Freemasonry A Evil Group

[joe_clark]

yup nothings perfect. Science changes.

This has nothing to do with science and that is the point here. I don’t know about perfect?

 

[Roy5]

A COUPLE QUICK POINTS

I have no interest in Masonry, except that I know someone whose son's life was saved because he went to one of their burn facilities (at no charge) and eventually returned home and has gone on to enjoy a normal life. But here are a few random things that come to mind.

(1) My Dad was a Mason. He would attend church every year in June, with other Masons, all wearing their aprons, in celebration of St. John's Day, a distinctly Christian observance. We, his children, never thought of Masonry as being contrary to his devotion to his Christian faith. and he certainly never interpreted it that way either.

 (2) It is true that Masons can be of any faith which recognizes God. I don't see that as a reason to condemn them. Instead, it goes along well with the sort of tolerance that our nation permits and even encourages. I belong to several groups that are welcome people of different faiths, from the French-Canadian Genealogical Society to Sons of Union Veterans. Should I withdraw from such groups because they have Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, Bahai, Muslims, atheists, etc. in them? 

 (3) The murder of witches doesn't seem relevant to this thread. Certainly the Masons were against that. Burning witches was practiced both by Catholics and Protestants and neither group can fairly engage in finger-pointing. Obviously the Catholic Church suppressed heresy cruelly for centuries where it could, so its hands are not clean. Protestants were guilty of such crimes, too. This comes from thinking that one's religious views are the only true ones and that contrary ideas need to be eradicated. Even St. Thomas Aquinas favored executing heretics. His only proviso was that they should be hands over to the civil authorities to do the dirty work.

 (4) One problem is taking the Bible too literally. After all, the Old Testament says "suffer not a witch to live". This (a) assumes that there are witches and (b) calls for their extermination. Both fundamentalist Catholics and Protestants whose minds are narrow and bigoted are enemies of Christianity and America. It's as simple as that. There is such wicked arrogance in thinking that our particular version of religion is the only correct one. This will trouble some rabid readers, but so be it. It is religious extremism like that which is at the root of many of the world's problems today - as in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. Christians need to avoid this "with us or against us" lock-step thinking. Fine. We present our faith to others, but to demonize other faiths is dead wrong. There is wisdom in all of them.

  God bless the whole world - no exceptions. It's time that theological dogmatism be replaced with the teachings of Christ in his Sermon on the Mount and in his parable of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritans were 'heretics; but Jesus chose to make a Samaritan the hero of his story. That should tell us something!

 

[DallasTexas]

StevieD,

Thank you for your post.

Workingman has given answers to some of these points with regard to Our Lady of Good Success, just google it.

I briefly googled “Our Lady of Good Success” and freemason. What I found was a sight accusing freemasonry of being linked to communism and accusing freemasonry of being “closely” aligned with rosicurianism.

Freemasonry is very different from communism. Communism fights against religion. Freemasonry is for religion and one’s liberty to to choose which religion he or she follows. The idea of religious liberty is the only similarity I know of between Freemasonry and rosicurianism.

Regarding the ‘supporters’ to the coat of arms, try www.ugle.org.uk, you will see the coat of arms of the United Grand Lodge of England, alongside of which are two figures (known in heraldry as ‘supporters’, I understand).

On the above mentioned site, the supporters are referred to as cherubs. Cherubs are angels.

These figures have wings, red furred legs and cloven hooves! I would also recommed a book called ‘Darkness Visible’ by an Anglican clergyman called Walton Hannah. He examines the rites theologically and leaves no doubt that what is said and done in these ceremonies is heresy.

I have seen no heresy in any of the rituals of freemasonry of which I have been a part.

John J. Robinson explains the reason why the Church is so opposed to Freemasonry in his books “Born in Blood” which supports the Knights Templar theory of origin to the Freemasons, and “A Pilgrims Path” which deals with other objections to the fraternity.

Thank you again for your post.

 

[DallasTexas]

Hey workingman,

Thank you for the post–hope you’re doing well.

esoteric 1. understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest; recondite: poetry full of esoteric allusions.
2. belonging to the select few.
3. private; secret; confidential.
4. (of a philosophical doctrine or the like) intended to be revealed only to the initiates of a group: the esoteric doctrines of Pythagoras.

