freemasonry

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catharina said:
My word of defense: it’s not true of ALL politicians (IMO).
Code: 
However many Catholic politicians are pro-choice.
Many Catholic politicians are against social justice.

Along with adherence to masonry, a conclusion is: 
some Catholic politicians choose to embrace serious sin.
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True, true.
 
andrew_chong said:
what is the church current and official view on freemasonry and the reasons
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Judging by the look of things, there isn’t any! They are in shambles! They don’t know whether they are coming or going as far as Freemasonry is concerned! 😃 😛 🙂

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
Judging by the look of things, there isn’t any! They are in shambles! They don’t know whether they are coming or going as far as Freemasonry is concerned! 😃 😛 🙂

zerinus
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Duh, it is because we are now focused on the Mormon threat…😉 😛 👍
 
catharina said:
My word of defense: it’s not true of ALL politicians (IMO).
Code: 
However many Catholic politicians are pro-choice.
Many Catholic politicians are against social justice.

Along with adherence to masonry, a conclusion is: 
some Catholic politicians choose to embrace serious sin.
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I think Ralph said it in jest.
 
catharina said:
What “we” Ralph?

The success was all yours.
(Congrats.)
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Oh. no. I had nothing to do with it. Freemasonry as it was understood 100 years ago is not the same as it is today. It can join Communism and all the others who have tried to destroy our Church.
 
ralphinal said:
Hey, we ran them into the ground. You’re next, zippy 😉 😛 😃
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Except that Masonry posed no “threat”. You were chasing the wind with that one. You wasted all you ammunition on Masonry, and now you have nothing to fight Mormonism with! 😃 It appears that they are still not willing to give up on that wild goose chase.

Organized Masonry as we know it today started in England in the 17th century; and from there it spread to Europe and other countries. At that time an incredible amount of hostility and deep suspicion existed between the Catholic Church and Protestant England. It is hard for us now to imagine how deep the divisions and hostility between them were. Organized Masonry, having started in Protestant England, and being secret, naturally aroused deep suspicious among the Catholics, and they saw it as a threat. They thought that if Catholics became Masons, the Protestants could use it as a tool to subvert the Catholic Church—and being secret, the Church would have no control over it. That seems to have been the underlying cause of the hostility between the two. But now that it has become obvious that that threat no longer exists (in fact never existed), it cannot change. The biggest problem with the Catholic Church is that it cannot change; and that is going to be its undoing. The most important change that the Catholic Church needs to make in its organization right now is to open the priesthood to married men. They can learn a lesson from the LDS Church. I have never known a Mormon bishop who wasn’t married. But they won’t do it because they cannot change; and that will be their undoing.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
Except that Masonry posed no “threat”. You were chasing the wind with that one. You wasted all you ammunition on Masonry, and now you have nothing to fight Mormonism with! 😃 It appears that they are still not willing to give up on that wild goose chase.

Organized Masonry as we know it today started in England in the 17th century; and from there it spread to Europe and other countries. At that time an incredible amount of hostility and deep suspicion existed between the Catholic Church and Protestant England. It is hard for us now to imagine how deep the divisions and hostility between them were. Organized Masonry, having started in Protestant England, and being secret, naturally aroused deep suspicious among the Catholics, and they saw it as a threat. They thought that if Catholics became Masons, the Protestants could use it as a tool to subvert the Catholic Church—and being secret, the Church would have no control over it. That seems to have been the underlying cause of the hostility between the two. But now that it has become obvious that that threat no longer exists (in fact never existed), it cannot change. The biggest problem with the Catholic Church is that it cannot change; and that is going to be its undoing. The most important change that the Catholic Church needs to make in its organization right now is to open the priesthood to married men. They can learn a lesson from the LDS Church. I have never known a Mormon bishop who wasn’t married. But they won’t do it because they cannot change; and that will be their undoing.

zerinus
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I believe that the Church will change its position on Freemasonry --at least for the US, Canada, and others for similar discipline.

I pray that the ban on Freemasonry will go the way of the ban on cremation.
 
zerinus said:
Except that Masonry posed no “threat”. You were chasing the wind with that one. You wasted all you ammunition on Masonry, and now you have nothing to fight Mormonism with! 😃 It appears that they are still not willing to give up on that wild goose chase.

Organized Masonry as we know it today started in England in the 17th century; and from there it spread to Europe and other countries. At that time an incredible amount of hostility and deep suspicion existed between the Catholic Church and Protestant England. It is hard for us now to imagine how deep the divisions and hostility between them were. Organized Masonry, having started in Protestant England, and being secret, naturally aroused deep suspicious among the Catholics, and they saw it as a threat. They thought that if Catholics became Masons, the Protestants could use it as a tool to subvert the Catholic Church—and being secret, the Church would have no control over it. That seems to have been the underlying cause of the hostility between the two. But now that it has become obvious that that threat no longer exists (in fact never existed), it cannot change. The biggest problem with the Catholic Church is that it cannot change; and that is going to be its undoing. The most important change that the Catholic Church needs to make in its organization right now is to open the priesthood to married men. They can learn a lesson from the LDS Church. I have never known a Mormon bishop who wasn’t married. But they won’t do it because they cannot change; and that will be their undoing.

zerinus
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Re-read the history on this one. Most of the issues with Freemasonry existed in the Contenental Version, those most influenced by the French lodges, not the British ones. This was the most violent anti-Church and anti-Cleric branch. The Masonry that came to the US was of a different ilk. I dare say like LDS to FLDS. Same letters, different intentions and faith.
 
ralphinal said:
Re-read the history on this one. Most of the issues with Freemasonry existed in the Contenental Version, those most influenced by the French lodges, not the British ones. This was the most violent anti-Church and anti-Cleric branch. The Masonry that came to the US was of a different ilk. I dare say like LDS to FLDS. Same letters, different intentions and faith.
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I am aware that some people cannot tell the difference between conspiracy theories and history.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
I am aware that some people cannot tell the difference between conspiracy theories and history.

zerinus
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zerinus,
You are one of the most consistantly logical people on this site. I can almost always back up every assertion that you make. I admire the fact that you are knowledgeable and well-read, and I have learned from you.

