is what we will have the reward for. Each person will be judged according to what Allah gave them to work with, how they used it and what they intended to do with it.

As regards the actual “Judgment Day” - Allah tells us that everything we are doing is being recorded and not a single tiny thing escapes from this record. Even an atom’s weight of good will be seen on the Day of Judgment and even a single atom’s weight of evil will be seen too.

The one who will bring the evidences against us will be ourselves. Our ears, tongue, eyes and all of our bodies will begin to testify against us in front of Allah on the Day of Judgment. None will be oppressed on that Day, none will be falsely accused.

He could have put everyone in their respective places from the very beginning, but the people would complain as to why they were thrown in Hell without being given a chance. This life is exactly that; a chance to prove to ourselves who we really are and what we would really do if we indeed had a free choice.

Allah Knows everything that will happen, but we don’t. That is why the test is fair.

If God, as you say, wills everything, then everything that happens in the world is God’s will. That would mean that evil is also God’s will. Therefore the god you describe also creates evil. How do you explain this contradiction if your god is good.

 

[stashko]

Mat 5:22
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ’ You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:29
If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30
If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 18:9
If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Mark 9:45
"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,

Mark 9:47
" If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell

Ham - we have many passages out of the BIBLE to say we could go to hell, it is completely stupid to say we ‘cannot bare’ to think we have an all loving God that would not send us to hell.
Why do you think we have confession for?? If we do not confess, we will go to hell.
I really think YOU need to do a LOT more research on Christianity.
You do not understand or cannot even comprehend what we understand and think about God and why he would send us to hell. He loves us and would only condemn us for reasons we do not understand.

that statue of the lord has lost its religious significance …it used more now as a diving platform for para gliding and parachute jumping …i read that a while back once…stashko

 

[redmars3000]

I can’t be totally sure, I’m not even sure it is possible not to do this to some extent, but I think looking at the universe and how it operates and accepting that as the doing of the Divine is a bit different from creating tomes of theology based on human logic, and then telling people that it is ultimate truth.

Do you think using human logic to figure out how/why the Divine operates is the way to go?

I guess that is using free will!

I do belong to a faith that does not use logic to describe the Theos, or assign human sensibilities or reasoning to the Theos. We take it at face value. That does mean saying “I don’t know.” a lot.

Theology is really interesting, but can also be very distracting. Metaphores can take on a life and garner a devotion of their own. That is something I personally have to guard against, a personal tendency that I struggle with. Maybe it really isn’t an issue for most other people.

cheddar

Trying thinking about it from another approach Cheddar. Instead of understanding why hell must exist, try thinking about having free-will but without the consequence for any choice you freely make.

What is choice if it does not affect outcome? Say one chooses to murder someone, but nothing happens because their is no consequence to their choice. One chooses not to commit murder and nothing happens because there is no consequence to their choice. They have both done the same thing.

The other way:
One chooses to love God and nothing happens because… there is no consequence. “To Love” is a verb which implies motion, which implies time, which necessitates action. Action is a consequence of choice. Therefore if there is no action because there aren’t any consequences, can you actually choose? Do you have free-will if you can’t turn your choice into action?

A choice is meaningless if it does not affect anything. If it is meaningless then free will is impotent and does not matter, because everyone will be doing the same thing, nothing. It would be the same result if free will did not exist.

 

[paarsurrey]

Then, saw a post stating that hell is a logical neccesity due to Free Will.
Free will is a teaching of Christianity and Catholicism, that God is so loving He lets us choose to love him. If we choose not to love God, who also due to Free will, cannot fully reveal His glory to us, we will suffer unbelievable torture for all eternity.

Hi
Incidentally it is neither the logic of GodAllahYHWH nor of JesusYeshuaIssa that is what I understand but others are under no compulsion to believe it, except out of their Free Will if they are convinced.
The whole “LOGIC” presented is illogical to start with if seen closely. God selected Jesus “HIS SON” that he should be Crucified, without the consent or Free Will of Jesus, so it becomes contradictory and uncatholic even at the first stage. How many Catholics would agree ( not the priests who are not supposed to marry and have no sons or daughters ) that their sons/daughters are put on Cross forcibly for the atonement/redemption of their sins or their parents’ sins or their prodigy’s sins. I think only the Clergy would agree that such parents should do it; a sort of a avenge that they could not marry.
I respect your religion. I love Jesus and Mary.
Thanks

St. Paul the Apostle spoke about Jesus killing on Cross in 1 Cor 15:
[17] If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
[18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. Unquote
Now, in my opinion, as you know that Jesus was not killed on Cross, so according to Paul, Catholic viewpoint becomes a waste of energy; needs to be revised.

