Freedom of Faith on Company Time?

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School bus driver Seham Nabry says her boss confiscated her prayer mats and complained that her ritual hand and feet washing messed up the office bathroom. She also says he blared Christian music and taunted Muslim workers as they prayed.

That’s the opening paragrpah of the article. Not exaclty a one sided argument as your original post suggested.
 
Catholics are not required to say the Divine Chaplet, so that’s not a fair comparison.

But at the same time, it’s my obligation as a Catholic to find employment that will not compromise my beliefs. I’m not going to work for Planned Parenthood. That would be comparable to the meat packing workers taking a job where they would be required to handle pork. Why look for trouble?

My job allows a 15 minute break in the morning, 1 hour lunch, then another 15 minute break in the afternoon. I don’t have a clue how long the prayers take, or what the ritual washing involves, but there should be a way to accommodate them without undue stress on the business. There have been American Muslims for a long time…somebody must have worked this out somewhere.
 
daeve said:
Catholics are not required to say the Divine Chaplet, so that’s not a fair comparison.
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That’s not the point! The fact is that Muslims come to a non-Muslim country demanding that everyone give in to their demands!
But at the same time, it’s my obligation as a Catholic to find employment that will not compromise my beliefs. I’m not going to work for Planned Parenthood. That would be comparable to the meat packing workers taking a job where they would be required to handle pork. Why look for trouble?
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That’s not the same thing either! You as a Christian choose not to work for PP, but Muslims go to work for non-Muslim employers demand to be accommodated for their beliefs! Why don’t they work for other Muslims then?
My job allows a 15 minute break in the morning, 1 hour lunch, then another 15 minute break in the afternoon. I don’t have a clue how long the prayers take, or what the ritual washing involves, but there should be a way to accommodate them without undue stress on the business. There have been American Muslims for a long time…somebody must have worked this out somewhere.
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From another link:

***Muslims do not deserve additional breaks just because they are Muslim, why should the other workers surrender their rights to them? Is everyone going to stop working 5 times a day? Of course not, it is a business, they pay you to work, you want a job where you can set your own schedule? Open your own business, don’t attempt blackmail of your employer. This is not about prayer it is about force. ***

doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2007/01/17/minneapolis-muslims-blackmailing-employer/
 
I want to know why the Muslims in question accepted the jobs in the first place. When you are offered a job they can and should tell you what kind of break schedule you will have. If your religion would require you to need more break time it should be worked out PRIOR to the start of your employment. After you have accepted the job, you have agreed to follow the break schedule. Therefore you have no right to sue your employer for something you overlooked before accepting the job. One should only accept jobs that will not interfere with their religion if they choose to do so, then they have no right to sue. If the job is paid hourly, then breaks are determined by how many hours your shift is. Most companies use the state/federal guidelines. If it is salary then you still are told how many breaks you have in one day. To expect more break time than another employee who has the same job and works the same amount of hours would be wrong and has no legal standing for any reason. The employer should try to schedule breaks that the employee has earned to the prayer schedule if possible. The employee should also arrange their avalibitity with their prayer schedule taken into account. if you can only work in the afternoon but have prayers at noon you should say that you can work at 12:30 not noon. The employees need to also realize that they are not the only one who works for their employer and be willing to comprimise.
 
It’s probably just me…but I see a lot anti-Muslim sentiment when it comes to them being allowed to practice the tenents of their faith…but I read large outcrys of Protestants and Catholics who are angry becasue of prayer not allowed in schools or Catholic pharmicists who don’t want to provide birth control pills to their customers because it is against the tenents of their faith…oh I know…“it’s different”…but it’s only "different’ because the good old USA isn’t a “Muslim” nation…it’s not a “Christian” nation either…but the large majority of it’s citizens do call themselves such.

Religious freeedom must be provided to all people…even the religions we don’t agree with…or religions we don’t like…the whole sentiment just sits wrong with me…but then…I’m sure it’s just my Quaker sensibilites kicking in.
 