You cannot however make the leap to the Catholic Church seeing conspiracies when you look at the facts of French and mainland Europe Freemasonry. Within the last 100 years, Mexican Freemasonry, heavily influenced by the French sort, ran one of the bloodiest campaigns against the Catholic Church in the history of the Western Hemisphere. That, my friend, is not being worried about the shadow government or whatever. That is called fact. The Freemasonry that we are used to in america is not the same. That does not mean that all Freemasonry is good, not does my statement mean that all is bad.

The Church based its rulings on Freemasonry as it had been exposed to: the violent, anti-Catholic kind. Even Zorro will tell you that this is not the Freemasonry here, but a kind that did exist in Europe. His position is based on there being two different kinds of Masonic Lodges.
 
ralphinal said:
zerinus,
You are one of the most consistantly logical people on this site. I can almost always back up every assertion that you make. I admire the fact that you are knowledgeable and well-read, and I have learned from you.

You cannot however make the leap to the Catholic Church seeing conspiracies when you look at the facts of French and mainland Europe Freemasonry. Within the last 100 years, Mexican Freemasonry, heavily influenced by the French sort, ran one of the bloodiest campaigns against the Catholic Church in the history of the Western Hemisphere. That, my friend, is not being worried about the shadow government or whatever. That is called fact. The Freemasonry that we are used to in america is not the same. That does not mean that all Freemasonry is good, not does my statement mean that all is bad.

The Church based its rulings on Freemasonry as it had been exposed to: the violent, anti-Catholic kind. Even Zorro will tell you that this is not the Freemasonry here, but a kind that did exist in Europe. His position is based on there being two different kinds of Masonic Lodges.
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Thanks for your post, as always accurate. As long as freemasonry exists with its terribly problematical views (well-known and observed in many countries), the Church has no choice but to BAN Catholic membership in masonic ventures. The international basis of masonry taints all masons whether a certain lodge is large or small, here or there. That’s the way it goes.
 
catharina said:
Thanks for your post, as always accurate. As long as freemasonry exists with its terribly problematical views (well-known and observed in many countries), the Church has no choice but to BAN Catholic membership in masonic ventures. The international basis of masonry taints all masons whether a certain lodge is large or small, here or there. That’s the way it goes.
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We must be careful about the issue of the behavior of some tainting many since that has happened with the behavior of some within many organizations including the Catholic Church.

I agree that the Church has certain concerns about the Masonic Order and that a Catholic must pay attention to those. However, we cannot let hysteria and misunderstanding about Masonry govern our understanding. We have the nonsense perpetuated by Chick publications and based on Leo Taxil’s fraud (eg statements attributed to Albert Pike that are NOT in Morals and Dogma).

The Masonic Order is an old (some historians such as Robinson trace it back to the Templar’s others not) and venerable organization that teaches and promotes men being men of integrity, honor, faithful and reverent to their God, loyal citizens of their nation and leaving a lasting legacy of service to mankind. The ranks of that brotherhood have included some of the greatest men and women in every field of society from government, the arts, the military, explorers and so on. These are facts. That the world has been left better off, that America has been left better off because of the contributions of Freemasons is also fact. The Bible talks about knowing people by their fruit and based on that the Masonic Order has benefited the world immeasurably.
 
RevDrNorth said:
I agree that the Church has certain concerns about the Masonic Order and that a Catholic must pay attention to those. However, we cannot let hysteria and misunderstanding about Masonry govern our understanding. We have the nonsense perpetuated by Chick publications and based on Leo Taxil’s fraud (eg statements attributed to Albert Pike that are NOT in Morals and Dogma).
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The fact that the Church has “certain concerns” is more than good enough for me - I’m Catholic. I see no hysteria or misunderstanding about masonry governing the Church’s understanding. Whatever fascinationg nonsense comes from Chick publications or concerns Leo Taxil’s fraud are issues completely unknown to me. I couldn’t care less about either.

As I said, I’m Catholic.
 
Let me ponder this for a moment: a Catholic does something wrong, in the name of the Church, but not under Church orders or directive (such as the sacking of Constantinople). It is not the Church’s fault, but for 600 years we are blaimed for it. Eventually, a pope says that we are sorry that this happened, but it is not enough to appologize.

A Freemason does something wrong, in the name of Freemasonry, and for the sake of this argument not under Masonic orders or directive (such as the massacres in Mexico). This, however, is not Freemasonry’s fault and they cannot be blaimed for it. No one needs to say that they are sorry and there is no need to appologize.

WRONG!

There have been more than a few attacks on Catholics by Masons through the years. European Masonry has, at its heart, every single issue that the Church has with Freemasonry. It has manifested itself over and over again in many countries. Even here in Alabama, Masonic lodges are segregated and many Klansmen are members.

In order for the Church to lift the ban on the Masons, they will have to show that the issues that the Church has are no longer present, not that the Church is wrong about the issues themselve. Come clean, admit Masonic wrongs, and then fix the problems.

I trust the Church’s judgement on right and wrong more than any other possible group, including Freemasonry.
 
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