Freemasons

[thistle]

I find the above quite frighening. Yes it really scares me. I just cannot believe the author is serious

I suppose it is a sad fact of life that we always tend to burn witches. Nothing much ever changes. Heaven help us if we were ever to be visited by aliens. One thing is certain, if we could, they would never return to their mother planet nor live to tell the tale.

Small wonder the Lord intends to come back with a host of Angels. Who can blame Him, if you were He, would you seriously contemplate coming back ‘unaccompanied’?

Did you show your friend ALL the documentary evidence we provided you in earlier posts? What did he say?

Have you yourself read all of them?

Do you now accept the Church’s teaching which Catholics MUST accept that a Catholic cannot become a Freemason and if they do they have committed a grave sin?

 

[Sixtus]

ne of those names is the KKK, which was nearly all militant freemasons… their main enemy was Catholicism…

It begs the question 'how many Catholics are in the KKK?

Of course, you will say ‘None’. I repeat the question: how many practising Catholics are in the KKK?

 

[Sixtus]

Did you show your friend all the documentary evidence we provided in earlier posts?

I told my friends what you said. I also qualified it with the facts that:

I am not always happy with the EWN site, since it seems so condemnatory and selective in its choice and interpretation of Catholic Sources. It is a repository of hard catholic traditionalism, and I do not know with what authority the “experts” speak.

He said ‘that was what he suspected’. He asked his PP who advised him to keep away from Extremists regardless of their denomination or pursuasion

 

[thistle]

I told my friends what you said. I also qualified it with the facts that:

I am not always happy with the EWN site, since it seems so condemnatory and selective in its choice and interpretation of Catholic Sources. It is a repository of hard catholic traditionalism, and I do not know with what authority the “experts” speak.

He said ‘that was what he suspected’. He asked his PP who advised him to keep away from Extremists regardless of their denomination or pursuasion

I never gave you anything from EWN (I guess you mean EWTN).

I gave you Church documents which are from Pope Leo XIII, Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) and from the Code of Canon Law.
I would really be interested in your explanation of how these are extremist.
You know from these that it is a grave sin for a Catholic to become a Freemason.
You didn’t answer my question.
DO YOU ACCEPT THE CHURCH TEACHING THAT CATHOLICS CANNOT BE FREEMASONS OR THEY COMMIT A GRAVE SIN?
Yes or No??

 

[fix]

I told my friends what you said. I also qualified it with the facts that:

I am not always happy with the EWN site, since it seems so condemnatory and selective in its choice and interpretation of Catholic Sources. It is a repository of hard catholic traditionalism, and I do not know with what authority the “experts” speak.

He said ‘that was what he suspected’. He asked his PP who advised him to keep away from Extremists regardless of their denomination or pursuasion

I gave a cite with a link directly to the Vatican website. Perhaps your friend thinks the Vatican is extremist?

I find those who dismiss EWTN usually have a vary narrow understanding of Catholicism.

 

[Sixtus]

DO YOU ACCEPT THE CHURCH TEACHING THAT CATHOLICS CANNOT BE FREEMASONS OR THEY COMMIT A GRAVE SIN?
Yes or No??

I will answer your question by referring you to your question and the style with which it is written.

There, now you have your answer and you have it in full.

 

[Sixtus]

I find the SDA criticism of Catholicism disturbing. Not least how they allege that the Pope’s respective numbers add up to 666.

But I have to say that I also find the condemnatory attitude of Catholic extremists and fanatics even more scary.

Yes there is a need for ‘the letter of the law’ but isn’t that the very essence that the Lord condemned when He criticised the Pharasees and Sadducees?

Moral law emulates statutory law. There are those who advocate hanging flogging, electric chair, use of torture and other ‘hard’ punitive measures, and there are those who advocate a more humane compassionate approach.

In other words: ‘letting the love of the law become secondary to the law of love’!

I bet in your morality any married person who has sex with another married person is committing a grave sin of adultery.

Any person who willfully misses Mass on Sunday is equally culpable.