Publisher said:
It’s probably just me…but I see a lot anti-Muslim sentiment when it comes to them being allowed to practice the tenents of their faith…but I read large outcrys of Protestants and Catholics who are angry becasue of prayer not allowed in schools or Catholic pharmicists who don’t want to provide birth control pills to their customers because it is against the tenents of their faith…oh I know…“it’s different”…but it’s only "different’ because the good old USA isn’t a “Muslim” nation…it’s not a “Christian” nation either…but the large majority of it’s citizens do call themselves such.

Religious freeedom must be provided to all people…even the religions we don’t agree with…or religions we don’t like…the whole sentiment just sits wrong with me…but then…I’m sure it’s just my Quaker sensibilites kicking in.
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I agree with you - I’m seeing more than a bit of anti-Muslim sentiment here which is disturbing. If we don’t allow religious freedom for all, who knows when someone will decide that no one can be allowed to be outwardly Catholic because it is offensive to the rest of the population (isn’t there a poll on some thread right now where folks are stating how “Catholic” they look at work?).

~Liza
 
This is directly related to a recent story about Muslim taxi drivers unable and unwilling to transport travelers who were in possession of a bottle of alcohol (unopened) purchased at duty free shops. See the story here. I am a tolerant person, but think they would better served by taking jobs that will not go against their beliefs in any regard.

Kelly
 
Publisher said:
It’s probably just me…but I see a lot anti-Muslim sentiment when it comes to them being allowed to practice the tenents of their faith…but I read large outcrys of Protestants and Catholics who are angry becasue of prayer not allowed in schools or Catholic pharmicists who don’t want to provide birth control pills to their customers because it is against the tenents of their faith…oh I know…“it’s different”…but it’s only "different’ because the good old USA isn’t a “Muslim” nation…it’s not a “Christian” nation either…but the large majority of it’s citizens do call themselves such.

Religious freeedom must be provided to all people…even the religions we don’t agree with…or religions we don’t like…the whole sentiment just sits wrong with me…but then…I’m sure it’s just my Quaker sensibilites kicking in.
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If employers had to cater to all religious beliefs on company time, there would be no time left for work! Get real!

Are you aware of what is involved in Muslims’ washing rituals before prayer, and also all the things that can invalidate those prayers? If a Muslim even passes wind while praying, the prayer is invalidated and he has to wash all over again before praying!
 
kell0618 said:
This is directly related to a recent story about Muslim taxi drivers unable and unwilling to transport travelers who were in possession of a bottle of alcohol (unopened) purchased at duty free shops. See the story here. I am a tolerant person, but think they would better served by taking jobs that will not go against their beliefs in any regard.

Kelly
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That’s what I was trying to say. The one company (Celestia or something like that) used to make an accommodation for them, then stopped.

I admitted I don’t know how long or involved the prayer rituals are, but if they have to do it early there’s before work, midday there’s lunch time, then there are usually breaks sometime during they day. I’m not trying to give them anything special or say that other people should have to pick up the slack.

I am saying they have to make reasonable choice, and employers have to make reasonable accommodations or the Muslim needs to work for a company that can. If I took a job that required working on Sunday, I can’t grouse when I’m scheduled for Sunday. If that’s an issue for me, I should work somewhere else. A meat packer is probably going to handle pork, even in a chicken plant.

Freedom of religion has to extend to everyone or it won’t extend to anyone.

On the other note, I don’t want prayer in public school. My kids didn’t need to pray something composed by an anti-Catholic. My Buddhist friends and Jewish friends and Muslim friends don’t want their kids saying Christian prayers. A prayer that’s been watered down enough to avoid offending anyone’s beliefs would be pretty useless. Kids should have a couple minutes to pray for themselves, but if I want my kids to pray in school, I’ll find a way to send them to Catholic school.
 
It seems to me if a Muslim is to be a good Muslim they should be allowed the same consideration as other faiths in being allowe to exercise their faith.

