Freemason = freedom builder ~~ Masons Children

[LostChemist]

Before the moderator shuts down this thread (as has been done in the past), I have created a group called “Catholic Freemasons” that I encourage freemasons and non-freemasons alike to join where we can continue the debate if this thread is closed. I intend the group to be one where we can all further discuss and debate these topics without fear of being banned, warned, or kicked for our views.

I believe that we should all be tolerant of the beliefs of others without anger. If you do not support the views of some, please do not run to the moderators because you are offended. I (and others that share my viewpoint) try to debate this topic in a healthy fashion without trying to incite anger. We are not trying to convince you that we are right, you are wrong. Rather, we are trying to present the evidence as we know it.

 

[cjmclark]

Particularly for those seeking to ‘label’ Freemasonry by reading a number of books, this presents an enormous challenge. It is particularly distressing for the anti-Mason arguing on religious grounds when they themselves are so used to speaking on behalf of far more people than they should. They regularly write such things as “All Christians believe …,” “Christians would agree…,” “You can’t be a Christian and believe…” assuming a mantle that is both false and preposterous in its assumptions.

This is why I have been very careful to point out only what is official Church doctrine. The Church currently teaches that you cannot be Catholic in good standing and be a Mason. That is fact, not opinion.

Before the moderator shuts down this thread (as has been done in the past), I have created a group called “Catholic Freemasons” that I encourage freemasons and non-freemasons alike to join where we can continue the debate if this thread is closed. I intend the group to be one where we can all further discuss and debate these topics without fear of being banned, warned, or kicked for our views.

I believe that we should all be tolerant of the beliefs of others without anger. If you do not support the views of some, please do not run to the moderators because you are offended. I (and others that share my viewpoint) try to debate this topic in a healthy fashion without trying to incite anger. We are not trying to convince you that we are right, you are wrong. Rather, we are trying to present the evidence as we know it.

I have no real personal feelings one way or the other regarding Freemasonry. I am aware that plenty of lodges engage in good charitable work. I do think there are a lot of silly conspiracy theories out there about Freemasonry, but there are also plenty out there about Catholic groups and orders. My only concern here was to correct the apparent misconception that it is currently permissible to be a Catholic in good standing with the Church and a Freemason. It is not, as I hope I’ve plainly shown.

I can’t really speak to the likelihood of that doctrine changing in the near future, but given that the current Pope (when he was Prefect of the CDF) authored the letter clarifying that membership in the Freemasons is forbidden, I would be surprised if it did.

As benjohnson so eloquently said earlier in the thread:

That said, no Catholic is really missing out - if you want to hang around with funny old men in silly hats and do good works, then the Knights of Columbus is just as awesome as Freemasonry.

I second this!

 

[cjmclark]

If you are all in for some reading, here is a letter written by Bernard Cardinal Law in 1985 where he explicitly outlines the Church’s objection to Freemasonry. It discusses, among other things, the misconception by some bishops that joining a Masonic lodge was permissible so long as it did not plot against the Church, and reaffirms that Catholics are forbidden from joining Masonic lodges.

 

[coachkfan1]

It’s actually a religion and one of which that promotes indifferentism and is anti-Christocentric. Such an organization is condemned by the Church and any member of the Church partaking in Masonic cults are condemned as well under pain of excommunication.

That’s right!

 

[ess1113a]

I refer you back to this post (forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9354005&postcount=18) where I quote the 1983 letter from the CDF that clarified the Canon Law with this (emphasis mine):

This isn’t “my view,” this is the official doctrine promulgated by the Vatican. No individual “Prince of the Church” can override official doctrine. If you want to follow the Church of Cardinal DeNardo, that’s your prerogative. I’ll stick with Rome. Only one cleric in the Church is guaranteed individual infallibility in the matter of faith and morals, and he happens to be the guy who wrote that letter.

Cardinal Daniel DeNardo has been a bishop since 1998 and a cardinal since 2004 elevated by Pope Benedict XVI. I am confident that the Holy Father had faith and confidence in Cardinal DeNardos ability to lead his flock. Since his letter on Freemasonry came out while he was a cardinal, it can only date as far back as 2007 thus a more recent and accurate reflection on the position of the Church.

 

[cjmclark]

Cardinal Daniel DeNardo has been a bishop since 1998 and a cardinal since 2004 elevated by Pope Benedict XVI. I am confident that the Holy Father had faith and confidence in Cardinal DeNardos ability to lead his flock. Since his letter on Freemasonry came out while he was a cardinal, it can only date as far back as 2007 thus a more recent and accurate reflection on the position of the Church.