Synonyms:

1. abstruse, arcane, cryptic, enigmatic.
   (source dictionary.reference.com/browse/esoteric)

I must be still missing the point on this one. What esoteric knowledge are freemasons accused of having? What’s wrong about it? (The pythagorian theorem is now taught in most high school math text… right?)

MThey ban masons from committing adultery - but only with the wives and daughters of other masons!

This is true. What is wrong with it? Nowhere do the masons say that any other form of adultery is okay. What am I missing?

I think what is being referenced is that it is implied that out side of the lodge it is not forbiden in a oath/teachings. Though with a Masonic brother’s family and relative it is completely forbiden.

Freemasonry doesn’t explicitly condemn speeding. However this lack of foresight in no way means that they promote it.

What is being refered to here I believe is the Scottish Rite temple were one must go to be brought into the 33rd degree. So technicaly that would be a HQ.

I don’t know either so I will ask the same maby StevieD can enlighten us.

The Scottish Rite in Washington DC is only for the Southern Jurisdiction of the USA. The Northern Jurisdiction is in Boston…

This is a common tactic of anti-masons. They try to portray freemasonry as a hierarchical organization and that all the masons that everyone knows (family and friends) are good, but the guys at the top are the evil ones…

There’s only one problem with that… there is no such hierarchy.

You know this workingman.

Thank you again for your post.

 

[Hugh_Betcha]

Dallas,

Just wondering how you claim to be a Catholic and a Freemason. Without getting into the same old argument, it should be enough for you (since you claim to be Catholic) to trust that maybe the Church knows better than you.

The fact is, no matter how many times and ways you argue the point, you cannot be Catholic and Freemason.

 

[human_being]

A COUPLE QUICK POINTS

Instead, it goes along well with the sort of tolerance that our nation permits and even encourages.

This is the problem with our religion today.Not the intolerance/tolerance thing…but the putting of our nations(freemason) principles above the Church’s.Which was the achieved goal of freemasonry…Question the Faith.leads to confusion+ work of the devil.IMO.The republicans who the catholics are obliged to support due to abortion/marriage issues also are heavy in the promotion of freemason ideals of this country.

 

[workingman]

DallasTexas;5355853]Hey workingman,

Thank you for the post–hope you’re doing well.

I am thank thank you very much.

Freemasonry doesn’t explicitly condemn speeding. However this lack of foresight in no way means that they promote it.

Ok I see the logic you are applying but to lump speeding and the crime of addultery is a bit of a streach considering the moral implications there of.

The Scottish Rite in Washington DC is only for the Southern Jurisdiction of the USA. The Northern Jurisdiction is in Boston…

This is a common tactic of anti-masons. They try to portray freemasonry as a hierarchical organization and that all the masons that everyone knows (family and friends) are good, but the guys at the top are the evil ones…

There’s only one problem with that… there is no such hierarchy.

You know this workingman.

Boston or Washington DC don’t realy matter. One still has to travel to either to be confered into the 33rd degree. There is a bit of that hierarchy though not publicly acquknowledged. No point in haveing the degrees if there is going to be no hiearchy. That is like having a king or queen but they do not run the show.

Thank you again for your post.

You are most welcome. God bless you. :tiphat:

 

[workingman]

Originally Posted by Roy5
A COUPLE QUICK POINTS

Instead, it goes along well with the sort of tolerance that our nation permits and even encourages.

human being
This is the problem with our religion today.Not the intolerance/tolerance thing…but the putting of our nations(freemason) principles above the Church’s.Which was the achieved goal of freemasonry…Question the Faith.leads to confusion+ work of the devil.IMO.The republicans who the catholics are obliged to support due to abortion/marriage issues also are heavy in the promotion of freemason ideals of this country.

I must throw in my :twocents: It has everything to do with tokerance and intolerance. One in this country can ritisize everything except that witch speeks out against Christianity. It is ok to speek out against Christianity but when the CC or other Christian Church kicks back we are religious biggots on a persacution mission. This nation is not founded souly on Freemasonry principles but Christian principals. human yes some of the republicans are masons along with dem’s. What is your point. I think it show’s how deeply entrenched it is in the world culture.