I see all the reasons for not allowing them to do so all boiled down to very negative sentiments…we can pretend it’s becasue it’s “inconvienient” to the owner of the business…but from the article…the owner or supervisor was quite mocking in their treatment of this Muslim woman.

I cannot look into anyones heart…IF it’s the mess caused from ritual washing that’s the issue…then perhaps she should be taught to clean up after herself…if it’s time issues…perhaps she can make up the time…if it’s anti-Muslim sentiments…only an act of Grace and Mercy will break that chain in the heart…only the person exhibiting those feelings and voicing those sentiments can speak for themselves before the Light.

It would seem to me if in this country we would seek to slow down the growth of Islam…it will only come about through God’s people exhibiting a radical love and compassion for the Muslim…not be a stumbling block that will push them deeper and deeper into Islam…Christians for the most part act very very “unchristian” when it comes to Muslims…

Again…I’m sure it’s just my Quaker sensibility speaking…and really holds little merit.
 
Publisher said:
It seems to me if a Muslim is to be a good Muslim they should be allowed the same consideration as other faiths in being allowe to exercise their faith.

I see all the reasons for not allowing them to do so all boiled down to very negative sentiments…we can pretend it’s becasue it’s “inconvienient” to the owner of the business…but from the article…the owner or supervisor was quite mocking in their treatment of this Muslim woman.

I cannot look into anyones heart…IF it’s the mess caused from ritual washing that’s the issue…then perhaps she should be taught to clean up after herself…if it’s time issues…perhaps she can make up the time…if it’s anti-Muslim sentiments…only an act of Grace and Mercy will break that chain in the heart…only the person exhibiting those feelings and voicing those sentiments can speak for themselves before the Light.

It would seem to me if in this country we would seek to slow down the growth of Islam…it will only come about through God’s people exhibiting a radical love and compassion for the Muslim…not be a stumbling block that will push them deeper and deeper into Islam…Christians for the most part act very very “unchristian” when it comes to Muslims…

Again…I’m sure it’s just my Quaker sensibility speaking…and really holds little merit.
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There is a time and a place for everything! In trying to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one!

That article also states:

“Essentially plaintiffs demand that they be permitted to cease work and engage in prayer whenever they deem it necessary regardless of their employer’s legitimate business needs,” wrote attorneys for employment agency Adecco USA."

Do you consider that fair on the employer?? If workers cannot use their breaks for praying or whatever, then it’s their problem! I don’t think it’s the employer’s responsibility to cater to unreasonable demands.

How can an employer run an efficient business while having to accomodate all his employees religious needs? Jesus said, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”
 
“Essentially plaintiffs demand that they be permitted to cease work and engage in prayer whenever they deem it necessary regardless of their employer’s legitimate business needs,” wrote attorneys for employment agency Adecco USA."

Booklover, notice these are the company’s attorneys. They could be a bit biased in their evaluation of the system.

Nobody should get special treatment. If reasonable accommodation doesn’t work, then the person has to make his own adjustments. Reasonable is the key word here.
 
Publisher said:
It seems to me if a Muslim is to be a good Muslim they should be allowed the same consideration as other faiths in being allowe to exercise their faith.
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In that case, Muslims should also show consideration to non-Muslims in Muslim countries, but instead treat them like 2nd class citizens and even persecute them for their faith!
I see all the reasons for not allowing them to do so all boiled down to very negative sentiments…we can pretend it’s becasue it’s “inconvienient” to the owner of the business…but from the article…the owner or supervisor was quite mocking in their treatment of this Muslim woman.
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You’re only looking at the Muslim’s side of it. You have no idea what the employer may have had to put up with.
I cannot look into anyones heart…IF it’s the mess caused from ritual washing that’s the issue…then perhaps she should be taught to clean up after herself…if it’s time issues…perhaps she can make up the time…if it’s anti-Muslim sentiments…only an act of Grace and Mercy will break that chain in the heart…only the person exhibiting those feelings and voicing those sentiments can speak for themselves before the Light.
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Maybe it’s the clash of civilizations. Muslims are firmly rooted in the 7th century and we live in the 21st. Can you see any problems there? In this day and age, do you find it reasonable for a Muslim cabbie to refuse to take a blind person in his cab because of the seeing eye dog, since Muslims believe dogs to be unclean?

