French Court Rules in Favor of De-baptism

[Tokyo_Pat]

“Some people in the included news story here have argued that baptism causes some actual change in the person.”

(Hi Seeker)

Yes–we believe that it changes a person very much. It is through baptism that we have communion with God; how we become children of God. Until baptism, humans are children of wrath ever doomed to live in separation from God and to suffer the other consequences of original sin.

“If that were the case, wouldn’t inflicting it on underaged children be prohibited?”

If what I wrote above were the case, would you ever consider not baptising an infant?

Getting innoculations and vaccines for children also causes changes in children. Should we not administer them?

Check out this passage from Acts 2

"38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

(I encourage you to go back and read chapters one and two of Acts to put this in context.) Peter exhorted those people to be baptised when they asked him what to do.

“If someone, who has had this ritual performed on them in infancy later wants nothing to do with said church, why would the church not grant their disenrollment?”

There’s nothing to be “disenrolled” from. I am a practicing Catholic. I have a local parish church that I attend. They know my address and I contribute money to them. They also maintain any records I may want maintained. If I didn’t tell them that information, noone in the Church would know it. This guy’s church sent him his records back. Is that what you mean by enrollment or disenrollment?

Can the seal (the mark) that baptism puts on a soul ever be erased? No. That’s what we believe because of what the Bible says and what Church Tradition says. That is a statement of belief though. If the person doesn’t believe in the Church, they must not believe in that seal’s existence. So what’s the big deal?

Do all Christians do this? Do Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc., all indoctrinate for life?

1. You would have to ask them. Each tradition has its own beliefs. I would say most believe in the permanence of baptism but some protestants do believe in re-baptism. We most definitely do not. We believe in the reality and permanence of baptism. Just like a physical birth can only happen once, spiritual birth happens only once.
2. I don’t think of it as indoctrination. I think of it as helping to save my child’s soul–and of fulfilling my duties as a Christian. Jesus said "Go out, make disciples of all the nations, baptising . . . " Jesus said a lot of things that don’t make sense. He’s God though and I’ll trust He knew what He was saying.

“I find the entire practice somewhat baffling. We don’t have such a ritual in my faith.”

“So, my question would be, if these people want to be de-baptized because they don’t believe in the Catholic, or Baptist, or whatever church, is the only reason a church won’t do this is because the person seeking severance might change his or her mind and later regret his de-baptism?”

Have you ever seen a tattoo removal that was completely, spotlessly done? If a crude piece of inked artwork could not be un-done, do you really believe that we could believe that God’s seal would be erased?

“If that is the case, can’t they just be baptized again?”

“What if the person gave up Catholicism for Islam? Would that person still be considered “one of the fold” even though he or she is practicing another, non-Christian faith?”

It’s a crude analogy but–Is Benedict Arnold considered a British patriot or an American traitor? It’s kind of like that.

"Peace,

Seeker"

Take care,

 

[TheAdvocate]

I think that the way the Church should handle this is to say that “we keep records of all happenings in the Catholic Church. That this man was baptized is a historical event. If he wishes to state that he wants nothing to do with the Church, we can produce a document that says so, and clip it to his baptismal record.”

 

[PioYapJr]

There are things that parents feel that are very good and important for their children. Examples of these are immunization and vitamins. For us Catholics, baptism is immeasurably good, can we begrudge us for ‘giving’ it to our children? As for making a law requiring parents to wait until the children have reached the age of reason before giving them baptism, we might as well require that children reach the age of reason before giving them vitamins.
What if it is proven later on that the immunization we administer to our children is bad after all? Well, it is done,and we can not do anything about it perhaps.
Does this analogy hold in the case of baptism? No. Because in case the individual losses his faith, he or she can just leave the Church! No Questions asked! And nothing physical will happen to him/her. We Catholic may feel sorry for him and even believes that he is endangering his salvation, But he/she has lost his faith so subjectively, the concern of the believers is moot and academic. This is like the case where some non-Catholic sects sincerely think that Catholics are going to hell. But we Catholics don’t think so. So we live on in peace.
The point is, if some of our decision with regards to our children’s physical benefit may turn out to have an irreversible damage -and the state cannot do anything about it for lack of foreknowledge, how can the state enforce or reverse something whose effect is not physical but spiritual? That’s absurd.

