F
Flos_Campi
Guest
What is the history of Freemasonry in the Vatican and does it still exist.
I understand that Lodges were or still remain in the Vatican.
I understand that Lodges were or still remain in the Vatican.
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T
Tietjen
Guest
I seriously doubt this as Catholics may not be masons.
R
ralphinal
Guest
Rome might have some. Catholics cannot be Masons, so I doubt there is much demand in the Vatican. As small as the Vatican is, there isn’t a lot of space for one, either.
C
catharina
Guest
In the past three weeks, five threads have been initiated regarding the Church and masonry. Membership in the masons is forbidden to all Catholics under all circumstances. I have to ask myself, why the sudden interest? The question becomes more pertinent when one realizes that most of the posters are brand-new to the CA site. Some are Catholics who claim to be masons.
Nevertheless, I’ll re-post here what I’ve already posted in a number of the other threads.
(The Church has taken this stance for nearly 300 years. It is unlikely to change it.)
"IN EMINENTI
ON FREEMASONRY
PAPAL BULL OF POPE CLEMENT XII
April 28, 1738
CLEMENT, BISHOP, Servant of the Servants of God to all the faithful, Salutation, and Apostolic Benediction.
Since the divine clemency has placed Us, Whose merits are not equal to the task, in the high watch-tower of the Apostolate with the duty of pastoral care confided to Us, We have turned Our attention, as far as it has been granted Us from on high, with unceasing care to those things through which the integrity of Orthodox Religion is kept from errors and vices by preventing their entry, and by which the dangers of disturbance in the most troubled times are repelled from the whole Catholic World.
Now it has come to Our ears, and common gossip has made clear, that certain Societies, Companies, Assemblies, Meetings, Congregations or Conventicles called in the popular tongue Liberi Muratori or Francs Massons or by other names according to the various languages, are spreading far and wide and daily growing in strength; and men of any Religion or sect, satisfied with the appearance of natural probity, are joined together, according to their laws and the statutes laid down for them, by a strict and unbreakable bond which obliges them, both by an oath upon the Holy Bible and by a host of grievous punishment, to an inviolable silence about all that they do in secret together. But it is in the nature of crime to betray itself and to show itself by its attendant clamor. Thus these aforesaid Societies or Conventicles have caused in the minds of the faithful the greatest suspicion, and all prudent and upright men have passed the same judgment on them as being depraved and perverted. For if they were not doing evil they would not have so great a hatred of the light. Indeed, this rumor has grown to such proportions that in several countries these societies have been forbidden by the civil authorities as being against the public security, and for some time past have appeared to be prudently eliminated.
Therefore, bearing in mind the great harm which is often caused by such Societies or Conventicles not only to the peace of the temporal state but also to the well-being of souls, and realizing that they do not hold by either civil or canonical sanctions; and since We are taught by the divine word that it is the part of faithful servant and of the master of the Lord’s household to watch day and night lest such men as these break into the household like thieves, and like foxes seek to destroy the vineyard; in fact, to prevent the hearts of the simple being perverted, and the innocent secretly wounded by their arrows, and to block that broad road which could be opened to the uncorrected commission of sin and for the other just and reasonable motives known to Us; We therefore, having taken counsel of some of Our Venerable Brothers among the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, and also of Our own accord and with certain knowledge and mature deliberations, with the plenitude of the Apostolic power do hereby determine and have decreed that these same Societies, Companies, Assemblies, Meetings, Congregations, or Conventicles of Liberi Muratori or Francs Massons, or whatever other name they may go by, are to be condemned and prohibited, and by Our present Constitution, valid for ever, We do condemn and prohibit them.
Wherefore We command most strictly and in virtue of holy obedience, all the faithful of whatever state, grade, condition, order, dignity or pre-eminence, whether clerical or lay, secular or regular, even those who are entitled to specific and individual mention, that none, under any pretext or for any reason, shall dare or presume to enter, propagate or support these aforesaid societies of Liberi Muratori or Francs Massons, or however else they are called, or to receive them in their houses or dwellings or to hide them, be enrolled among them, joined to them, be present with them, give power or permission for them to meet elsewhere, to help them in any way, to give them in any way advice, encouragement or support either openly or in secret, directly or indirectly, on their own or through others; nor are they to urge others or tell them, incite or persuade them to be enrolled in such societies or to be counted among their number, or to be present or to assist them in any way; but they must stay completely clear of such Societies, Companies, Assemblies, Meetings, Congregations or Conventicles, under pain of excommunication for all the above mentioned people, which is incurred by the very deed without any declaration being required, and from which no one can obtain the benefit of absolution, other than at the hour of death, except through Ourselves or the Roman Pontiff of the time.