Cardinal DeNardo does not proclaim doctrine for the whole Church. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith does. Unless the CDF (or the Pope himself) releases a statement rescinding that doctrine, it is still in effect.

 

[ess1113a]

Cardinal DeNardo does not proclaim doctrine for the whole Church. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith does. Unless the CDF (or the Pope himself) releases a statement rescinding that doctrine, it is still in effect.

Well now that was clarified you certainly turned me around on my values. Thank you for the clarification. I will immediately go and have all the Catholic children released from the Scottish Rite Hospitals, Scottish Rite Dyslexia learning centers, and Shrine Orthopedic Hospitals.

I presume that you have made allowances for these charities to be absorbed into something more conducive of your beliefs.

 

[LostChemist]

Well now that was clarified you certainly turned me around on my values. Thank you for the clarification. I will immediately go and have all the Catholic children released from the Scottish Rite Hospitals, Scottish Rite Dyslexia learning centers, and Shrine Orthopedic Hospitals.

I presume that you have made allowances for these charities to be absorbed into something more conducive of your beliefs.

Ess, I think that what’s going on here is that Catholics are allowed to accept and use freemason services without guilt. They just cannot join the group in order to further the cause of charity.

 

[cjmclark]

Well now that was clarified you certainly turned me around on my values. Thank you for the clarification. I will immediately go and have all the Catholic children released from the Scottish Rite Hospitals, Scottish Rite Dyslexia learning centers, and Shrine Orthopedic Hospitals.

I presume that you have made allowances for these charities to be absorbed into something more conducive of your beliefs.

This is an unhelpful emotional response to a logical argument. Nowhere have I stated that I think Freemasons are horrible people. I have only ever stated exactly what Church doctrine is - that it is currently forbidden for a Catholic to be a Freemason. I know the Masons do good work, but that in and of itself doesn’t make their organization compatible with the teachings of the Church. I’m not sure why you’re getting bent out of shape about this.

Oh, and LostChemist…Freemasons are allowed to avail themselves of Catholic medical care without having to be Catholic. I don’t think we want to play the “who’s charity is bigger” game today.

 

[LostChemist]

Oh, and LostChemist…Freemasons are allowed to avail themselves of Catholic medical care without having to be Catholic. I don’t think we want to play the “who’s charity is bigger” game today.

Ok, ok. Point taken on that one.

 

[ess1113a]

But isnt that morally wrong to avail yourself of the charity that Freemasonry provides then question the manner in which its provided?

 

[ess1113a]

This is an unhelpful emotional response to a logical argument. Nowhere have I stated that I think Freemasons are horrible people. I have only ever stated exactly what Church doctrine is - that it is currently forbidden for a Catholic to be a Freemason. I know the Masons do good work, but that in and of itself doesn’t make their organization compatible with the teachings of the Church. I’m not sure why you’re getting bent out of shape about this.

Oh, and LostChemist…Freemasons are allowed to avail themselves of Catholic medical care without having to be Catholic. I don’t think we want to play the “who’s charity is bigger” game today.

Unhelpful emotional response? Bent out of shape? Thats classic and unwarranted since you have no idea what my experiences are.

I have yet to see someone avail themselves of Catholic charity then actively work to eliminate the Catholic Church.

 

[cjmclark]

Unhelpful emotional response? Bent out of shape? Thats classic and unwarranted since you have no idea what my experiences are.

Well, I’ll go out on a limb and say that you are…

I was born and raised Catholic, baptized, confirmed, and married within the Church.
For the past 11 years I have been a Mason as was my father and grandfather. I go to mass every Sunday and I can point to a dozen other Catholic masons present in mass as well.
I am a past master, member of the Scottish Rite, York Rite, Shrine, and National Sojourners.
As a military officer I have served and attended lodges all over the US and some outside the US.
I have never, at any time, heard a single word contrary to the Catholic faith in any lodge I have been present at.
That cannot be conversely said. I have received random notes on my vehicle, always from anonymous sources. I have received phone calls from devout members of my parish that always refuse to identify themselves. My wife has been threatened with termination since she works at a Catholic school for my memberships. Yet through all of this I still am approached in the parking lot for parents to have their children apply for scholarships from the lodge and for admission to the Scottish Rite dyslexia learning center.