Are any other religions causing so much upheaval in the workplace as Islam is doing?
It would seem to me if in this country we would seek to slow down the growth of Islam…it will only come about through God’s people exhibiting a radical love and compassion for the Muslim…not be a stumbling block that will push them deeper and deeper into Islam…Christians for the most part act very very “unchristian” when it comes to Muslims…

Again…I’m sure it’s just my Quaker sensibility speaking…and really holds little merit.
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Muslims make no concessions. They want all the rights that they deny to others. If we continue to give in to all their demands, eventually they will have all the rights and freedoms and we will have lost ours!
 
daeve said:
“Essentially plaintiffs demand that they be permitted to cease work and engage in prayer whenever they deem it necessary regardless of their employer’s legitimate business needs,” wrote attorneys for employment agency Adecco USA."

Booklover, notice these are the company’s attorneys. They could be a bit biased in their evaluation of the system.

Nobody should get special treatment. If reasonable accommodation doesn’t work, then the person has to make his own adjustments. Reasonable is the key word here.
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Perhaps they are biased and perhaps not! Reasonable is the key word! How do we know how much time the washing and prayers take?? There’s been no mention of that in the article.

Vickie
 
It seems to me if a Muslim is to be a good Muslim they should be allowed the same consideration as other faiths in being allowe to exercise their faith.
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How are “other faiths” allowed to exercise their faith?
What about all the “good” Christians and Jews here in the good ole USA?
There is no prayer in school.
There are no Christmas trees in the town square any longer. And don’t let’s even TALK about nativities!
There are no Christmas, Hannakka or Easter pagents in public schools anymore.
There is no longer a Christmas vacation from school.
No reference to Christmas, Hannakka, Easter, Yom Kippor, Lent, etc. is allowed not only in schools but neith is allowed in the work place. I made a Christmas vacation sign for our front doors at work and was told to change it to “Winter break”. :rolleyes:
I can’t be given time off for daily Mass, Good Friday, Ash Wednesday, etc.
So just HOW are Christians and Jews being accomodated here in our Christian-Judeao country??:mad:
(sorry for lousy spelling!)
 
catsrus said:
How are “other faiths” allowed to exercise their faith?
What about all the “good” Christians and Jews here in the good ole USA?
There is no prayer in school.
There are no Christmas trees in the town square any longer. And don’t let’s even TALK about nativities!
There are no Christmas, Hannakka or Easter pagents in public schools anymore.
There is no longer a Christmas vacation from school.
No reference to Christmas, Hannakka, Easter, Yom Kippor, Lent, etc. is allowed not only in schools but neith is allowed in the work place. I made a Christmas vacation sign for our front doors at work and was told to change it to “Winter break”. :rolleyes:
I can’t be given time off for daily Mass, Good Friday, Ash Wednesday, etc.
So just HOW are Christians and Jews being accomodated here in our Christian-Judeao country??:mad:
(sorry for lousy spelling!)
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👍

Vickie
 
Booklover said:
In that case, Muslims should also show consideration to non-Muslims in Muslim countries, but instead treat them like 2nd class citizens and even persecute them for their faith!

You’re only looking at the Muslim’s side of it. You have no idea what the employer may have had to put up with.

Maybe it’s the clash of civilizations. Muslims are firmly rooted in the 7th century and we live in the 21st. Can you see any problems there? In this day and age, do you find it reasonable for a Muslim cabbie to refuse to take a blind person in his cab because of the seeing eye dog, since Muslims believe dogs to be unclean?