 

[workingman]

Roy5
(1) My Dad was a Mason. He would attend church every year in June, with other Masons, all wearing their aprons, in celebration of St. John’s Day, a distinctly Christian observance. We, his children, never thought of Masonry as being contrary to his devotion to his Christian faith. and he certainly never interpreted it that way either.

Yes they do this in heavily populated Christian countries. You note as a group though they only do it one time a year. What do you suppose they do in countries that are not heavily Christian? There are lodges where the Holy Bible is not center on the masonic altar.

Roy5
(2) It is true that Masons can be of any faith which recognizes God. I don’t see that as a reason to condemn them. Instead, it goes along well with the sort of tolerance that our nation permits and even encourages. I belong to several groups that are welcome people of different faiths, from the French-Canadian Genealogical Society to Sons of Union Veterans. Should I withdraw from such groups because they have Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, Bahai, Muslims, atheists, etc. in them?

Roy you state it almost perfect in the first sentence excep it should be god not God. I will probably be considered a biggot but that is the the problem tolerance of everything nothing is never evil. Well as said on one of my favorite radio shows Garage Logic. B as in B and S as in S. Roy do these groups use religious belief as one of there primary basises of acceptance or indoctrination? I would guess not.

 

[Roy5]

GOD TOO BIG FOR ONLY ONE RELIGION?

 Let me begin by saying that I have traveled much of the world, visited mosques and all sorts of temples (Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh, Jewish of course, etc.). I have friends of most faiths who are intelligent, well-informed and gracious. When we talk religion, which can be often, we don't demean the faith of one another but are curious, ready to learn how others may view God, eternal life, and other aspects of their religion. There is wisdom and very wise people in every faith.

  Personally, I don't think that any religion has all the truth. As Harry Emerson Fosdick said years ago, "I cannot believe in a God I can understand."  It always amazes me that with maybe a billion solar systems out there we somehow think that our particular faith has a monopoly when it comes to truth. My guess is that all of us are like ants trying to understand a piano.    

  Sadly, religious arrogance has caused countless injustices. Consider the Protestant oppression of Catholics in Ireland, Catholic oppression of Protestants in places like France. My Catholic ancestors were not allowed in colonial New England while my Protestant (Huguenot) ancestors were not allowed in New France. Stupid bigotry. 

   I'm sympathetic to those of any religion who want to live in peace and harmony with others. They can hold fast to their faith and even try to convert me - fine - but please don't treat me like my faith or my understanding or my religious knowledge is inferior or false. Too much of the dialogue here in CAF is predicated on such assumptions, that there is only one true faith. What a shock many will get when (and if) they get to heaven and find it full of people whom they viewed as 'heretics' or 'heathen' by many here on earth. I'm sure that God doesn't look at our theology or our church connection but at our heart. To me, that's clearly the core message of Christ.

  God bless the whole world - no exceptions. And may we learn to live in mutual respect instead of clinging to religious arrogance and an air of condescension.

 

[StevieD]

GOD TOO BIG FOR ONLY ONE RELIGION?

 Let me begin by saying that I have traveled much of the world, visited mosques and all sorts of temples (Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh, Jewish of course, etc.). I have friends of most faiths who are intelligent, well-informed and gracious. When we talk religion, which can be often, we don't demean the faith of one another but are curious, ready to learn how others may view God, eternal life, and other aspects of their religion. There is wisdom and very wise people in every faith.

  Personally, I don't think that any religion has all the truth. As Harry Emerson Fosdick said years ago, "I cannot believe in a God I can understand."  It always amazes me that with maybe a billion solar systems out there we somehow think that our particular faith has a monopoly when it comes to truth. My guess is that all of us are like ants trying to understand a piano.    

  Sadly, religious arrogance has caused countless injustices. Consider the Protestant oppression of Catholics in Ireland, Catholic oppression of Protestants in places like France. My Catholic ancestors were not allowed in colonial New England while my Protestant (Huguenot) ancestors were not allowed in New France. Stupid bigotry. 

