freemasonry

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zerinus said:
First of all, there were no “preponderance of evidence” against Masonry, and the Papal Bull does not mention any. Second, comparing a rigorous judicial process to a Papal Bull is like comparing apples with car tires. Third, in a murder investigation conclusive evidence may be nonexistent or difficult to obtain; in freemasonry, evidence is readily available, from the Masons themselves. In the in-depth investigation into Masonry carried out by the West German Conference of Bishops in 1980, which lasted 6 years, the Freemasons fully cooperated with the bishops in their inquiry, and provided them with all the information required for the purpose.

As I said before, your thought process and arguments are so irational that it makes an intelligent discussion impossible. No further comment is required for the remainder of your post.

zerinus
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The only thing is that conference was 300 years later. Do you think the early masons would have cooperated?
 
zerinus said:
First of all, there were no “preponderance of evidence” against Masonry, and the Papal Bull does not mention any. Second, comparing a rigorous judicial process to a Papal Bull is like comparing apples with car tires. Third, in a murder investigation conclusive evidence may be nonexistent or difficult to obtain; in freemasonry, evidence is readily available, from the Masons themselves. In the in-depth investigation into Masonry carried out by the West German Conference of Bishops in 1980, which lasted 6 years, the Freemasons fully cooperated with the bishops in their inquiry, and provided them with all the information required for the purpose.

As I said before, your thought process and arguments are so irational that it makes an intelligent discussion impossible. No further comment is required for the remainder of your post.

zerinus
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**

My opinion of Ralph’s treatment of all in this thread is that he has presented a large of helping of charity and that his sense of charity has always been the platform for his reasoning. **

**
One might decide to disagree with him, but I doubt there’s any justification for faulting his charity or his reasonableness. **
 
ralphinal said:
The only thing is that conference was 300 years later. Do you think the early masons would have cooperated?
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Perhaps not as fully; but I am sure some form of compromise or agreement could have been reached if the Catholic Church had not shut the door by its unjustifiable hostility from the start. Just as Freemasonry and the English church were able to coexist peacefully, the same would have been possible with the Catholic Church. It was not Freemasonry that started out by being hostile to the Catholic Church. It was the Catholic Church that started out being hostile to Freemasonry.

zerinus
 
Why would the Catholic CHurch even think about being hostile with the masons, Do ya think because maybe they are anti-Catholic and hate the Catholic Church. The Church was here long before the masons, so the church are not the first to draw first blood, get a life, and open up your eyes for goodness sake, why would the Church be against them if they didnt have proof they were no good for the Catholic community. Why didnt the Catholic Church forbid other things then. Please we have enough proof, we have leaders to protect us. And we will do what they say not what you say, and as I told you before we answer to the Pope not you. We will follow the word of the Lord.
 
zerinus said:
Perhaps not as fully; but I am sure some form of compromise or agreement could have been reached if the Catholic Church had not shut the door by its unjustifiable hostility from the start. Just as Freemasonry and the English church were able to coexist peacefully, the same would have been possible with the Catholic Church. It was not Freemasonry that started out by being hostile to the Catholic Church. It was the Catholic Church that started out being hostile to Freemasonry.

zerinus
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I think that both of us are making the same assumption but opposite sides of it. I am assuming that within the years between the first papal proclamation and the founding of Masonry, the lodges had shown themselves to be problematic. You are assuming the opposite. It seems that there is no proof either way.
 
ralphinal said:
I think that both of us are making the same assumption but opposite sides of it. I am assuming that within the years between the first papal proclamation and the founding of Masonry, the lodges had shown themselves to be problematic. You are assuming the opposite. It seems that there is no proof either way.
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I am doing neither. I am merely noting that the Pope’s allegations against Freemasonry in the Papal Bull have no basis in fact or in observation, and the Pope does not claim that they have. It is a slanderous statement which claims for its basis no other crime of Freemasonry except its secrecy; and its tone suggests that it was motivated by jealousy and greed rather than by anything else.

In fact, the Bull acknowledges that Freemasonry has “the appearance of natural probity”. In other words, by all accounts it appears to be an honorable institution. No impropriety has been observed in it to make it suspect. The only cause for suspicion, according to the Bull, is its secrecy. And on the basis of that alone the Pope is willing to call it “depraved and perverted” and “evil”. That is not the kind of judgment one would expect from a respectable institution such as the Catholic Church claims to be.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
I am doing neither. I am merely noting that the Pope’s allegations against Freemasonry in the Papal Bull have no basis in fact or in observation, and the Pope does not claim that they have. It is a slanderous statement which claims for its basis no other crime of Freemasonry except its secrecy; and its tone suggests that it was motivated by jealousy and greed rather than by anything else.