I get it. You’re a Catholic, you’re a Freemason, and you don’t like that there are some very vocal Catholics out there who (for various reasons, some more valid than others) oppose Freemasonry, often without understanding it. I don’t know how many different ways I can say this - I don’t harbor any personal feelings or grudges against Freemasonry. I freely admit that I don’t have a detailed understanding of its inner workings. I have said multiple times in this thread that Freemasons do a lot of good work. The only point I have made regarding Freemasonry is that Church doctrine currently prohibits membership. That’s it. I’m not writing notes to put on people’s windshields; I’m not making creepy phone calls; I’m simply conveying the Church doctrine on the matter. I can understand that you have a hard spot with that doctrine because you are a member of both, but that’s got nothing to do with me. Your issue with that doctrine is between you, your priest, the Pope, and God.

I have yet to see someone avail themselves of Catholic charity then actively work to eliminate the Catholic Church.

Have you ever been to Georgetown University?

(Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

I don’t know how anyone can possibly quantify the above statement since (to my knowledge) there haven’t been any studies done to answer that specific question. However, statistically speaking, the reach of Catholic Charities is so broad (medical care, family assistance, education, et c.) that it is entirely likely that some individuals who have availed themselves of their services hold anti-Catholic sentiments.

It sounds like you have had some bad experiences in particular with people at your own parish acting in a hypocritical fashion, and in general with (as I said before) vocal people lashing out against something they don’t fully understand. That, however, does not translate to Catholics as a whole (or the Church) actively working to eliminate Freemasonry. I’m truly sorry that you’ve had to deal with such frustrating issues.

 

[Bix]

Will someone please answer my question? What is the lore of the master mason? I have no intent on trying to debate or say anything to insult anyone, but seeing as there are clearly masons on this forum, I would appreciate an answer. Please.

Thanks~

 

[TS_Aquinas]

I have read their oaths and I have taken them in the past. I don’t see this as evil since it says NOTHING profane or against religious doctrine. Also, we should first quote references that are closest to the source or as unbiased as possible when using them in arguments. The line that you are referencing states, “SINCE in God you put your trust, your faith is well founded.” This statement is to indicate the basis for your belief system. It is because you put your trust in God that your faith is well founded. It doesn’t go on to say anything further about faith or dogma. I put my trust in God daily. I am happy to admit that. I also have many other beliefs that go with my faith of course. But above all, I do put my trust in God to watch over me, to answer my prayers when He deems it necessary, etc. I don’t think that there is anything evil about this unless you can show me good evidence otherwise.

So it isn’t dogmatic for a Mason to believe in any religion or his own do-it yourself belief? Or profess immortality of the soul or “celestial lodge in heaven?” When I see a necessity of belief in something concerning the supernatural, I like the rest of history and society, deem that to be a religion. But, since you are not Christian, the rule that it is a condemned practice, doesn’t apply to you. I hope you realize this entire time I have been arguing that it is evil to Christians alone.

Well, since I am a master mason, I am an authority myself on the subject. I can say that I am as much of an authority on the topic as those that were referenced earlier. I don’t mean to say that you should listen to me any more than you listened to others. This is why this is a debate. I am stating that the CURRENT views (and to my knowledge past views) state that freemasonry is NOT a religion and NOT inherently evil. If freemasonry in ANY way threatened my religious beliefs then I would instantly disavow the fraternity and ask God for forgiveness. As of yet, there has been no conflict in either my beliefs, my soul, or my prayers. I am of course playing the side of defending freemasonry and using my position as an “authority” in it to state my position. I also do believe that I am more knowledgable on the topic then most here which is why I’m stepping in at all. Because this is a debate though, I am willing to debate the topics openly with evidence and statements until someone can come up with something actually convincing. I am not blindly defending freemasonry as others have been blindly against it. I have the knowledge and would like to see a healthy debate by those that have actual beliefs or evidence on the topic and don’t just come back with, “It’s evil because the Church tells me so.”

It depends on your belief, which is unknown to us but clearly you do not follow Christ. If you did, this pluralistic belief would contradict everything he commanded.

No one person officially speaks for world wide Freemasonry!

Interesting, are you speaking official for all of freemasonry by stating this?