   I'm sympathetic to those of any religion who want to live in peace and harmony with others. They can hold fast to their faith and even try to convert me - fine - but please don't treat me like my faith or my understanding or my religious knowledge is inferior or false. Too much of the dialogue here in CAF is predicated on such assumptions, that there is only one true faith. What a shock many will get when (and if) they get to heaven and find it full of people whom they viewed as 'heretics' or 'heathen' by many here on earth. I'm sure that God doesn't look at our theology or our church connection but at our heart. To me, that's clearly the core message of Christ.

  God bless the whole world - no exceptions. And may we learn to live in mutual respect instead of clinging to religious arrogance and an air of condescension.

Very nice sentiments! Unfortunately this is gross heresy in Christian (not merely Catholic) terms (What denomination of Protestant can you be?). Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life, no-one goes to the Father except through Him, we have His word upon it. Jesus founded a Church to lead humanity to the Father. That Church is the Catholic Church. If the Church instructs us not to join secret societies, as it does, it is not for us to question it (seems perfectly reasonable to most of us anyway). I do accept that good people (i.e. those who do what Jesus said that we should do) go to heaven not merely religious people or those of a particular religion but this is a totally different position to yours.

 

[seziscatholic]

Hi,

I’m new to CAF and I’m sorry I haven’t read all the posts but I do know whats important and that is to get a mass said for your family. There are many curses that can come upon your family through Freemasonry. Things like child bearing problems etc… I think seek advice from a priest you know that has the knowledge in this area.
God Bless

 

[Roy5]

STEVIED

You wonder what kind of Protestant can I be. You must be aware that Protestants come in many flavors. There are hard-nose fundamentalists who think like hard-nose Catholics - there is only one way and it is their way. Interestingly, it is among these where anti-Catholicism is most likely to show its face.

 There are the middle-road Protestants who accept the traditional Christian basics - virgin birth of Jesus, probably Adam and Eve, Christ's miracles, etc. Most of this group pay little attention to the fine points of theology.

  I belong to a third group, and there are many millions of us. We feel the freedom to think for ourselves, develop our own opinions on the basis of our own understanding of the scriptures, and respect the opinions of others even when we disagree. We belong to one of many denominations - mainly mainstream, like Methodists, UCC, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans, some Baptists, etc. - but we reserve the right to take issue graciously with our ministers or the creeds or whatever. I, for one, don't believe in the Virgin Birth, certainly don't believe in Adam and Eve, and am very skeptical of many of the miracles found in the Bible. There is much wisdom in the scriptures but also much nonsense - such as the story that God ordered King Saul to kill every Amalekite. Nationalist and evil propaganda. How is that compatible with the Ten Commandments? And think of all the babies slaughtered still in their mothers' wombs. People like me are split on the issue of abortion, most of them pro-life except in rare situations where the life of the mother is in peril - for example. We are not 'one-issue' people, however, as many CAF participants seem to be. Many of us have a somewhat pacifist inclination, feeling that Jesus expressed this attitude in the Sermon on the Mount. 

  Actually, many Catholics belong to this third group. They may go to mass with some regularity, but polls have shown that they reject such doctrines as transubstantiation, the Immaculate Conception, and such. 

  We do not judge the religion of others, though we may prefer our own. There are many among us who deeply respect the work Catholicism does in the field of medicine and among the poor but feel that too much of Catholicism is a hang-over from medieval times, with some of the superstitions common to that era. Many 'saint stories' seem loaded with legends and myths. 

   So, I have no problem with the Masons and their refusal to condemn other faiths. I agree with that approach. I have learned a lot from other religions (and taught comparative religions in college for several years). 

   But may God bless everybody, including you. I am disappointed that religion is so often a barrier when it should be a bridge as we all seek to serve God and humankind.

 

[StevieD]

STEVIED

You wonder what kind of Protestant can I be. You must be aware that Protestants come in many flavors. There are hard-nose fundamentalists who think like hard-nose Catholics - there is only one way and it is their way. Interestingly, it is among these where anti-Catholicism is most likely to show its face.

 There are the middle-road Protestants who accept the traditional Christian basics - virgin birth of Jesus, probably Adam and Eve, Christ's miracles, etc. Most of this group pay little attention to the fine points of theology.

