Free will?

[cheddarsox]

Yes, this life does have consequence. What I am getting at is why can’t hell be just an extension of those consequences.

It can.

I don’t think it is neccessary by “logic”. There does not logically have to be a hell.

I guess what my issue boils down to is people using human logic to create theology to explain why God behaves a certain way. And, poor logic at that.

When people use weak or faulty logic to support their beleifs, and keep claiming that their beliefs are “logical”, it weakens their cause.

Why “explain God” at all?

Truth is truth, whether it can be explained or not. We can’t explain gravity, yet, there it is and we don’t have to doubt it’s reality.

Sometimes theology does more harm than good, and, as I have said before, makes the Theos appear ridiculous, when, if no one bothered to try to explain it…it very well might not.

Sometimes what keeps people away from God is not God, but the nonsense people teach about Him. People get distracted or disgusted by the nonsense, and blame God for what His followers teach.

People create stumbling blocks for others by speaking too much on God’s behalf.

 

[cheddarsox]

I dont really think that stuffs are completely fair in this life.

I don’t think they are either. Justice is a fairy tale. But that doesn’t neccessitate hell either. Eternal punishment for finite evil isn’t justice either, so that isn’t “logical” as some argue.

It just isn’t fair. Hard, but true.

 

[Man]

Muslims and Christians must start evangelical discussion with an understanding.

First, we understand that Muslims believe that the Bible was not well cared for. We object, we believe that it was. Thus, Muslim evangelists must accept that we reject their claim it was re-written. I could go into a proof, but that is not the point.

The reason I mention even one thing like this, is because this is a matter we might be able to agreement on, if we simply would give up our bias.

I believe that we do not know to what extent we have free will.
I believe that God respects certain decisions of man, even those against His will or we could say contrary to His Law.

 

[exoflare]

The whole “LOGIC” presented is illogical to start with if seen closely. God selected Jesus “HIS SON” that he should be Crucified, without the consent or Free Will of Jesus, so it becomes contradictory and uncatholic even at the first stage.

Now if Catholics really believed that, you might actually have a point.

 

[jimmy85]

I don’t think they are either. Justice is a fairy tale. But that doesn’t neccessitate hell either. Eternal punishment for finite evil isn’t justice either, so that isn’t “logical” as some argue.

It just isn’t fair. Hard, but true.

I agree with what you say about people distorting the truth of God, like fundamentalist people exploited the doctrine of Hell and makign it to look ridiculous.
However the very doctrine is not bad, but it is in most of the times wrongly misunderstood and wrongly teached by this people.

If we were sure that hell dosent exist we wouldnt make any effort to be good.

As you said logic tell us that there are causes and consecuences in this life. However some people can be evil people and yet they can have a happy life, Therefore they wouldnt have concecences at all.

Therefore, what you says means that there is no cause nor consequense, but that justice is random and good stuffs and bad stuffs can happen to evil doers and to virtuos people alike.

I believe that the true justice is more than the causes and consequenses that we can grasp in this nature and in this life.

Otherwise there is no justice at all, and if there is no justice at all, there is no logic nor reason at all for stuffs.

 

[Man]

Ah, yes, it is both a Catholic AND Orthodox belief that in the end there will be a sort of Justice, that we cannot fully comprehend. We do know that ignoring Divine Law often leads into perilous situations and folly, but these are not restricted to those who break the law, but also suffering is part of the human condition.

For, without God there is no justice. (?Jesus of Nazareth?) I don’t know if I wrote it or quoted it.

 

[jimmy85]

Eternal punishment for finite evil isn’t justice either, so that isn’t “logical” as some argue.

As I mentioned before we cant know for sure how exactly hell is .

I believe that the doctrine of hell means that the people that go there will never be able to be in the presence of God.
because if someone hates God , that soul, by its free will, will chose not to be with God.

