Because the gift of Free Will is what makes evil possible. Robots can’t themselves do evil since they have no free will. The only way to FORCE us not to sin is to take away our free will. God wants people who will love Him freely.but why can’t he just take away our sins? can’t he think of another way to wash our sins? afterall, he is omnipotent, right? if everything is all his plan, then he surely knows that we will sin…so why not eradicate evil at the very start?
you are correct…he was only showing off.No. Those were the means by which He manifested His power and obtained the release of the Hebrews from Egyptian slavery. He wasn’t trying to force their worship and love.
you are correct…he was only showing off.QUOTE]
And you claim to be a Catholic??!!
I will recommend the same article on the Catholic teaching re predestination as I recommended in an earlier post. It will be of help to you if you decide you want to believe as a Catholic.
bringyou.to/apologetics/a83.htm
i’m only catholic by name. there aren’t that much choices when i registered.And you claim to be a Catholic??!!
I will recommend the same article on the Catholic teaching re predestination as I recommended in an earlier post. It will be of help to you if you decide you want to believe as a Catholic.
bringyou.to/apologetics/a83.htm
Then if only “Catholic by name” the honest thing to do was to put in no answer; I’ve seen other profiles that have all sorts of things posted under “religion”. I think the article recommended will address issues of predestination and free will.i’m only catholic by name. there aren’t that much choices when i registered.
hmmnn…and i’ve noticed my original questions aren’t really answered
Freewill and predestination can and do coexist. Let’s take the choice of Mary at the Annunciation as an example. The angel Gabriel came to Mary and announced to her that she would bear the son of God. What was Mary’s response? “I am the hand-maiden of the Lord.” In other words, yes. Now, would God have asked Mary (via the angel) to bear His son if she wasn’t going to accept? I mean, God knew that she was going to accept (as God is omniscient), so that means she had no choice, right? It was already set in stone.you are correct…he was only showing off.
but this verse sounds like a command or threat
Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
freewill and predestination cannot coexist. it’s either we are only puppet in strings or we have freewill. but us having freewill refutes that god is omnipotent.
exactly! since he already knew what is going to happen, then he certainly knows that mary will not change her mind. thus, mary didn’t have freewill. for it was god’s will that she’s the mother of jesus.Now, would God have asked Mary (via the angel) to bear His son if she wasn’t going to accept?
Do you not see the non sequitur of this reasoning of yours? It doesn’t follow. Let’s say I’m filming a friend of mine, and I tell him to say yes or no: just choose one. He says yes. I then watch what I just filmed. I know he’s going to say yes, but does that mean he doesn’t now have a choice as to what he said? God sees the whole picture, so for him he has already seen the “film” (in fact, he made it). But in no way does this mean that we don’t have free will!exactly! since he already knew what is going to happen, then he certainly knows that mary will not change her mind. thus, mary didn’t have freewill.
Yes it was God’s will that Mary be the mother of Jesus, but in accordance with free will, Mary still had to accept this role in order for it to come to fruition. This is why Catholics revere Mary so much, calling her the “second woman” or the “new woman”, as Jesus is the “new Adam” (new man). Because she said yes!for it was god’s will that she’s the mother of jesus.
let’s put it this way:Do you not see the non sequitur of this reasoning of yours? It doesn’t follow. Let’s say I’m filming a friend of mine, and I tell him to say yes or no: just choose one. He says yes. I then watch what I just filmed. I know he’s going to say yes, but does that mean he doesn’t now have a choice as to what he said? God sees the whole picture, so for him he has already seen the “film” (in fact, he made it). But in no way does this mean that we don’t have free will!
edit: Actually, I should be more precise. Number 7 is correct, but number 8 does not follow. Number 5 is certainly wrong, as it actually violates the omniscience of God. It is possible that you will do ~A, but God still knows that you will choose to do A. Therefore number 7 is correct, but number 8 is not. Number 9 should read “Therefore, I will not do ~A” (a subtle but important difference).let’s put it this way:
- God’s knowledge cannot be wrong.
- God knows that I will do A.
- If I have free will, then (I can do A) and (I can do ~A).
- If I can do ~A, then it is possibly true that I will do ~A.
- If it is possibly true that I will do ~A, then God’s ‘knowledge’ that I will do A is possibly false.