  I belong to a third group, and there are many millions of us. We feel the freedom to think for ourselves, develop our own opinions on the basis of our own understanding of the scriptures, and respect the opinions of others even when we disagree. We belong to one of many denominations - mainly mainstream, like Methodists, UCC, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans, some Baptists, etc. - but we reserve the right to take issue graciously with our ministers or the creeds or whatever. I, for one, don't believe in the Virgin Birth, certainly don't believe in Adam and Eve, and am very skeptical of many of the miracles found in the Bible. There is much wisdom in the scriptures but also much nonsense - such as the story that God ordered King Saul to kill every Amalekite. Nationalist and evil propaganda. How is that compatible with the Ten Commandments? And think of all the babies slaughtered still in their mothers' wombs. People like me are split on the issue of abortion, most of them pro-life except in rare situations where the life of the mother is in peril - for example. We are not 'one-issue' people, however, as many CAF participants seem to be. Many of us have a somewhat pacifist inclination, feeling that Jesus expressed this attitude in the Sermon on the Mount. 

  Actually, many Catholics belong to this third group. They may go to mass with some regularity, but polls have shown that they reject such doctrines as transubstantiation, the Immaculate Conception, and such. 

  We do not judge the religion of others, though we may prefer our own. There are many among us who deeply respect the work Catholicism does in the field of medicine and among the poor but feel that too much of Catholicism is a hang-over from medieval times, with some of the superstitions common to that era. Many 'saint stories' seem loaded with legends and myths. 

   So, I have no problem with the Masons and their refusal to condemn other faiths. I agree with that approach. I have learned a lot from other religions (and taught comparative religions in college for several years). 

   But may God bless everybody, including you. I am disappointed that religion is so often a barrier when it should be a bridge as we all seek to serve God and humankind.

Thanks for your trouble but I think I had already assumed most of the above. I just wondered what denomination you belong to but I now see that you belong to your very own and so can make up your own rules and expect the whole world to obey them. You are just as zealous in the defence of your ‘church’ than any fundamentalist, you are a fundamentalist religious libertarian who just cannot understand how anyone could think otherwise!

 

[Roy5]

STEVIED

Have it your way. I do feel that there is a considerable difference between those of us (we are millions) who have faith in God but don't claim to know most of the details. As I recall, the Bible suggests that we live by faith and not by knowledge. For those who need some sort of central authority, whether the Papacy or their particular version of scripture, fine. A free country, thank God! 

  I do not think it is either fair or correct to lump us along with fundamentalists, whether Catholic or Protestant. Fundamentalists insist upon this or that set of doctrines. Those who share my 'big tent' view don't speak of heretics or heresies. When somebody presents another point of view we are likely to comment: "That's interesting, Tell me more." How many traditionalist Catholics or Protestant fundamentalists share that kind of open mind? You seem to want to make us what we're not. Is it a sign of defensiveness, insecurity, narrow-mindedness, indoctrination, simple devotion or something else? I hope it's simple devotion. 

  In any case, God bless you and everybody in the world. Someday maybe we can learn to live in an atmosphere of mutal respect and exchange viewpoints without vituperation. There is so much we don't know and I enjoy hearing other opinions. Why else would I spend time here on CAF? Actually, I probably should devote it to other projects.

 

[StevieD]

STEVIED

Have it your way. I do feel that there is a considerable difference between those of us (we are millions) who have faith in God but don't claim to know most of the details. As I recall, the Bible suggests that we live by faith and not by knowledge. For those who need some sort of central authority, whether the Papacy or their particular version of scripture, fine. A free country, thank God! 

  I do not think it is either fair or correct to lump us along with fundamentalists, whether Catholic or Protestant. Fundamentalists insist upon this or that set of doctrines. Those who share my 'big tent' view don't speak of heretics or heresies. When somebody presents another point of view we are likely to comment: "That's interesting, Tell me more." How many traditionalist Catholics or Protestant fundamentalists share that kind of open mind? You seem to want to make us what we're not. Is it a sign of defensiveness, insecurity, narrow-mindedness, indoctrination, simple devotion or something else? I hope it's simple devotion. 

  In any case, God bless you and everybody in the world. Someday maybe we can learn to live in an atmosphere of mutal respect and exchange viewpoints without vituperation. There is so much we don't know and I enjoy hearing other opinions. Why else would I spend time here on CAF? Actually, I probably should devote it to other projects.

