French Lord's Prayer to be changed

[Phemie]

lapresse.ca/international/europe/201310/15/01-4699856-la-traduction-francaise-du-notre-pere-catholique-retouchee.php

Before Vatican II and the permission for use of the vernacular, when French Catholics prayed the Lord’s Prayer they asked God “ne nous laissez pas succomber à la tentation” (do not let us give in to temptation) but with the 1966 Missal we started praying “ne nous soumets pas à la tentation” (do not submit us to temptation), a great change in meaning and a change from addressing God in the formal second person plural to the informal second person singular.

With the upcoming new French translation of the Liturgical Bible the text is to be changed to “ne nous laisse pas entrer en tentation” (do not let us enter into temptation). The new text still addresses God informally because children don’t normally address their father in formal speech, but less confusing than the impression that God is deliberately putting temptation in our way so we’ll fail and then need his mercy.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

Sounds good to me. When I read about this a week and a half or so ago (la-croix.com/Religion/Actualite/L-Eglise-valide-une-nouvelle-traduction-du-Notre-Pere-2013-10-15-1042839), I wasn’t thrilled about having to learn a new version but I can see the logic behind the change. Besides, it’s only one line :blushing:

According to La Croix this revision won’t go into effect for lectionaries until 2014 (though that’s just over two months away…my how time flies) and for missals until 2015.

 

[Phemie]

Sounds good to me. When I read about this a week and a half or so ago (la-croix.com/Religion/Actualite/L-Eglise-valide-une-nouvelle-traduction-du-Notre-Pere-2013-10-15-1042839), I wasn’t thrilled about having to learn a new version but I can see the logic behind the change. Besides, it’s only one line :blushing:

According to La Croix this revision won’t go into effect for lectionaries until 2014 (though that’s just over two months away…my how time flies) and for missals until 2015.

Yes, the French 2002 Roman Missal won’t be promulgated until at least 2015. The new liturgical Bible will be published next month and then it will be at least a year before we see new Lectionaries.

 

[SaintAugustine]

Sounds good to me. When I read about this a week and a half or so ago (la-croix.com/Religion/Actualite/L-Eglise-valide-une-nouvelle-traduction-du-Notre-Pere-2013-10-15-1042839), I wasn’t thrilled about having to learn a new version but I can see the logic behind the change. Besides, it’s only one line :blushing:

According to La Croix this revision won’t go into effect for lectionaries until 2014 (though that’s just over two months away…my how time flies) and for missals until 2015.

One line is easy. We had a whole bunch changed in our English translation - the Creed, the Gloria, the Sanctus, etc…

The French change is more like the transition I had to make from Protestantism - “forgive us our debts, as we have also forgiven our debtors” changes to “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” and learning to wait before the doxology. It took a year or so before I wouldn’t automatically want to go right into it…

 

[Phemie]

One line is easy. We had a whole bunch changed in our English translation - the Creed, the Gloria, the Sanctus, etc…

The French change is more like the transition I had to make from Protestantism - “forgive us our debts, as we have also forgiven our debtors” changes to “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” and learning to wait before the doxology. It took a year or so before I wouldn’t automatically want to go right into it…

We don’t know how drastically the new French translation of the Roman Missal will differ from the present one. Since Latin is more easily translated to French than to English, the translation we have now may have been much, much closer to the Latin original than the English one ever was.

 

[SaintAugustine]

We don’t know how drastically the new French translation of the Roman Missal will differ from the present one. Since Latin is more easily translated to French than to English, the translation we have now may have been much, much closer to the Latin original than the English one ever was.

Yes, I think the Romantic languages will have a lot fewer revisions. I guess we will have to wait and see. Whatever they are, people will probably blow them out of proportion. The English changes were a HUGE deal, and now? Not so much. People have learned them and Mass goes on.

 

[Phemie]

Yes, I think the Romantic languages will have a lot fewer revisions. I guess we will have to wait and see. Whatever they are, people will probably blow them out of proportion. The English changes were a HUGE deal, and now? Not so much. People have learned them and Mass goes on.

I still have a problem remembering the Apostles Creed – we’ve only used the Nicene once since the change in 2011. The Gloria, not so much since it’s close to the French one.

 

[SaintAugustine]

I still have a problem remembering the Apostles Creed – we’ve only used the Nicene once since the change in 2011. The Gloria, not so much since it’s close to the French one.

Fortunately, we tend to attend Latin OF Masses, so the common prayers are in Latin. At some the rest, including responses, are in English. At one of the parishes we attend, all but the readings, homily and prayers of the faithful are in Latin (though the responses are always in Latin).

When we do go to an English only Mass, we have to use the missal.

 

[ProVobis]

I still have a problem remembering the Apostles Creed – we’ve only used the Nicene once since the change in 2011. The Gloria, not so much since it’s close to the French one.