Is it any wonder ‘some’ are the scorn of Christianity. I regularly meet Protestants who ask me how Catholics can reconcile hardness with God’s tenderness, hardness with compassion, intollerance with diversity, I could go on.I simply reply ‘not ALL Catholics, only some of them’!

 

[thistle]

I will answer your question by referring you to your question and the style with which it is written.

There, now you have your answer and you have it in full.

Well you have repeatedly throughout the thread refused to answer the question and claimed that your friend and his local priest said it was not the Church teaching. That it is not Church teaching of course is totally untrue. Some priests tell people abortion and contraception are okay but they too are wrong because that is against Church teaching. The Church teachings are clearly documented and it is a mistake unfortunately to think that all priests pass on the correct teachings on everything.

At least if before your friend and you were genuinely ignorant about the Church’s teaching on Freemasonry you were not in sin, but neither of you can claim ignorance now.
Therefore it is vital that your friend ceases to be a Freemason immediately for the sake of his immortal soul. Knowing he is now in sin it is incumbent on you as a fellow Catholic to tell him this.

CCC 1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers.

 

[fix]

I find the SDA criticism of Catholicism disturbing. Not least how they allege that the Pope’s respective numbers add up to 666.

But I have to say that I also find the condemnatory attitude of Catholic extremists and fanatics even more scary.

Please define Catholic extremist.

Yes there is a need for ‘the letter of the law’ but isn’t that the very essence that the Lord condemned when He criticised the Pharasees and Sadducees?

Nope. Christ said of the Pharisees to do exactly as they tell you, but do not do as they do. They had authority, but they were hypocrites. That is vastly different from simply giving a wink and a nod to the directives of the Church because we think we are superior.

Moral law emulates statutory law. There are those who advocate hanging flogging, electric chair, use of torture and other ‘hard’ punitive measures, and there are those who advocate a more humane compassionate approach.

What is unjust about the directive regarding Masons? It is in place to protect folks spiritually. The Church was founded for the salvation of souls. Why is your position superior to Hers?

In other words: ‘letting the love of the law become secondary to the law of love’!

Those who follow the law do so because they love God. Submitting, cheerfully, to His law is submitting to His will. That is love. There is no conflict. The conflict comes when we are more conerned with frustrated wishes than with feeling guilty for disobeying.

I bet in your morality any married person who has sex with another married person is committing a grave sin of adultery.

Any person who willfully misses Mass on Sunday is equally culpable.

One who commits mortal sin is guilty of rejecting the entire moral law. Which moral laws are we allowed to violate and still claim fidelity to Christ?

Is it any wonder ‘some’ are the scorn of Christianity. I regularly meet Protestants who ask me how Catholics can reconcile hardness with God’s tenderness, hardness with compassion, intollerance with diversity, I could go on.I simply reply ‘not ALL Catholics, only some of them’!

That is why I think Protestantism can lead to a type of moral relativism. The final authroity is each of us thus making each a little god.

 

[TheRaiders]

IMHO…IMHO…I find it difficult to believe that the Catholic Church could be underminded by the freemasons. Again, my opinion.

That’s because you don’t know how powerfull they have been historically worldwide. They have started revolutions, and had a huge influence on history. I’m not talking conspiracy theories here, I’m talking pretty out in the open stuff. But, since they are a secret society, everyone automatically downplays them every time someone brings up their name. Its not that we think your average lodge is plotting against the church night and day. But history is influenced by certain things:

1. Philosophy, and religion (Masonry, is incompatable with Christianity on these two subjects)
2. Powerfull people in powerfull places: Historically, they have worked against the Church (against Protestants too) when they have power.

 

[Sixtus]

inally Posted by Julianna
IMHO…IMHO…I find it difficult to believe that the Catholic Church could be underminded by the freemasons. Again, my opinion.

I think you have got to the very heart and essence of the problem. We know for example that communist Russia tried to infiltrate the Vatican and that thousands of agents became priests, some progressing no further but others became Cardinals and were able to influence Vatican 2.