Hell is not the same for every soul.
So I dotn think that anyone must think that every soul that go there is gonna be turtored for the eternity, but the real meaning of Hell is that they will be away from the presence of God for all the eternity.

I think hell has to do with the mistery of God as well. st Catherine said that when the body dies the soul realize how bad were their sins and faults and the soul truly realize the greatness of God. and by its free will the souls prefer to go to the purgatory or to hell, rather than to go straight to God in a sinfull state.

That is the main reason of the purgatory.

Forr further info I recommend you to read The Treatise on the Purgatory by St Catherine
and , read some lifes and miracles of the saints especially of the mystic saints, and then you will realize that they werent just simple men that distorted the image of God, but that they were mystic people that had a very close and tight union with God.

 

[mark_a]

I started to start this thread earlier and deleted it. Then, saw a post stating that hell is a logical neccesity due to Free Will, and decided, I’d better go ahead and post.

Free will is a teaching of Christianity and Catholicism, that God is so loving, He lets us choose to love him. If we choose not to love God, who also, due to Free will, cannot fully reveal His glory to us, we will suffer unbelievable torture for all eternity.

I’m missing the logic part here.

How is it logical that we have a choice to believe in an all loving God, counter to our experience, or be tortured for eternity for not being able to believe?

And some say nay, belief is not enough, we must love this God, or suffer for all eternity. And we must love without seeing, or knowing, or experiencing, we must love based on hope that God is what we are told He is.

If I had a parent, who told me I had wonderful free will, but if I chose to do what the parent told me not to, I would be thrown in the basement, in solitary confinement, next to the furnace for the rest of my life. People might not consider that so free. And I would have a hard time loving the parent whom I had to fear so mightily of offending. And indeed, I might try to run away from this parent, rather than think they were the ideal, all loving, picture of perfection.

That is what “logic” tells me.

Hell is not neccessary, at least not by logic.
Free will is bunk. God holds all the cards. ( I believe and am willing to accept that)
Human explanations make God look like a nut. Better let God speak for himself, or remain silent.
Maybe God is not logical. That is what I believe. The Divine and human logic are not compatible, but Catholicism uses logic as a defense of it’s theology all the time.

The whole idea of the communion of saints helps us to understand that the world is not just 6 billion individual relationships with God and that our behavior doesn’t affect anyone else. We are one huge family. And we have responsilities to our family.

I can’t seem to figure out how free will, hell an all loving God and logic are connected.

If you figure everything out, it ain’t faith.

But my supervisor does not hunt me down and torture me. I just don’t get the paycheck.
That is logic.

150 years ago, in this country, that may not necessarily have been the case.

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by paarsurrey
The whole “LOGIC” presented is illogical to start with if seen closely. God selected Jesus “HIS SON” that he should be Crucified, without the consent or Free Will of Jesus, so it becomes contradictory and uncatholic even at the first stage.

Now if Catholics really believed that, you might actually have a point.

Hi
And Catholics do believe that.
Thanks

St. Paul the Apostle spoke about Jesus killing on Cross in 1 Cor 15:
[17] If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
[18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. Unquote
Now, in my opinion, as you know that Jesus was not killed on Cross, so according to Paul, Catholic viewpoint is not proved; needs to be revised.

 

[jimmy85]

Originally Posted by paarsurrey
The whole “LOGIC” presented is illogical to start with if seen closely. God selected Jesus “HIS SON” that he should be Crucified, without the consent or Free Will of Jesus, so it becomes contradictory and uncatholic even at the first stage.

Hi
And Catholics do believe that.
Thanks

St. Paul the Apostle spoke about Jesus killing on Cross in 1 Cor 15:
[17] If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
[18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. Unquote
Now, in my opinion, as you know that Jesus was not killed on Cross, so according to Paul, Catholic viewpoint is not proved; needs to be revised.

man you crack me up…

 

[Man]

One thing that is so interesting about Jesus is that He actually did have free will.