 

[ess1113a]

Well, I’ll go out on a limb and say that you are…

I get it. You’re a Catholic, you’re a Freemason, and you don’t like that there are some very vocal Catholics out there who (for various reasons, some more valid than others) oppose Freemasonry, often without understanding it. I don’t know how many different ways I can say this - I don’t harbor any personal feelings or grudges against Freemasonry. I freely admit that I don’t have a detailed understanding of its inner workings. I have said multiple times in this thread that Freemasons do a lot of good work. The only point I have made regarding Freemasonry is that Church doctrine currently prohibits membership. That’s it. I’m not writing notes to put on people’s windshields; I’m not making creepy phone calls; I’m simply conveying the Church doctrine on the matter. I can understand that you have a hard spot with that doctrine because you are a member of both, but that’s got nothing to do with me. Your issue with that doctrine is between you, your priest, the Pope, and God.

Have you ever been to Georgetown University?

(Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

I don’t know how anyone can possibly quantify the above statement since (to my knowledge) there haven’t been any studies done to answer that specific question. However, statistically speaking, the reach of Catholic Charities is so broad (medical care, family assistance, education, et c.) that it is entirely likely that some individuals who have availed themselves of their services hold anti-Catholic sentiments.

It sounds like you have had some bad experiences in particular with people at your own parish acting in a hypocritical fashion, and in general with (as I said before) vocal people lashing out against something they don’t fully understand. That, however, does not translate to Catholics as a whole (or the Church) actively working to eliminate Freemasonry. I’m truly sorry that you’ve had to deal with such frustrating issues.

I dont think you do get it. In fact you dont get it at all.
Having my house called at all ours of the night by anonymous parishoners, having my wife’s employment threatened, having notes left on a vehicle while I am attending mass, having the parish priest tell you that “random parishoners were googling your name and it came up associated with the lodge” and then having to face these hypocrites at mass. Thats when you will “get it”.
I mean honestly, what kind of Christians are we talking about here? Are these the people I should aspire to be like? Is this what Catholicism is about? No, I am not judging an entire faith by a few sad and twisted individuals but lets look at this realistically.
As a mason allow me to personally say with all truth that I DO NOT WORSHIP THE CHURCH OF FREEMASONY. There isnt such thing despite whatever the average person reads here. I cannot begin to refute all the half truths and flat out lies posted on here but freemasonry is not a religion, it does not worship any false Gods and it personally makes me a better husband, father, Christian, and Catholic.

I joined a lodge because it offered me a sense of history to match the heroes I was always reading about. George Washington, San Houston, Mirabeau B. Lamar, and so many others had that common theme. Were they perfect? Undoubtably not. But I have never had my house called or notes left on my vehicle by masons. My heroes have predominately been masons. I dont know is that is by design or default but it just worked out that way.

If I can help a child in a dyslexia learning center by helping to raise money for that groups, or help transport a child to a Shriners Hospital so that can receive free medical care, then you can bet that I am going to do exactly that.

All the months I was deployed to Iraq, it wasnt the parish that looked in on my wife to see if she needed anything. It was the masonic lodge. And yes the parish knew I was deployed. It wasnt the parish that helped my wife with a new water heater that went out while I was in Fallujah, it was the lodge.

I am sorry for taking this so personal but actions speak volumes to my simplistic mind. I love my faith and my Church totally and completely, but whatever edicts come from anyone that condemns an organization without any personal involvement or information lacks foundation and relevency. Whatever happened 300+ years ago has little bearing on the well being of me or my family today. I am sorry that so many feel that I am going to hell for my involvement with the Freemasons but if thats what hell is going to be populated with I am not too concerned with the company I will be with. I am fairly certain that I will see alot of fellow parishoners in the same line I will be in.

I also feel quite strongly that if we eliminated all the parishoners that were currently using artifical birth control, or had a tubiligation, or a vasectomy, had sex for recreation or outside of marriage, abused substances, failed to attend mass on a regular basis, or failed to adhere to a million other mandates then I feel that the mass would be pretty empty. I am pretty sure the physicians that are routinely prescribing birth control or performed tubiligations probably wouldnt be honored at mass for their dedication to building the new parish activity center wont be present at mass either. I guess we can look past those faults because all our attention will be dedicated to the elimination of freemasons.