In the old handmissals, there are small differences in the Gloria so it’s quite possible the official English translation will be changed again. Maybe when the current copyrights expire.

 

[ProVobis]

lapresse.ca/international/europe/201310/15/01-4699856-la-traduction-francaise-du-notre-pere-catholique-retouchee.php

Before Vatican II and the permission for use of the vernacular, when French Catholics prayed the Lord’s Prayer they asked God “ne nous laissez pas succomber à la tentation” (do not let us give in to temptation) but with the 1966 Missal we started praying “ne nous soumets pas à la tentation” (do not submit us to temptation), a great change in meaning and a change from addressing God in the formal second person plural to the informal second person singular.

The English isn’t quite as literal to the Latin as it could be. The Anglophones, however, for whatever reason, were spared any retranslations of the Pater Noster into English.

 

[Phemie]

The English isn’t quite as literal to the Latin as it could be. The Anglophones, however, for whatever reason, were spared any retranslations of the Pater Noster into English.

Not for ICEL’s lack of trying as we can see from the CDWDS’s 2002 Observations on the English-language Translation of the Roman Missal which says, in part,

"The Congregation in the course of its various contacts and consultations has encountered widespread *indeed, virtually unanimous-opposition to the institution of any change in the wording of the Lord’s Prayer. More than one reader cited poignantly the experience of having seen this prayer coming to the lips of Christians who had otherwise appeared unconscious, its familiar wording having been learned by them from infancy. By contrast, the Mixed Commission’s justification for its changes, in its Third Progress Report on the Revision of the Roman Missal, seem inadequate and somewhat cerebral.

 

[ProVobis]

The French change is more like the transition I had to make from Protestantism - “forgive us our debts, as we have also forgiven our debtors” changes to “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” and learning to wait before the doxology. It took a year or so before I wouldn’t automatically want to go right into it…

Not for ICEL’s lack of trying as we can see from the CDWDS’s 2002 Observations on the English-language Translation of the Roman Missal which says, in part,

I believe the Church adopted either Cranmer’s or Henry VIII’s translation. One historian has called it “rather curious.”

If it were a literal translation it would be (and notice the subjunctives)

---

Pater noster, qui es in cælis,
Father our, Who are in Heaven(s),

sanctificetur nomen tuum:
may be sanctified name Your:

Adveniat regnum tuum:
May come reign Your:

Fiat voluntas tua sicut in cælo,
may be done will Your just as in heaven,

et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum
and on earth. Bread our daily

da nobis hodie:
give to us today:

Et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
And forgive us debts our,

sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris.
just as we forgive debtors our.

Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.
And you do not us lead into temptation.

Sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
But free us from evil. Amen.

 

[SaintAugustine]

I believe the Church adopted either Cranmer’s or Henry VIII’s translation. One historian has called it “rather curious.”

If it were a literal translation it would be (and notice the subjunctives)

---

Pater noster, qui es in cælis,
Father our, Who are in Heaven(s),

sanctificetur nomen tuum:
may be sanctified name Your:

Adveniat regnum tuum:
May come reign Your:

Fiat voluntas tua sicut in cælo,
may be done will Your just as in heaven,

et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum
and on earth. Bread our daily

da nobis hodie:
give to us today:

Et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
And forgive us debts our,

sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris.
just as we forgive debtors our.

Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.
And you do not us lead into temptation.

Sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
But free us from evil. Amen.

That’s interesting, ProVobis. I wonder if the Greek or Hebrew translate differently? Maybe the Latin use of degita/debitoribus is a poor translation. Jesus gave us the prayer directly, so it wouldn’t have been in Latin.

 

[ProVobis]

Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.
And you do not us lead into temptation.

Incidentally “inducas” is in the subjunctive, not a command as the English has it.

So it really should be “May you not lead us into temptalion.”

That’s interesting, ProVobis. I wonder if the Greek or Hebrew translate differently? Maybe the Latin use of degita/debitoribus is a poor translation. Jesus gave us the prayer directly, so it wouldn’t have been in Latin.

Fair point. Actually the original was in Aramaic and we have two different gospel accounts, and there have been some questionable translations from those as well. But if we’re going to use Latin, I would agree it’s better to use the cognate “debt” in translating “debita.” But then I wasn’t the official translator.

 

[SaintAugustine]

Incidentally “inducas” is in the subjunctive, not a command as the English has it.

So it really should be “May you not lead us into temptalion.”

Fair point. Actually the original was in Aramaic and we have two different gospel accounts, and there have been some questionable translations from those as well. But if we’re going to use Latin, I would agree it’s better to use the cognate “debt” in translating “debita.” But then I wasn’t the official translator.

But, you did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night?