In that sense the anti-Christ HAS inflitrated the Catholic Church. But we have to take the Lord at His word that ‘the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church’!

If a major ideology backed by a powerful Nation failed, what chance has simple folk aligned to a significantly smaller organisation such as freemasonry got!

That’s because you don’t know how powerfull they have been historically worldwide. They have started revolutions, and had a huge influence on history.
.

Have they? I think this is an illustration of simple bigotry against things we do not understand.

1. Powerfull people in powerfull places:

Who? I am not aware that your average also ran freemason or even a whole lodge, is powerful.

I guess any organisation where there is power there is potential for power abuse. Who was it who said 'power corrupts, absolute power absolutely corrupts?

I do not think that individual lifestyle choices has anything to do with anyone except the individual providing what they are doing is not illegal and does not hurt anyone.

My brother is a freemasn and he is a really nice chap.

I am a Catenian. We have BOTH been criticised in that we BOTH belong to organisations whose membership is not open except by invitation. That is a criticism of a priest.

So, as a Catenian, I am on a power with freemasonry. I am privildged.

 

[Sixtus]

But, since they are a secret society,

The Catenians are criticised for being a ‘secret’ society.

Of course, just because we do not share with everyone else what we do, discuss etc etc, I do not agree that we are secret.

Mother Church approves of us. We are just professionals who meet in a Christian setting. There are lots of priests who are also Catenians. Frankly that is why I am not interested in freemasonry, the Catenians are every bit as good as and some! The fraturnity is a fantastic place with whom to meet and have Catholic social intercourse.

Were I not a Catenian, then I might well be interested in freemasonry. But seeings I have no intention of leaving the Catenians, that is not an option I am prepared to consider

 

[thistle]

The Catenians are criticised for being a ‘secret’ society.

Of course, just because we do not share with everyone else what we do, discuss etc etc, I do not agree that we are secret.

Mother Church approves of us. We are just professionals who meet in a Christian setting. There are lots of priests who are also Catenians. Frankly that is why I am not interested in freemasonry, the Catenians are every bit as good as and some! The fraturnity is a fantastic place with whom to meet and have Catholic social intercourse.

Were I not a Catenian, then I might well be interested in freemasonry. But seeings I have no intention of leaving the Catenians, that is not an option I am prepared to consider

Were you not whatever you would NOT have the option to become a Freemason. If you did that your sin would not only be grave but would be mortal because you know the Church teaching on this.

 

[Julianna]

Sixtus…sometimes, as in this case. It is better to be quiet and thought wise. You will be dogged at every turn. [SIGN]Shh![/SIGN]

 

[TheRaiders]

I think you have got to the very heart and essence of the problem. We know for example that communist Russia tried to infiltrate the Vatican and that thousands of agents became priests, some progressing no further but others became Cardinals and were able to influence Vatican 2.

In that sense the anti-Christ HAS inflitrated the Catholic Church. But we have to take the Lord at His word that ‘the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church’!

If a major ideology backed by a powerful Nation failed, what chance has simple folk aligned to a significantly smaller organisation such as freemasonry got!..
I am a Catenian. We have BOTH been criticised in that we BOTH belong to organisations whose membership is not open except by invitation. That is a criticism of a priest.

So, as a Catenian, I am on a power with freemasonry. I am privildged.

I don’t have a huge problem with secret societies. I don’t have a problem with some of the stuff you are saying. They are a little cool. I, myself, belong to Legion of Mary, and last night when I told my uncle about it, his first reaction was of concern that it was a cult. It is far from it, and we aren’t even a secret society.
I only have a problem with secret societies that repeatedly prove to be opposed to Christ at their roots. The common Christian mason that you might run into knows very little about what he has joined. Also, Masonry is different depending on what Lodge you go to. Here in America, it is a mix of normal, mostly Protestant lodges that do good works, and ones that were hugely influenced by Albert Pike, and others who hated Christianity. In France and Itally, Masonic lodges have been vehemently anti-catholic.
I like your faith when you say the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. That does not mean, however, we have nothing to worry about. In making its decision in regards to Masonry, the Church has looked at the larger picture, not just saying as you suggest we are “all Masons are evil, and plotting against the Church”. The truth is much more subtle than that.