In fact, the Bull acknowledges that Freemasonry has “the appearance of natural probity”. In other words, by all accounts it appears to be an honourable institution. No impropriety has been observed in it to make it suspect. The only cause for suspicion, according to the Bull, is its secrecy. And on the basis of that alone the Pope is willing to call it “depraved and perverted” and “evil”. That is not the kind of judgment one would expect from a respectable institution such as the Catholic Church claims to be.

zerinus
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There is no requirement whatsoever for the Church (for any Papal Bull) to state lists of “reasons” for its decisions. The Church bans membership in secret societies. That’s not news nor is it surprising. It might be a bit hard for an LDS to grasp that, given the secret practices of LDS.
 
I do not think that its very nice to come to a Catholic web site and talk down about our faith. I could do the same with LDS. So lets play nice huh?
 
catharina said:
There is no requirement whatsoever for the Church (for any Papal Bull) to state lists of “reasons” for its decisions. The Church bans membership in secret societies. That’s not news nor is it surprising. It might be a bit hard for an LDS to grasp that, given the secret practices of LDS.
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The problem with that is that that is not what it does. It gives a list of reasons. If the Bull had merely stated that it is a policy of the Catholic Church to ban membership in all secret organizations, and therefore Freemasonry is included, nobody could have found any fault with that, including the Freemasons. If that is all that the Catholic Church had said, no hostility between Freemasonry and Catholicism would have arisen. But when they come out in fighting talk, and call it “depraved and perverted” and “evil,” then the Freemasons have the right to object, as well as every other fair-minded individual.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
The problem with that is that that is not what it does. It gives a list of reasons. If the Bull had merely stated that it is a policy of the Catholic Church to ban membership in all secret organizations, and therefore Freemasonry is included, nobody could have found any fault with that, including the Freemasons. If that is all that the Catholic Church had said, no hostility between Freemasonry and Catholicism would have arisen. But when they come out in fighting talk, and call it “depraved and perverted” and “evil,” then the Freemasons have the right to object, as well as every other fair-minded individual.

zerinus
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That the Church stated reflections of the climate of the times in regard to masonry is not troubling to me. If you can find any truly honest mason, he’ll admit that masonry was founded to decimate the Catholic Church. Good luck with that search though; secrecy prevails!
 
Don’t be too hard on zerinus. He is usually either nice or he puts the other person on ignore.

Even if you do not agree on his religious ideas, or his position on any one argument, he tends to be logical and rarely goes against what he beleives. Oh, and stubborn as a mule…😛
 
catharina said:
That the Church stated reflections of the climate of the times in regard to masonry is not troubling to me. If you can find any truly honest mason, he’ll admit that masonry was founded to decimate the Catholic Church. Good luck with that search though; secrecy prevails!
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All the Freemasons I have ever met have been honest, decent, honorable, respectable, charitable individuals—some of the exceptionally so. That is why I am willing to defend them against the falsehoods and slanderous accusations of the Catholics.

zerinus
 
ralphinal said:
Don’t be too hard on zerinus. He is usually either nice or he puts the other person on ignore.

Even if you do not agree on his religious ideas, or his position on any one argument, he tends to be logical and rarely goes against what he beleives. Oh, and stubborn as a mule…😛
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Thank you Ralph. I take that as a complement! 😃

zerinus
 
Wow!

I’ve missed you guys. :tiphat:

How is everybody? 👋

I was out of commission for the last week.

I’ve got some post reading to catch up on. :coffeeread:
 
catharina said:
If you can find any truly honest mason, he’ll admit that masonry was founded to decimate the Catholic Church.
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Catharina,

Hope this message finds you doing well.

I really don’t believe the above statement is true–just being honest. The masons have been around for a long time and were the ones who built many of the great cathedrals and castles of Europe. They were in no way out to decimate the Church. This system of masonry (operative masonry) evolved into what we have today (speculative masonry). Freemasonry most likely gets its name from the free stone masons that produced many of the elaborate works in those great cathedrals and castles of Europe. The Freemasons, while maybe not initially being a part of the Church, were not against the Church.

A friend of mine from Israel told me that there were compass and squares on many of the Knights Templar tombs located in the close to the town he grew in. I have asked for photos (he’s in Israel right now) and he told me that he would bring some. I know that the masons quite often were employed by the Knights Templar in the construction of castles and churchs. If his claim is true, I will post them on my website.

Sincerely,
 
zerinus said:
All the Freemasons I have ever met have been honest, decent, honorable, respectable, charitable individuals—some of the exceptionally so. That is why I am willing to defend them against the falsehoods and slanderous accusations of the Catholics.

zerinus
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Soooo … on the other hand … ? All the Catholics you have ever met have been honest, decent, honorable, respectable, charitable individuals—some of the exceptionally so? Do you know any Catholics? Like get together for supper or go to a Litlle League game together - or socialize together any where, any time? Oh and - hope it’s not secret - do you know any LDS-masons?
 
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