 

[onthisrock]

I’ve heard of another bizarre case like that, where a Jewish man wanted to become a non-Jew. Both cases sound counter-intuitive, to say the least. Aren’t you implicitly affirming the legitimacy of the “organization/system” you’re trying to leave for good? Whatever happened to doing what you fancy anyway? Or is this gentleman’s suit really an attempt to embarrass or harass the Church?

I completely agree with you. If he hates it, why engage to be “un-baptized” you can’t reverse what is done, at least that I can come up with at this hour. Can you un-rob someone? Well a successful appeal could set you free, but what you did was still done. Just keep turning away like he’s been doing. He is just a ham wanting attention. It’s so ridiculous and disrespectful to his parents souls. There’s hundreds of gay naked people walking around in San Fransisco,(legally) many I suspect were babptised…even they aren’t pulling this idiocy.(not yet!)

 

[Cleanthes]

A lot of people are baffled by the fact that he would formally request “de-baptism” if he doesn’t believe in its validity.

I think we need to look at the subtext. He is probably going to claim that since he didn’t “consent” to the baptism, his rights were violated by it or some such. This will set the legal gears turning so that the French government can outlaw infant baptisms or the teaching of religious catechesis in the future. This is not merely symbolic; it is setting the premises in place for a future attack on the Church by the state. What he wants is to set precedents so that the government can eventually outlaw religious education and the administration of the sacraments.

 

[AuroraB]

The Church doesn’t have a “debaptism” ceremony. If someone wants a “debaptism” ceremony then I guess they will just have to invent one for themselves. Or maybe the state could invent one. It seems like another example of the secular state telling the Church how to run it’s affairs. Is there no separation of Church and state in France?
No state can tell a Church which ceremonies to perform and which not, and especially to invent a new one. And if you are intent on leaving the Catholic Church why is it necessary to you for them to give their stamp of approval for doing it? Why would you care? I mean it’s not as if the Church forces you to pay a tax or show up for Confession on certain dates or chases after you to make your life miserable because you are not attending Church. The whole thing is ridiculous. Silly, silly, man. What a waste of everybody’s time.

 

[Young_Thinker]

What?! Some people are so crazy.

 

[anodos]

The Church doesn’t have a “debaptism” ceremony. If someone wants a “debaptism” ceremony then I guess they will just have to invent one for themselves. Or maybe the state could invent one. It seems like another example of the secular state telling the Church how to run it’s affairs. Is there no separation of Church and state in France?
No state can tell a Church which ceremonies to perform and which not, and especially to invent a new one. And if you are intent on leaving the Catholic Church why is it necessary to you for them to give their stamp of approval for doing it? Why would you care? I mean it’s not as if the Church forces you to pay a tax or show up for Confession on certain dates or chases after you to make your life miserable because you are not attending Church. The whole thing is ridiculous. Silly, silly, man. What a waste of everybody’s time.

I performed my own debaptism ceremony years ago when I became agnostic. I didn’t need anybody’s help and I thought I did a pretty decent job. (I did such a good job, in fact, that I was very surprised that I didn’t need rebaptized to become Catholic.)
Of course, my situation was a little different. I knew baptism was a one-time thing, but I didn’t know anything about it being an “indelible sign”. Not sure how I would have felt about it if I’d become atheist or agnostic after being raised Catholic.

 

[hn160]

I performed my own debaptism ceremony years ago when I became agnostic. I didn’t need anybody’s help and I thought I did a pretty decent job. (I did such a good job, in fact, that I was very surprised that I didn’t need rebaptized to become Catholic.)
Of course, my situation was a little different. I knew baptism was a one-time thing, but I didn’t know anything about it being an “indelible sign”. Not sure how I would have felt about it if I’d become atheist or agnostic after being raised Catholic.