I agree, you should devote your time to other projects. The only big tent I have ever been in was full of clowns. You have to decide whether Jesus was mad, bad or God and if the latter, you have to act on it. This does not entail regarding Wicca or Hinduism e.g. as just as valid as Christianity, nice as that attitude seems to be to you and millions of others.

 

[human_being]

I agree, you should devote your time to other projects. The only big tent I have ever been in was full of clowns. You have to decide whether Jesus was mad, bad or God and if the latter, you have to act on it. This does not entail regarding Wicca or Hinduism e.g. as just as valid as Christianity, nice as that attitude seems to be to you and millions of others.

I agree with the positions for the church but I don’t think it’s to cool to attack so personally on this site. You’ll probably get in trouble cause we’re not gonna get to far with harsh personal attacks. I’ve also had some heated arguments but you’ve got to chill on the nasty attacks.

 

[human_being]

STEVIED

Have it your way. I do feel that there is a considerable difference between those of us (we are millions) who have faith in God but don't claim to know most of the details. As I recall, the Bible suggests that we live by faith and not by knowledge. For those who need some sort of central authority, whether the Papacy or their particular version of scripture, fine. A free country, thank God! 

  I do not think it is either fair or correct to lump us along with fundamentalists, whether Catholic or Protestant. Fundamentalists insist upon this or that set of doctrines. Those who share my 'big tent' view don't speak of heretics or heresies. When somebody presents another point of view we are likely to comment: "That's interesting, Tell me more." How many traditionalist Catholics or Protestant fundamentalists share that kind of open mind? You seem to want to make us what we're not. Is it a sign of defensiveness, insecurity, narrow-mindedness, indoctrination, simple devotion or something else? I hope it's simple devotion. 

  In any case, God bless you and everybody in the world. Someday maybe we can learn to live in an atmosphere of mutal respect and exchange viewpoints without vituperation. There is so much we don't know and I enjoy hearing other opinions. Why else would I spend time here on CAF? Actually, I probably should devote it to other projects.

There are numerous protestant denomanational condemnations of freemasonry on earlier pages posted by workingman and KiyvAndrew on earlier pages. It has been condemned by most major protestant denominations and the links lead to legitimate sites. Please go back a few pages and find them. Andrew listed just about every one on one page.

 

[Roy5]

Yes, I’m aware that various Protestant groups have condemned the Masons, too. That doesn’t impress me much. I guess I’m tired of this group condemning that group etc etc. We need to broaden our minds and be more accepting of those who may differ with us.

 As I said early on, I have no interest in the Masons. They don't appeal to me for a number of reasons. But to rant and rail against them is silly. They are about as honorable a group as Catholics or Baptists or the Salvation Army. There may be some skeletons in their closet from past history, but Catholics certainly have to be careful not to make that a big issue. At least I don't know of any Masons who conducted large-scale slaughters directed at 'heretics' (e. g., Albigensians, Huguenots, etc.). 

  Most CAFers reject the Masonic attitude toward religion, which is non-sectarian. I find that a plus and not a minus. We need more groups which don't judge and disallow people because they are of other faiths.

  What  I do know best about Masons is that they spent millions annually on providing health care and other blessings on those of every faith. I like that. I have a friend whose young son was rushed to one of their burn centers and came home well - and at no charge to his parents! That's Christianity to me, whatever others may call it.

   As for their secret stuff, college fraternities and sororities indulge in the same thing. No big deal as far as I can see. Just exercising American freedom  Lots of those early Masons - Washington, Franklin, Hancock and others - were 'Founding Fathers' in our country's struggle for freedom. Are they to be condemned for their Masonic ties or praised for gaining us the independence we celebrate later this week?

 

[StevieD]

I agree with the positions for the church but I don’t think it’s to cool to attack so personally on this site. You’ll probably get in trouble cause we’re not gonna get to far with harsh personal attacks. I’ve also had some heated arguments but you’ve got to chill on the nasty attacks.

Sorry, what was “nasty” in what I said? I have not said anything personal, let alone harshly personal, as far as I can see.