Friday Abstinence Today?

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YoungTradCath said:
I shall do so anyways. I feel it necessary and expedient. And, given the FrDavid’s fantastic enlightenment, I feel even more supported in the matter.
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The conference of bishops does have the authority to regulate this. I can quote the canons (so can many others). [edited]

Friday remains a day of penance. Some form of penance is required on Fridays. A Catholic is free to substitute some other form of penance (entirely at the individual’s own discretion), or to keep the traditional no meat penance.
 
Bookcat said:
As I noted it is still a “day of penance” even if in a particular country any “obligation” has been removed. It is still remains a day special for penance. And we are to do penance as Christians. I just suggested above that “prayer” could be a well suited penance on this friday of the Octave (which another above has shone is not a solemnity…so is still a day of penance…) …such could involve more reading of Scripture prayerfully (lectio divina) …etc

As to the voluntary nature of the “fridays outside lent and Good Friday” in the USA I noted it can be a matter that various arguments could perhaps be made. Jimmy notes in one of his articles that the USA Canon Law Society does not seem to see it as an obligation here and I have seen such argued by another also in the past…

Also interestingly Jimmy notes (in terms of the Canon Law here (not other things necessarily…):

“Thus I don’t see how–however strong one’s desire may be to find an obligation in the law–one can responsibly conclude that on the matter of obligatory Friday penance the law is not at *least *doubtful, in which case the doubt of law canon kicks in and tells us that the faithful are not obliged.”
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A person cannot create a doubt with convoluted illogical arguments and then claim that there is doubt in the law. It doesn’t work that way.
 
FrDavid96 said:
The conference of bishops does have the authority to regulate this. I can quote the canons (so can many others). The thing to keep in mind is that the bishops did not say what someone in a web blog claims they said–that’s the point.

Friday remains a day of penance. Some form of penance is required on Fridays. A Catholic is free to substitute some other form of penance (entirely at the individual’s own discretion), or to keep the traditional no meat penance.
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I know, Fr. I agree with the substitution thing, as is written into the Canon. I also agree that some form of penance is required, also per the Canon. [edited] So I think we agree. ??
 
FrDavid96 said:
A person cannot create a doubt with convoluted illogical arguments and then claim that there is doubt in the law. It doesn’t work that way.
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Good thing he does not do that.

(Again I have noted that various persons have different arguments here …I have been on both sides of the debate in my life myself…and currently can see both sides of the debate)
 
YoungTradCath said:
I know, Fr. I agree with the substitution thing, as is written into the Canon. I also agree that some form of penance is required, also per the Canon. [edited] So I think we agree. ??
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[edited]

Again I can see somewhat both sides here.
 
Fr David:
Friday remains a day of penance. Some form of penance is required on Fridays. A Catholic is free to substitute some other form of penance (entirely at the individual’s own discretion), or to keep the traditional no meat penance.
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However, you have not answered the question. Is it binding under pain of sin? If so, is it mortal? venial? or just an imperfection?

If one decides to keep the “traditional no meat penance,” which is not binding under ANY paiin of sin on normal Fridays, then how can it be binding to substitute another penance in its stead?

Well and good to tell us we need to do penance. No problem in understanding that. But …

Is it binding under sin?

Thank you for reviewing this.
 
:clapping: Oh, my, Bookcat - that’s a pretty daggone loud voice. I am so indebted to you!

Thank you so much. I have it bookmarked - never to forget! :amen:
 
Bookcat said:
Now can he get something wrong? yes of course.
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Exactly. 🙂

I feel like a parrot saying the same thing over and over again, but I blame this once again on Church document ambiguity.

I wonder what it would have been like to be a Catholic in the old days?
 
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YoungTradCath:
I shall do so anyways. I feel it necessary and expedient. And, given the FrDavid’s fantastic enlightenment, I feel even more supported in the matter.
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Fantastic enlightenment? How did you like the super-fantastic enlightenment from another priest who carries the weight of a Canon Lawyer and Judicial Vicar, who says it is not obligatory in the USA? 😉
 
Sirach2 said:
:clapping: Oh, my, Bookcat - that’s a pretty daggone loud voice. I am so indebted to you!

Thank you so much. I have it bookmarked - never to forget! :amen:
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Your welcome. Not to burst your bubble…it is still his particular voice (even I can be wrong…or so my wife tells me…hee hee) as I noted this is something that gets debated. I have been on both sides in my life…and can see both arguments.

The way I look at it as I noted Fridays outside of Lent and Good Friday (and not Holy Days remain “days of penance” even if one may not be obligated (in a particular country as the argument goes). So let us observe them as such~ joyfully. (and as I noted Jimmys point on Can.14 is to be noted (in terms of Canon Law)).
 