No one can undo what God has done when water is applied with the Word of God. There is no way to remove the Word of God.

 

[JohnB24]

Comment above: "No one can undo what God has done when water is applied with the Word of God. There is no way to remove the Word of God."

Well that’s an opinion - and I don’t share it.

I was baptised a catholic, by a priest actually, not by a god (“what god has done” above)
I had no say or understanding or choice concerning it whatsoever.
I agree with Richard Dawkins that the Catholic Church (CC) is the second most wicked of the world’s many religions - and remember that: Catholicism is one of many religions all of which have (and had) their “faithful” followers and absurd (usually mutually exclusive) dogmas and doctrines.

The CC retains the numbers on their baptism lists to point out from time to time, for their own perceived benefit, the vast numbers of Catholics in their church. When the CC speaks they claim sometimes to be speaking for such large numbers and strive to obtain a greater governmental and social influence as a consequence. But they grossly overstate the numbers (as witnessed by falling mass etc attendances) because people can’t be bothered to seek some sort of “De-baptism” or official striking off of this claimed condition. Some catholics however increasingly try to do so.

Catholics follow their church’s dogmas because they are terrified by the threat of hell and eternal damnation if the Church’s instructions are not followed . This is a literally wicked doctrine and threat held over the heads of young children which many people find impossible to grow out of.
This wicked threat will one day be held to be child abuse, and the CC, anticipating this probability, has in recent years sought increasingly to “down-play” these teachings.

For God’s sake folks: “Grow Up!!!”

 

[dblake22]

French law says you’re allowed to leave any organization you want to leave. Great; so does U.S. law. As far as I know, that’s the law in every democratic country: if you want to quit an organization, you can.

That is not how the Church sees it. If you were to “leave” the Church, all that means from the point of view of the Church is that you have stopped participating. You are still a member and still subject to her laws. If you were to marry without Church authorization, as far as the Church is concerned, you are not married.

 

[AuroraB]

That’s very interesting. I had heard of Unitarians but never Unitarian Universalists. Does the Catholic Church consider UU Christians? I would think without acknowledging Baptism they wouldn’t probably don’t. Is this a completely different group or the same group with a slightly different name?

Never heard of UU’s but Unitarians aren’t Christian because they are unitarians. They don’t believe that Jesus is God.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Interesting thread. Having been exposed to the French legal system through my business experience, I can say that I am not at all surprised that this would be heard by a court there.

BTW - these are the joys and the workings of the socialist state. Day by day, we in the U.S. are getting closer …

And FWIW, this isn’t like joining the record of the month club, cancelling the subscription, and then wanting to be removed from the mailing list. As my teenage daughter would say, “c’mon!”.

God created us with free will. Whether you believe that or not, you are free to exercise it, baptized or unbaptized, and reject both God and Church if you so chose. An entry in a baptismal register does not change that fact.

That said, even if you manage to get your named removed from an earthly book, you are still in the eternal books, and Christ will open those at the Final Judgment. Perhaps an earthly victory may be had here, but the courts of France enjoy no competence or jurisdiction in the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[iloveangels]

Interesting thread. Having been exposed to the French legal system through my business experience, I can say that I am not at all surprised that this would be heard by a court there.

BTW - these are the joys and the workings of the socialist state. Day by day, we in the U.S. are getting closer …

And FWIW, this isn’t like joining the record of the month club, cancelling the subscription, and then wanting to be removed from the mailing list. As my teenage daughter would say, “c’mon!”.

God created us with free will. Whether you believe that or not, you are free to exercise it, baptized or unbaptized, and reject both God and Church if you so chose. An entry in a baptismal register does not change that fact.

That said, even if you manage to get your named removed from an earthly book, you are still in the eternal books, and Christ will open those at the Final Judgment. Perhaps an earthly victory may be had here, but the courts of France enjoy no competence or jurisdiction in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Leave it to the French to come up with true stupidity. At this level, it’s a real talent.