AND

He showed His love for mankind in a way that they could understand.

 

[hamba2han]

Simple question:
Do you believe that whatever happens on this earth is Allah’s will?

Allah alone, has Free Will, He Wills whatever He likes and it will always happen as He wills. We have something called, “Free choice.” The difference is that what Allah “Wills” always happens and what we choose may or may not happen.

Allah without a doubt has Power over all things. He created everything that has been created and His knowledge is Absolute.

**Knowest thou not that to Allah (alone) belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punisheth whom He pleaseth, and He forgiveth whom He pleaseth: and Allah hath power over all things. **…(Qur’an 5:40)

And therefore, this verse completely nullifies the Christians’ claim that on the Day of Judgment, it is apparently not the Most Supreme Judge of all… but rather it is the creations themselves who will send themselves to the Hellfire supposedly through their own “freewill”.

This kind of Christian reasoning makes absolutely no sense at all to a Muslim.

When we talk about Allah’s will we mean two things:

1. Everything that happens is known by Allah
2. Everything that happens is by His permission

Allah has knowledge of what humans will do and Allah has given them permission to do what they choose. This is where free choice comes into play.

Humankind has been given guidance via Prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all) and it has been made clear to them what is good and what is wrong. With guidance, humankind has been blessed with the choice to do good or bad. Allah has given man guidance and the permission to do as he pleases thus only man is responsible for his action.

Allowing a person to do something after he has been given guidance and the sense to distinguish between right and wrong does not mean the one giving the permission is responsible. This is the entire concept of free choice. We have been given the choice and permission to comply or deny and thus we are responsible for our actions. Truly Allah(swt) is the “justest of Judges” (Qur’an 11:45)

 

[Booklover]

Allah alone, has Free Will, He Wills whatever He likes and it will always happen as He wills. We have something called, “Free choice.” The difference is that what Allah “Wills” always happens and what we choose may or may not happen.

What is the diffrence between “free will” and “free choice”??

Allah without a doubt has Power over all things. He created everything that has been created and His knowledge is Absolute.

**Knowest thou not that to Allah (alone) belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punisheth whom He pleaseth, and He forgiveth whom He pleaseth: and Allah hath power over all things. **…(Qur’an 5:40)

And therefore, this verse completely nullifies the Christians’ claim that on the Day of Judgment, it is apparently not the Most Supreme Judge of all… but rather it is the creations themselves who will send themselves to the Hellfire supposedly through their own “freewill”.

God wants everyone to be saved. It is our evil deeds that can send us to hell.

This kind of Christian reasoning makes absolutely no sense at all to a Muslim.

Muslim reasoning makes no sense to a Christian either!

When we talk about Allah’s will we mean two things:

1. Everything that happens is known by Allah
2. Everything that happens is by His permission

Allah has knowledge of what humans will do and Allah has given them permission to do what they choose. This is where free choice comes into play.

God created rational beings.

Humankind has been given guidance via Prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all) and it has been made clear to them what is good and what is wrong. With guidance, humankind has been blessed with the choice to do good or bad. Allah has given man guidance and the permission to do as he pleases thus only man is responsible for his action.

Isn’t that the same as free will?.

Allowing a person to do something after he has been given guidance and the sense to distinguish between right and wrong does not mean the one giving the permission is responsible. This is the entire concept of free choice. We have been given the choice and permission to comply or deny and thus we are responsible for our actions. Truly Allah(swt) is the “justest of Judges” (Qur’an 11:45)

Allah is also the greatest deceiver!

 

[exoflare]

Originally Posted by paarsurrey
The whole “LOGIC” presented is illogical to start with if seen closely. God selected Jesus “HIS SON” that he should be Crucified, without the consent or Free Will of Jesus, so it becomes contradictory and uncatholic even at the first stage.

Hi
And Catholics do believe that.
Thanks

Are you trying to convince us, or yourself? Noboby is going to fall for this, so keep it up if you must… it’s no skin off my back.