- If God’s knowledge that I will do A is possibly false, then God’s
‘knowledge’ can be wrong.- Therefore, God’s knowledge that I will do A is not possibly false.
- Therefore, it is not possibly true that I will do ~A.
- Therefore, I cannot do ~A.
- Therefore, it is false that (I can do A) and (I can do ~A).
- Therefore, I don’t have free will.
if you read carefullyNumber 5 is a false premise, and actually undermines the omnipotence of God.
this condition was given if we say god = omnipotent thus refuting #5 and #6
- Therefore, God’s knowledge that I will do A is not possibly false.
Sorry, I actually edited my last post after seeing that I was mistaken.if you read carefully
this condition was given if we say god = omnipotent thus refuting #5 and #6
if we believe in predestination and god is omnipotent, then there’s no way we can have freewill.
if we believe in freewill, then we can say that god is not perfect and he too can make mistakes.
i’ve read it and i have the same explanation.Sorry, I actually edited my last post after seeing that I was mistaken.
OK. But I think the argument is flawed. I will now attempt to provide an alternate argument:i’ve read it and i have the same explanation.
i’m not saying i’m correct but i am only presenting an argument why god’s omnipotency, predestination and freewill can not exist together.
OK. But I think the argument is flawed. I will now attempt to provide an alternate argument:
*]Again, “Bill” can choose to do A or ~A.
*]As God is omniscient, God knows the choice Bill will make.
*]Bill does not know what choice he will make. Similarly, he is not in possession of the knowledge that God has of the choice Bill is about to make.
*]Bill chooses to do A, as God always knew he would.
*]Now if Bill had have chosen ~A, God would have always known that Bill was going to do this.
*]The free will of Bill is nowhere violated.
*]Therefore it is possible that Bill has free will.
Number 7 is very important, as this is not a proof of free will. Rather, it is an argument that demonstrates that it is possible to reconcile the omniscience of God with the free will of Bill.
What? He doesn’t know what choice he will make until he makes it, right? I can consider jumping off my chair right now, but I’m not really sure that I’m going to do it until I actually do it. God knows if I’ll do it or not, because He is omniscient.it’s almost believable except for #3. bill does not know what choice he will make? so then it is not free will.
Non sequitur. Besides which, everything isn’t already “scripted” in the sense that God has chosen and determined everything that happens. As Augustine said, God is the creator and ruler of everything, but of sin, the ruler only. God already knows what will happen throughout eternity, because he is omniscient. But he hasn’t set it in stone that I’m about to jump from my chair or not. There’s a difference between God knowing what will happen, and God determining what will happen. Free will assumes that God lets us make choices, therefore these choices are not determined by God, but they are still known by Him.the fact that everythin is scripted already violates our freewill.
There’s no double predestination, but predestination itself is a necessary consequence of God’s omniscience, and explicitly set out in the Bible. But the extent of this predestination is not explicitly set out in the Bible, and there is much discussion today - even within the Catholic Church herself - about the extent of predestination. This is a subject that I really don’t understand, and so the best I can do is to refer you to the Catholic Encyclopaedia article on the subject, which you can find here.but if we say we have freewill, then there’s no predestination.
Don’t worry about me, I am robust.i would love to present you another analogy that can have a lot of choices, not just A and ~A…
but then you might confuse yourself again.
if some of us are predestined to go to hell, and some of us are predestined to go to heaven…then sacrificin jesus was just all roleplayin.If God creates us all as individuals, with individual inclinations, proclivities and ways of experiencing the world which eventually manifest itself in adulthood…then he has created some people to reject him and others to love him.
If he creates a soul knowing what it will do, then he purposed the soul to do it, because the things that make us different from each other are the things created by him. So he has made some people to go to hell and others to choose him and go to heaven.
Thus God is a cruel egotist.
shudderIf God creates us all as individuals, with individual inclinations, proclivities and ways of experiencing the world which eventually manifest itself in adulthood…then he has created some people to reject him and others to love him.
If he creates a soul knowing what it will do, then he purposed the soul to do it, because the things that make us different from each other are the things created by him. So he has made some people to go to hell and others to choose him and go to heaven.
Thus God is a cruel egotist.
freewill itself is non sequitur.What? He doesn’t know what choice he will make until he makes it, right? I can consider jumping off my chair right now, but I’m not really sure that I’m going to do it until I actually do it. God knows if I’ll do it or not, because He is omniscient.