Bookcat said:
Your welcome. Not to burst your bubble…it is still his particular voice (even I can be wrong…or so my wife tells me…hee hee) as I noted this is something that gets debated. I have been on both sides in my life…and can see both arguments.

The way I look at it as I noted Fridays outside of Lent and Good Friday (and not Holy Days remain “days of penance” even if one may not be obligated (in a particular country as the argument goes). So let us observe them as such~ joyfully. (and as I noted Jimmys point on Can.14 is to be noted (in terms of Canon Law)).
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Should read: The way I look at it as I noted Fridays outside of Lent and Good Friday (and not Holy Days or solemnities) remain “days of penance” even if one may not be obligated (in a particular country as the argument goes). So let us observe them as such~ joyfully. (and as I noted Jimmys point on Can.14 is to be noted (in terms of Canon Law))
 
It never ceases to amaze me that people will do an internet search to find exactly what they’re looking to find, and then post here on CAF as if the web page that they found is some kind of infallible teaching of the Church.

I’ve already posted a link to the actual document from the US bishop’s conference that proves that what was posted from someone’s web blog is not an accurate depiction of what the document actually says.

In spite of that, some posters here still claim (albeit indirectly) that the web blog is to be trusted, while the bishops’ document is to be dismissed.

I’ll try again by quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2041 The precepts of the Church are set in the context of a moral life bound to and nourished by liturgical life. The obligatory character of these positive laws decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor:
2043 The fourth precept (“You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church”) ensures the times of ascesis [sic.] and penance which prepare us for the liturgical feasts and help us acquire mastery over our instincts and freedom of heart.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a3.htm

No doubt, someone will do a google search and say “no, don’t trust the Catechism, trust this webpage instead”🤷
 
Sirach2 said:
Fantastic enlightenment? How did you like the super-fantastic enlightenment from another priest who carries the weight of a Canon Lawyer and Judicial Vicar, who says it is not obligatory in the USA? 😉
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That is a simple yes/no statement from a very well educated person. However, such individual has not been granted the authority to express anything more than a personal opinion. Given the lack of definition of terms and logical argument to demonstrate his point he leaves a lot of room to question his opinion. He simply made a statement without offering any proof that it is a true.
 
Cristiano said:
It sounds like the definition of penitential day does not include penance or we have an invalidation of the principle of non contradiction.
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Neither.

Each day of Lent is a penitential day.

They are days especially for penance.

But not doing penance on the Mondays of Lent is very different from not doing the obligatory penance on the Fridays of Lent.
 
Gee, I didn’t mean to ignite such a firestorm! :o

Regardless, I abstained from meat today as it is not a solemnity. I’m surprised that Holy Family isn’t a solemnity. The other feasts that almost always fall on a Sunday now a days - Holy Trinity, Corpus Christi, Ascension, Epiphany - they’re all solemnities right?

Anyway, I suppose that while today is the joyous day of Jesus’ birth, it is also the day of Jesus’ death. I had French Onion Soup.
 
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Cristiano:
That is a simple yes/no statement from a very well educated person. However, such individual has not been granted the authority to express anything more than a personal opinion.
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**Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL **
J.C.L. (Juris Canonici Licentiatus, Licentiate of Canon Law)
The usual prerequisites for a license in canon law are that a candidate must have the bachelor of sacred theology degree (S.T.B.) master of divinity degree (M.Div.), master of arts (M.A.) degree in Roman Catholic theology, or juris doctor (J.D.) degree and a bachelor’s degree in canon law (J.C.B.) or its relative equivalent. In order for a candidate to obtain the licentiate of canon law, he or she must complete a six-semester, that is, three year, program of canonical studies, pass a comprehensive oral examination before a jury of faculty members, and write a thesis on a particular theme that demonstrates the student’s ability to function professionally in the field.
The license in canon law is required for a person to teach canon law in a pontifical university or seminary.

🍿 This “individual” expressing his “opinion” doesn’t need any more qualifications to express his opinion than the JCL after his title. Enough said?
 
ConstantineTG said:
According to my calendar, its not a fasting (abstinence) day today in the Ukrainian Church.
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Nor in the Ruthenian, since there is an entire week of feasting after the Nativity, but then there is a fast on the eve of Theophany.
 
Sirach2 said:
However, you have not answered the question. Is it binding under pain of sin? If so, is it mortal? venial? or just an imperfection?

If one decides to keep the “traditional no meat penance,” which is not binding under ANY paiin of sin on normal Fridays, then how can it be binding to substitute another penance in its stead?

Well and good to tell us we need to do penance. No problem in understanding that. But …

Is it binding under sin?

Thank you for reviewing this.
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I read that an intention to do no penance during the penitential periods is sinful, but in an individual instance, it is not necessarily sinful.

The thread with the source is on this forum if you search for it.
 
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