 

[cjmclark]

I dont think you do get it. In fact you dont get it at all.
Having my house called at all ours of the night by anonymous parishoners, having my wife’s employment threatened, having notes left on a vehicle while I am attending mass, having the parish priest tell you that “random parishoners were googling your name and it came up associated with the lodge” and then having to face these hypocrites at mass. Thats when you will “get it”.
I mean honestly, what kind of Christians are we talking about here? Are these the people I should aspire to be like? Is this what Catholicism is about? No, I am not judging an entire faith by a few sad and twisted individuals but lets look at this realistically.
As a mason allow me to personally say with all truth that I DO NOT WORSHIP THE CHURCH OF FREEMASONY. There isnt such thing despite whatever the average person reads here. I cannot begin to refute all the half truths and flat out lies posted on here but freemasonry is not a religion, it does not worship any false Gods and it personally makes me a better husband, father, Christian, and Catholic.

I joined a lodge because it offered me a sense of history to match the heroes I was always reading about. George Washington, San Houston, Mirabeau B. Lamar, and so many others had that common theme. Were they perfect? Undoubtably not. But I have never had my house called or notes left on my vehicle by masons. My heroes have predominately been masons. I dont know is that is by design or default but it just worked out that way.

If I can help a child in a dyslexia learning center by helping to raise money for that groups, or help transport a child to a Shriners Hospital so that can receive free medical care, then you can bet that I am going to do exactly that.

All the months I was deployed to Iraq, it wasnt the parish that looked in on my wife to see if she needed anything. It was the masonic lodge. And yes the parish knew I was deployed. It wasnt the parish that helped my wife with a new water heater that went out while I was in Fallujah, it was the lodge.

I am sorry for taking this so personal but actions speak volumes to my simplistic mind. I love my faith and my Church totally and completely, but whatever edicts come from anyone that condemns an organization without any personal involvement or information lacks foundation and relevency. Whatever happened 300+ years ago has little bearing on the well being of me or my family today. I am sorry that so many feel that I am going to hell for my involvement with the Freemasons but if thats what hell is going to be populated with I am not too concerned with the company I will be with. I am fairly certain that I will see alot of fellow parishoners in the same line I will be in.

I also feel quite strongly that if we eliminated all the parishoners that were currently using artifical birth control, or had a tubiligation, or a vasectomy, had sex for recreation or outside of marriage, abused substances, failed to attend mass on a regular basis, or failed to adhere to a million other mandates then I feel that the mass would be pretty empty. I am pretty sure the physicians that are routinely prescribing birth control or performed tubiligations probably wouldnt be honored at mass for their dedication to building the new parish activity center wont be present at mass either. I guess we can look past those faults because all our attention will be dedicated to the elimination of freemasons.

Look. People sin all the time. People disobey the Church all the time. People are hypocritical all the time. None of that changes the fact that we’re all still supposed to follow the rules. Person x doing horrible thing y doesn’t absolve person a from their responsibility for doing not as horrible thing b. We’re still individually responsible to follow the rules even if not a single solitary soul around us is doing so.

It sucks that people at your parish are horrible to you. It sucks that you’re caught in a bind where you feel like the people who truly care about you (the lodge) are condemned by the people who should be caring about you (the parish). It sucks that a lot of people will just generally browbeat you with all sorts of ridiculous nonsense over Freemasonry being Satanic and such (not the Church’s position, by the way).

I’m not telling you you’re going to hell. No one can possibly know that but God, anyways, and it’s a sin in and of itself to speculate.

I’m not telling you that Masons are evil people. They’re just people, much like other people. They’ve organized to do charitable things, which is of course a good thing.

I’m not telling you it’s ok for all those folks at your parish to treat you the way that they do. We as Catholics are called to charity and that kind of harassment is pretty unconscionable. That’s crossed the line of what acceptable fraternal correction should be.

All I am saying, and all that I have been saying this whole time, is that it is currently the official position of the Church that Catholics cannot be in good standing and be Freemasons. That’s it. What you make of that is between you, your confessor, and God. I could throw the Pope in as well, because if the doctrine were ever going to change it would have to be by his order. But that’s it. I’m not passing judgment on you; as you said, I don’t know you (beyond what you’ve posted) and it’s on God to judge the state of your soul, not me. I’m not speculating on what Freemasonry believes or espouses.

It sounds like you’re in a messed-up situation and for that I’m as sorry as someone can be without being directly involved. I hope and pray that your fellow parishioners learn charity, and I will pray for you as well.

 

[ess1113a]

Thank you for the prayers.
Rest well assured that I will be praying for you as well. I have taken all four of the K of C degrees and I hope you get more out of them than I did. I took the degrees well before I was a Freemason so my membership wasnt skewed at that time.

 

[TEPO]

the masons have really done nothing for humanity anyways, but they claim George washington , as if that means something.