Moreover, We desire and command that both Bishops and prelates, and other local ordinaries, as well as inquisitors for heresy, shall investigate and proceed against transgressors of whatever state, grade, condition, order dignity or pre-eminence they may be; and they are to pursue and punish them with condign penalties as being most suspect of heresy. To each and all of these We give and grant the free faculty of calling upon the aid of the secular arm, should the need arise, for investigating and proceeding against those same transgressors and for pursuing and punishing them with condign penalties.
Given at Rome, at Saint Mary Mayor, in the year 1738 of Our Lord."
Nevertheless, I’ll re-post here what I’ve already posted in a number of the other threads.
(The Church has taken this stance for nearly 300 years. It is unlikely to change it.)
"IN EMINENTI
ON FREEMASONRY
PAPAL BULL OF POPE CLEMENT XII
April 28, 1738
CLEMENT, BISHOP, Servant of the Servants of God to all the faithful, Salutation, and Apostolic Benediction.
Since the divine clemency has placed Us, Whose merits are not equal to the task, in the high watch-tower of the Apostolate with the duty of pastoral care confided to Us, We have turned Our attention, as far as it has been granted Us from on high, with unceasing care to those things through which the integrity of Orthodox Religion is kept from errors and vices by preventing their entry, and by which the dangers of disturbance in the most troubled times are repelled from the whole Catholic World.
Now it has come to Our ears, and common gossip has made clear, that certain Societies, Companies, Assemblies, Meetings, Congregations or Conventicles called in the popular tongue Liberi Muratori or Francs Massons or by other names according to the various languages, are spreading far and wide and daily growing in strength; and men of any Religion or sect, satisfied with the appearance of natural probity, are joined together, according to their laws and the statutes laid down for them, by a strict and unbreakable bond which obliges them, both by an oath upon the Holy Bible and by a host of grievous punishment, to an inviolable silence about all that they do in secret together. But it is in the nature of crime to betray itself and to show itself by its attendant clamor. Thus these aforesaid Societies or Conventicles have caused in the minds of the faithful the greatest suspicion, and all prudent and upright men have passed the same judgment on them as being depraved and perverted. For if they were not doing evil they would not have so great a hatred of the light. Indeed, this rumor has grown to such proportions that in several countries these societies have been forbidden by the civil authorities as being against the public security, and for some time past have appeared to be prudently eliminated.
Therefore, bearing in mind the great harm which is often caused by such Societies or Conventicles not only to the peace of the temporal state but also to the well-being of souls, and realizing that they do not hold by either civil or canonical sanctions; and since We are taught by the divine word that it is the part of faithful servant and of the master of the Lord’s household to watch day and night lest such men as these break into the household like thieves, and like foxes seek to destroy the vineyard; in fact, to prevent the hearts of the simple being perverted, and the innocent secretly wounded by their arrows, and to block that broad road which could be opened to the uncorrected commission of sin and for the other just and reasonable motives known to Us; We therefore, having taken counsel of some of Our Venerable Brothers among the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, and also of Our own accord and with certain knowledge and mature deliberations, with the plenitude of the Apostolic power do hereby determine and have decreed that these same Societies, Companies, Assemblies, Meetings, Congregations, or Conventicles of Liberi Muratori or Francs Massons, or whatever other name they may go by, are to be condemned and prohibited, and by Our present Constitution, valid for ever, We do condemn and prohibit them.
Wherefore We command most strictly and in virtue of holy obedience, all the faithful of whatever state, grade, condition, order, dignity or pre-eminence, whether clerical or lay, secular or regular, even those who are entitled to specific and individual mention, that none, under any pretext or for any reason, shall dare or presume to enter, propagate or support these aforesaid societies of Liberi Muratori or Francs Massons, or however else they are called, or to receive them in their houses or dwellings or to hide them, be enrolled among them, joined to them, be present with them, give power or permission for them to meet elsewhere, to help them in any way, to give them in any way advice, encouragement or support either openly or in secret, directly or indirectly, on their own or through others; nor are they to urge others or tell them, incite or persuade them to be enrolled in such societies or to be counted among their number, or to be present or to assist them in any way; but they must stay completely clear of such Societies, Companies, Assemblies, Meetings, Congregations or Conventicles, under pain of excommunication for all the above mentioned people, which is incurred by the very deed without any declaration being required, and from which no one can obtain the benefit of absolution, other than at the hour of death, except through Ourselves or the Roman Pontiff of the time.