 

[cheddarsox]

Trying thinking about it from another approach Cheddar. Instead of understanding why hell must exist, try thinking about having free-will but without the consequence for any choice you freely make.

What is choice if it does not affect outcome? Say one chooses to murder someone, but nothing happens because their is no consequence to their choice. One chooses not to commit murder and nothing happens because there is no consequence to their choice. They have both done the same thing.

The other way:
One chooses to love God and nothing happens because… there is no consequence. “To Love” is a verb which implies motion, which implies time, which necessitates action. Action is a consequence of choice. Therefore if there is no action because there aren’t any consequences, can you actually choose? Do you have free-will if you can’t turn your choice into action?

A choice is meaningless if it does not affect anything. If it is meaningless then free will is impotent and does not matter, because everyone will be doing the same thing, nothing. It would be the same result if free will did not exist.

The universe I live in is full of consequences for one’s behaviors and choices. Choosing to love and follow the Divine has consequences right now and here in this life. No need to wait for death for them to apply. I don’t think that heaven and hell are logically neccessary, because there are so many other consequences.

They may exist, but to say they are neccessary by logic?

 

[KarenNC]

Did Mary, having been concieved without original sin for the express purpose of bearing Jesus, truly have the free will to then refuse to do so? Would God then had to have retroactively made another woman have been concieved without original sin to be fit for the purpose?

Does any human within history who fulfills a prophecy actually have the free will not to do so?

 

[hamba2han]

If God, as you say, wills everything, then everything that happens in the world is God’s will. That would mean that evil is also God’s will. Therefore the god you describe also creates evil. How do you explain this contradiction if your god is good.

First off, the God that I worship is the One Creator of all that exists in the Universe and the Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense i.e. the Day of Resurrection.

If you agree that this describes the God that you worship, then this of course can only mean that we both worship the same Deity.

Secondly, all that is good comes from God and just as darkness is a state of absence of light, then evil is the absence of the goodness that comes from God.

Therefore, God does not create evil just as He does not create darkness.

God however allows evil to happen just as He allows darkness to exist and this is part of the many trials and tribulations that He constantly tests His creations with.

This is where the freedom of choice that He has given His creations comes into the picture because the creations can freely choose whether they wish to go to the light or to remain in darkness.

And to repeat what I had previously posted:

We are not being judged on the outcome of things, we are being judged on our choices. This means that at the core of everything will always be our intentions. Whatever we intended, is what we will have the reward for. Each person will be judged according to what Allah gave them to work with, how they used it and what they intended to do with it.

 

[redmars3000]

The universe I live in is full of consequences for one’s behaviors and choices. Choosing to love and follow the Divine has consequences right now and here in this life. No need to wait for death for them to apply. I don’t think that heaven and hell are logically neccessary, because there are so many other consequences.

They may exist, but to say they are neccessary by logic?

Yes, this life does have consequence. What I am getting at is why can’t hell be just an extension of those consequences.

 

[redmars3000]

First off, the God that I worship is the One Creator of all that exists in the Universe and the Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense i.e. the Day of Resurrection.

If you agree that this describes the God that you worship, then this of course can only mean that we both worship the same Deity.

Ok, lets go through this. I hope this doesnt derail the thread too much.

Simple question:
Ham, Do you believe that whatever happens on this earth is Allah’s will?

 

[jimmy85]

The universe I live in is full of consequences for one’s behaviors and choices. Choosing to love and follow the Divine has consequences right now and here in this life. No need to wait for death for them to apply. I don’t think that heaven and hell are logically neccessary, because there are so many other consequences.

They may exist, but to say they are neccessary by logic?

I dont really think that stuffs are completely fair in this life.

 

[jimmy85]

Did Mary, having been concieved without original sin for the express purpose of bearing Jesus, truly have the free will to then refuse to do so?
QUOTE]

That is why the angel asked her. and she said yes.

Before that she was thinking about consacrating her whole life to God by being a virgin.

So I believe that God knew whom he was chosing.