 

[exoflare]

Muslim reasoning makes no sense to a Christian either!

“Muslim reasoning” is almost an oxymoron anyway. But still there is really no such thing as “Christian reasoning” either. Reasoning is just what it is - there aren’t different types, at least not based on religious labels.

 

[Man]

Many people approach the Catholic Church as if its arguments are like those of many Protestant churches. However, philosophy and Christianity met very early on in the Catholic Church and Tradition, when Christians met Greek philosophers…

You see how the arguments from hamba2han agree with the basic free will philosophy up and until he reaches his exposition on God. Then, there is certainly a disagreement on how loving God is.

If the Koran is real, then isn’t it a demonstration of God’s love, and if it is not, then Christians insist that God is Love…

 

[cheddarsox]

Many people approach the Catholic Church as if its arguments are like those of many Protestant churches. However, philosophy and Christianity met very early on in the Catholic Church and Tradition, when Christians met Greek philosophers…

You see how the arguments from hamba2han agree with the basic free will philosophy up and until he reaches his exposition on God. Then, there is certainly a disagreement on how loving God is.

If the Koran is real, then isn’t it a demonstration of God’s love, and if it is not, then Christians insist that God is Love…

I want to know more about what you mean when you say God is Love.

My faith believes that too. We define Divine Love as the cooperation of everything, which causes everything to exist and occur. It is an unbiased Love, a huge Love, not at all a Hallmark sort of Love (not to imply your understanding is, just to explain that our’s is not)

I never really understood what Christians mean when they say “God is Love”, but it seem pertinent to this discussion of free will and hell and logic.

 

[cheddarsox]

Allah alone, has Free Will, He Wills whatever He likes and it will always happen as He wills. We have something called, “Free choice.” The difference is that what Allah “Wills” always happens and what we choose may or may not happen.

Allah without a doubt has Power over all things. He created everything that has been created and His knowledge is Absolute.

**Knowest thou not that to Allah (alone) belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punisheth whom He pleaseth, and He forgiveth whom He pleaseth: and Allah hath power over all things. **…(Qur’an 5:40)

And therefore, this verse completely nullifies the Christians’ claim that on the Day of Judgment, it is apparently not the Most Supreme Judge of all… but rather it is the creations themselves who will send themselves to the Hellfire supposedly through their own “freewill”.

This kind of Christian reasoning makes absolutely no sense at all to a Muslim.

When we talk about Allah’s will we mean two things:

1. Everything that happens is known by Allah
2. Everything that happens is by His permission

Allah has knowledge of what humans will do and Allah has given them permission to do what they choose. This is where free choice comes into play.

Humankind has been given guidance via Prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all) and it has been made clear to them what is good and what is wrong. With guidance, humankind has been blessed with the choice to do good or bad. Allah has given man guidance and the permission to do as he pleases thus only man is responsible for his action.

Allowing a person to do something after he has been given guidance and the sense to distinguish between right and wrong does not mean the one giving the permission is responsible. This is the entire concept of free choice. We have been given the choice and permission to comply or deny and thus we are responsible for our actions. Truly Allah(swt) is the “justest of Judges” (Qur’an 11:45)

This seems more in keeping with observed reality than much of Christian theology as I understand it.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Hey Cheddersox,

I would recomend the book ‘The Case for Faith’ by Lee Strobel. It addresses this very issue amoung others. I found it quite helpful!

 

[Singinbeauty]

I want to know more about what you mean when you say God is Love.

My faith believes that too. We define Divine Love as the cooperation of everything, which causes everything to exist and occur. It is an unbiased Love, a huge Love, not at all a Hallmark sort of Love (not to imply your understanding is, just to explain that our’s is not)

I never really understood what Christians mean when they say “God is Love”, but it seem pertinent to this discussion of free will and hell and logic.

Because it is right there in the bible my friend:

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.