Moreover, We desire and command that both Bishops and prelates, and other local ordinaries, as well as inquisitors for heresy, shall investigate and proceed against transgressors of whatever state, grade, condition, order dignity or pre-eminence they may be; and they are to pursue and punish them with condign penalties as being most suspect of heresy. To each and all of these We give and grant the free faculty of calling upon the aid of the secular arm, should the need arise, for investigating and proceeding against those same transgressors and for pursuing and punishing them with condign penalties.
Given at Rome, at Saint Mary Mayor, in the year 1738 of Our Lord."
C
catharina
Guest
flos campi -
here are some links to other current threads on masonry.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=239040
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3683506#post3683506post3683506
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=234642
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=238017
here are some links to other current threads on masonry.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=239040
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3683506#post3683506post3683506
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=234642
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=238017
R
ralphinal
Guest
Either they are trying to find new members or there is something going on in the pop culture that has people looking at it.
C
catharina
Guest
Or maybe both?
R
ralphinal
Guest
Probably both. I know that they were on the history Channel a bunch over the last year or so. They even allowed the Ritual to be filmed.
L
Lilyflower
Guest
That is a contradiction. There is no evidence of ‘lodges in the Vatican’, unless you consider the College of Cardinals to be a lodge!.
This thread has to be a ruse!
Blessings and peace
R
rpp
Guest
Even a Freemasonry web site says Catholic cannot be Freemasons.
io.com/~janebm/churchlaw.html
However, they do try to use the writings of post-Vatican II dissidents to convince people that it was okay.
They also try to argue that the new Code of Canon Law does not prescribe a penalty, therefore it must be okay.
I am not buying it.
io.com/~janebm/churchlaw.html
However, they do try to use the writings of post-Vatican II dissidents to convince people that it was okay.
They also try to argue that the new Code of Canon Law does not prescribe a penalty, therefore it must be okay.
I am not buying it.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
It is sad to see how the devil is working to make sin ‘glamorous’ and most appealing to those trying to be faithful Catholics.
First, he makes the freemasons look ‘good’. They do good deeds, they are so ‘tolerant’, society loves them.
Next, he makes the Christians look ‘bad’. Individual Christians who do evil are trotted out as ‘the norm.’ Or Christians are made to look stingy, intolerant, outright ‘hateful’. Society hates them.
Finally, he puts the two side by side, knowing the freemasons ‘look good’ but their goals are completely antiChristian in the long run while their ‘doings’ look, to society’s ‘human’ standard, ‘loving and good’, while the Catholic Christians, whose goals are long term, are ‘divine’ and therefore not in sync with the twisted and ephemeral human standards, and whose doings look, by ‘human terms’ to be intolerant and hateful, and he says, “The Church SAYS you cannot join these fine upstanding folks. So what? What do YOU say? Can’t you ‘think for yourself’? What kind of God/Church do you believe in–a ‘reasonable’ one or not?”
And these poor, blinded, loving souls are convinced that black is white, that they really ‘can’ choose AGAINST the Church and be RIGHT. . .
And the devil is laughing his way back to hell, “Suckers born every minute. . . and they THANKED me for letting themselves choose damnation!”
First, he makes the freemasons look ‘good’. They do good deeds, they are so ‘tolerant’, society loves them.
Next, he makes the Christians look ‘bad’. Individual Christians who do evil are trotted out as ‘the norm.’ Or Christians are made to look stingy, intolerant, outright ‘hateful’. Society hates them.
Finally, he puts the two side by side, knowing the freemasons ‘look good’ but their goals are completely antiChristian in the long run while their ‘doings’ look, to society’s ‘human’ standard, ‘loving and good’, while the Catholic Christians, whose goals are long term, are ‘divine’ and therefore not in sync with the twisted and ephemeral human standards, and whose doings look, by ‘human terms’ to be intolerant and hateful, and he says, “The Church SAYS you cannot join these fine upstanding folks. So what? What do YOU say? Can’t you ‘think for yourself’? What kind of God/Church do you believe in–a ‘reasonable’ one or not?”
And these poor, blinded, loving souls are convinced that black is white, that they really ‘can’ choose AGAINST the Church and be RIGHT. . .
And the devil is laughing his way back to hell, “Suckers born every minute. . . and they THANKED me for letting themselves choose damnation!”