 

[TheRaiders]

Here is an example of one that follows the Albert Pike religion:
humboldt.com/~starc/
Click on A message from our sponsors. Every time you do, a different page of some kind of weird scripture comes up. Bizzare.
Again, here is the face they present to the world. If you search for their site, this is what you’ll get, and this is what is linked to the state Masonic page. Very clean cut, just like all the other ones you’ll see. All about service to mankind, and nothing about religion except vague references to a higher power.
calodges.org/no106/index1.html

 

[Sixtus]

nothing about religion except vague references to a higher power.

Now that is interesting seeings most critics and the ultra right have alleged repeatedly that freemasonry is a religion

My brother says that if it is, he has never been preached to and no where has he ever come accross any reference to relgious material except for the Opening hymn which is ‘Morning has broken’ [he belongs to a daytime lodge] and a closing hymn [can’t remember which one he said now], I understand they also sing the National Anthem and salute our most noble Queen at the end-which of course I hope all self-respecting catholics would approve of, seeings she is the head of this great Nation of ours.

 

[thistle]

Now that is interesting seeings most critics and the ultra right have alleged repeatedly that freemasonry is a religion

My brother says that if it is, he has never been preached to and no where has he ever come accross any reference to relgious material except for the Opening hymn which is ‘Morning has broken’ [he belongs to a daytime lodge] and a closing hymn [can’t remember which one he said now], I understand they also sing the National Anthem and salute our most noble Queen at the end-which of course I hope all self-respecting catholics would approve of, seeings she is the head of this great Nation of ours.

I don’t understand the continuing debate. It does not matter what you or your brother think about the Freemasons.
The Church has spoken. A Catholic cannot be a Freemason otherwise he has committed a grave sin, and as you know this now it would be a mortal sin.
That is the Church teaching. You and your brother must accept it and shake off everything to do with the Freemasons otherwise your immortal souls are in danger.

 

[Sixtus]

nothing about religion except vague references to a higher power.

I am a recovering alcoholic. I have graced the doors of AA.

In meetings we have vague references to a ‘Higher Power’. This is whatever you conceive Him to be.

If you are moslem then He is Allah, if you are Christian then He is the Christian God of the Blessed Trinity.

If you are aethiest, then you will be lead to the Higher Power but One that is in accord with whatever your conception of HIm happens to be.

The Higher Power does not have to be the Christian God but that is the general aim, to introduce members to faith in God who is all powerful and through whom we get help and strength to overcome our weakness in respect of our illness.

It seems to me the freemasons conception of God as the Higher Power is on a par with AA’s Higher Power. Everyone accepts that AA’s reference to ‘the Higher Power’ is a noble attempt at helping members find God, so why is it that freemasonry’s Higher Power is blasphemous and offencive when it is the SAME Higher Power?

I suggest it is about fear of the unknown. Recovering alchololics are no threat. Freemason’s aren’t either but it appears they have power and anyone not certain of their faith, resilience of the Catholic Church may find ‘a power’ threatening.

It is interesting that Adolph Hitler feared the power of freemasonry as he thought they could over throw him, why he banned freemasonry. It still continued but anyone caught ‘in lodge’ were summarily executed. I am aware that the attempt to kill him was orchestrated by his Generals who were freemasons but that was them actiing not freemasonry. They used the vehicle of freemasonry because it was the only one where anonimity could be guarranteed. No one else could be trusted.

Freemasonry in Germany could see the holocaust and wanted to bring it to an end. Perhaps that too was evil, perhaps the ultra-right saw the holocaust as ‘part of God’s plan’. Had they succeeded, the war would have finished two years earlier saving tens of thousands of American, UK and coalition lives, not to mention even more civilians.

But there you are, that is the evil of those who move within freemasonry

 

[fix]

**IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

** 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.

I post this to show that the notion of autonomy of conscience is mostly misunderstood.