Are any other religions causing so much upheaval in the workplace as Islam is doing?

Muslims make no concessions. They want all the rights that they deny to others. If we continue to give in to all their demands, eventually they will have all the rights and freedoms and we will have lost ours!
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Yes, Muslims should show consideration for others in their countries, but whether they do or not cannot affect the way we treat people in our country. We can be the good example instead.

You’re right, we only heard one side of the story. Maybe someone can seek out a link to the employer’s side.

As for the dog thing, this is problematic. We treat service animals differently than other animals. I don’t how big a deal this is to Muslims, but it could be comparable to a Catholic pharmacist not wanting to fill a script for birth control pills. That may seem an uneven comparasion, but we don’t think it’s right that the pharmacist should have to compromise by distributing a drug he considers immoral. It’s certainly an inconvenience to the patient if she has to go somewhere else. It could be that big a deal to the cabbie.

I don’t see much religous upheaval at work, but most of the people I work with are either not involved at all, or Christian. Sometimes I get into a Catholics aren’t Christian kind of discussion with someone, but mostly there’s more of a kinship with the other churchgoers here, mostly Baptists and CME. Most of the time we’re more worried about who’s acquiring what company and what does that mean to my future employment.
 
daeve said:
Catholics are not required to say the Divine Chaplet, so that’s not a fair comparison.

But at the same time, it’s my obligation as a Catholic to find employment that will not compromise my beliefs. I’m not going to work for Planned Parenthood. That would be comparable to the meat packing workers taking a job where they would be required to handle pork. Why look for trouble?

My job allows a 15 minute break in the morning, 1 hour lunch, then another 15 minute break in the afternoon. I don’t have a clue how long the prayers take, or what the ritual washing involves, but there should be a way to accommodate them without undue stress on the business. There have been American Muslims for a long time…somebody must have worked this out somewhere.
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Completely agree with this assessment here. It does seem that those who are very outspoken on certain personal issues seek areas that directly contradict it.

Thus, many anti-abortion protestors seek to be visible outside of an abortion clinic.

Those who condone the homosexual lifestyle tend to gravitate towards family-friendly organizations.

Out of my own experience, however, I would like to add that I do get a distinct impression from those who practice the Muslim faith and it does border on a taste of intolerance. Even the current employees at my company seek to upset daily and weekly schedules with nothing short of publicly shrieking at their department manager until the demands are met. The dress code applies to everyone from corporate to frontline associate, accept these people. They can wear the attire how they want. When and where to eat food doesn’t apply to them either.

For those who practice this faith extremely, it demands the rest of the world to revolve around the practice. Accommodation is certainly not part of the equation.
 
hasikelee said:
Completely agree with this assessment here. It does seem that those who are very outspoken on certain personal issues seek areas that directly contradict it.

Thus, many anti-abortion protestors seek to be visible outside of an abortion clinic.

Those who condone the homosexual lifestyle tend to gravitate towards family-friendly organizations.

Out of my own experience, however, I would like to add that I do get a distinct impression from those who practice the Muslim faith and it does border on a taste of intolerance. Even the current employees at my company seek to upset daily and weekly schedules with nothing short of publicly shrieking at their department manager until the demands are met. The dress code applies to everyone from corporate to frontline associate, accept these people. They can wear the attire how they want. When and where to eat food doesn’t apply to them either.

For those who practice this faith extremely, it demands the rest of the world to revolve around the practice. Accommodation is certainly not part of the equation.
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And this kind of behavior shouldn’t be tolerated in the workplace. If one guy can’t eat at his desk, nobody can eat at his desk. Dress codes should be equally enforced.

But there are also plenty of Christians who are intolerant too. How many people say Catholics aren’t Christians? We do it to each other…traditionals and liberals, both sides have little barbs to shoot at the other. There’s intolerance all around us. Racial intolerance, gender intolerance, class intolerance.

As Catholics and Americans, I want us to rise about it.
 
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