P
ProVobis
Guest
Can a Catholic vote for an admitted Freemason?
B
blossom02
Guest
I can’t agree more!!!
R
ralphinal
Guest
As I sit here, I must make a confession to all of you. IN my home state of Alabama, we have a history of bad, no, horrible political leadership. Very, very bad. 50 years ago, Birmingham was the largest city in the Southeast. We passed on Ford, Boing, Delta, Budwiser, and other industries. We choose to put all of our eggs in the basket of US Steel. They closed, Atlanta took most of these companies, and now we are small and they are a major player. Not to mention all of the Civil Rights issues that we had, both locally and state-wide. Since we became a state, we have been governed by morons, goof-balls, bigots, and other assorted ne’er-do-wells. They have all had one thing in common: they were almost all FreeMasons.
Perhaps that is part of my issue. When George Wallace stood in the steps to proclaim segregation, he was a Mason. When Bull Connor attacked black children with dogs and hoses, he was a Mason. When the 16th Street Baptist Church was blown up, the suspects were Masons. The idiots who crippled Birmingham over the last 110 years were almost all MAsons (the white ones, anyway). In Alabama, a good number of Masons are in the KKK. I am not sure about the years 1819-1900, but I bet it is not much different.
I guess that I have issues partially because of what my Church says and partially because I have seen almost none of the positive Masonic influence in my state.
I am sorry if my bias is affecting my ability to discuss it. I just thought I should say something.
Perhaps that is part of my issue. When George Wallace stood in the steps to proclaim segregation, he was a Mason. When Bull Connor attacked black children with dogs and hoses, he was a Mason. When the 16th Street Baptist Church was blown up, the suspects were Masons. The idiots who crippled Birmingham over the last 110 years were almost all MAsons (the white ones, anyway). In Alabama, a good number of Masons are in the KKK. I am not sure about the years 1819-1900, but I bet it is not much different.
I guess that I have issues partially because of what my Church says and partially because I have seen almost none of the positive Masonic influence in my state.
I am sorry if my bias is affecting my ability to discuss it. I just thought I should say something.
L
Lilyflower
Guest
Please publish your references for these claims
L
Lilyflower
Guest
Tantum Ergo posted:
Unless you have been in a lodge and seen for yourself what it is all about from the inside then I am afraid your critque is at best second-hand information and at worst anti-Catholic in being discriminate and bigoted.
Freemasonry is no more anti-Chistian than golf football or baseball! I wonder how often sportsmen stop to pray before, during and after a game? 
Our local football team is run and owned by a good practicing English Catholic woman of international reputation. She is a daily Mass attender and rekown for her spirituality. She is also lesser known for her great charitable works and support of the Church. The local Church is much richer for her presence. But even she does not have a picture depicting Christ and His acention into Heaven in the main foyer of the football club.
Blessings and peace
I have no problems with the Church saying Catholics may not be Freemasons but I DO worry about some of the outlandish prejudicial and discriminatory claims about freemasonry.
Unless you have been in a lodge and seen for yourself what it is all about from the inside then I am afraid your critque is at best second-hand information and at worst anti-Catholic in being discriminate and bigoted.
Freemasonry is no more anti-Chistian than golf football or baseball!
I wonder how often sportsmen stop to pray before, during and after a game? Our local football team is run and owned by a good practicing English Catholic woman of international reputation. She is a daily Mass attender and rekown for her spirituality. She is also lesser known for her great charitable works and support of the Church. The local Church is much richer for her presence. But even she does not have a picture depicting Christ and His acention into Heaven in the main foyer of the football club.
Blessings and peace
C
catharina
Guest
I’m unfamiliar with this religion. What is it?Tantum Ergo posted:
I have no problems with the Church saying Catholics may not be Freemasons but I DO worry about some of the outlandish prejudicial and discriminatory claims about freemasonry.
Unless you have been in a lodge and seen for yourself what it is all about from the inside then I am afraid your critque is at best second-hand information and at worst anti-Catholic in being discriminate and bigoted.
Freemasonry is no more anti-Chistian than golf football or baseball!
Our local football team is run and owned by a good practicing English Catholic woman of international reputation. She is a daily Mass attender and rekown for her spirituality. She is also lesser known for her great charitable works and support of the Church. The local Church is much richer for her presence. But even she does not have a picture depicting Christ and His acention into Heaven in the main foyer of the football club.
Blessings and peace
Perhaps you meant to say something else?
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