Friend at work, IVF

[maryjk]

I was thinking the same thing!

People have fundraisers to help pay for injuries and expensive cancer treatments. They might also have fundraisers to help a couple adopt internationally because costs are so high. Perhaps the couple in question sees IVF in the same light…

I couldn’t imagine someone having the guts to have a fund raiser like this. It would be like asking people to donate so my husband and I can go away for the weekend.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I actually did explain this to a coworker of mine who was planning on IVF. She decided to go with the turkey baster thing. Apparently it is a much cheaper option as well.

It disturbed me a little that she didn’t even know what IVF was and yet she was gung ho to have it done. She didn’t believe me that her embryos would die because she thought she has asked her doctor about this. Then she called the doctor and clarifies that this was exactly what he was planning to do. He did give her an option of donating the unused embryos to a “family in need”. (I’m assuming a homosexual male?) She elected to just buy a tube-o-sperm and be done with it. Even that was over a thousand dollars and she ended up having to buy a second one before she got her baby.

Perhaps a homosexual male, but I don’t know why you would assume that. Lots of straight infertile couples go for embryo adoption because it’s cheaper than IVF and it is still an option if the couple doesn’t have viable eggs or sperm themselves.

In fact, a lot of religious people do it and encourage it because it prevents embryos from being destroyed.

 

[Allegra]

Perhaps a homosexual male, but I don’t know why you would assume that. Lots of straight infertile couples go for embryo adoption because it’s cheaper than IVF and it is still an option if the couple doesn’t have viable eggs or sperm themselves.

In fact, a lot of religious people do it and encourage it because it prevents embryos from being destroyed.

I didn’t know that. I suppose that makes sense but I’ve never heard of an embyo adoption before. It does seem like a better alternative for people with moral qualms about the whole process, though I would still not feel right doing it since you would be paying money that supports the practice that orphaned the embryo in the first place. On the other hand, you would be giving that child a chance at life other then being stuck in a freezer (or however they preserve them.)

 

[Allegra]

I couldn’t imagine someone having the guts to have a fund raiser like this. It would be like asking people to donate so my husband and I can go away for the weekend.

I used to sing in a choir where the members were so in love with the director, they thought the only thing to do was to furnish him with lavish gifts everytime there was a concert or event. The last gift, (I’m not kidding.) was a two week trip to Germany to see where Bach was born! I had to decline participating in that gift because it was rediculous. How about an engraved music box people?

 

[Debora123]

I couldn’t imagine someone having the guts to have a fund raiser like this. It would be like asking people to donate so my husband and I can go away for the weekend.

Well people have the right to fund raise for whatever they want. People can donate if they want, but no one is forcing them to.

I had a friend who was fundraising so that she could get to go to Italy for her honeymoon.

If people want to donate, they will donate. If not, they won’t.

 

[maryjk]

Well people have the right to fund raise for whatever they want. People can donate if they want, but no one is forcing them to.

I had a friend who was fundraising so that she could get to go to Italy for her honeymoon.

If people want to donate, they will donate. If not, they won’t.

Oh, they have the right. I am just surprised they have the guts. I don’t know I would be able to keep a straight face if someone asked me to donate to their IVF or honeymoon. They would get at least an eyebrow raise.

 

[AdamP88]

I actually did explain this to a coworker of mine who was planning on IVF. She decided to go with the turkey baster thing. Apparently it is a much cheaper option as well.

It disturbed me a little that she didn’t even know what IVF was and yet she was gung ho to have it done. She didn’t believe me that her embryos would die because she thought she has asked her doctor about this. Then she called the doctor and clarifies that this was exactly what he was planning to do. He did give her an option of donating the unused embryos to a “family in need”. (I’m assuming a homosexual male?) She elected to just buy a tube-o-sperm and be done with it. Even that was over a thousand dollars and she ended up having to buy a second one before she got her baby.

I think many people probably aren’t aware of what IVF practitioners refer to as “wastage”, i.e. the destruction of the human embryos not needed or used.

I do think many heterosexual couples do opt for embryo adoption. It’s not just homosexual couples.

To be honest I find the idea of buying sperm disturbing. This whole concept opens a Pandora’s box of other issues regarding the rights of the child etc.

In any case, what surprises me most of all is the fact that she had a fundraiser for this. To be frank - nobody has the right to have children. Some people just can’t. This may sound harsh but using procedures like IVF and sperm donation is an abuse of the faculties that God gave us for reproduction.

Did she give a reason why adoption was something she wouldn’t consider?

 

[DeniseNY]

I think maybe instead of just explaining that it goes against your religious beliefs, you could offer to do something else in lieu of contributing to the cost of the treatment.

 

[feed_me]

I am sorry, but what is IVF exactly?

 

[AdamP88]

I am sorry, but what is IVF exactly?

In-Vitro Fertilization:

It’s the process of taking an egg and a sperm and fertilizing them in a laboratory. This is done multiple times as the failure rate for implantation is extremely high. The embryo is then implanted in the woman’s uterus.

 

[Allegra]

I think many people probably aren’t aware of what IVF practitioners refer to as “wastage”, i.e. the destruction of the human embryos not needed or used.

I do think many heterosexual couples do opt for embryo adoption. It’s not just homosexual couples.

To be honest I find the idea of buying sperm disturbing. This whole concept opens a Pandora’s box of other issues regarding the rights of the child etc.

In any case, what surprises me most of all is the fact that she had a fundraiser for this. To be frank - nobody has the right to have children. Some people just can’t. This may sound harsh but using procedures like IVF and sperm donation is an abuse of the faculties that God gave us for reproduction.

Did she give a reason why adoption was something she wouldn’t consider?

I’m not the OP, but my coworker expressed that she had attempted to adopt for some time and she didn’t think she would even be offered a baby because she was single. I do know that she did foster care for a while and she had a little girl for almost two years that she really wanted to adopt but she ended up going back to the family. I think it was probably a combination of impatience and not wanting to undergo the heart wrenching experience of falling in love with a child and having her taken away.

 

[Rence]

I see a major moral hurdle regarding IVF. IVF isn’t the same as the turkey baster method. (Which is still not Church approved, but might be what Rence is thinking of?) IVF requires doctors to remove eggs from the woman’s ovaries, fertilize them outside of the woman’s body, reinsert them into the uterus, and pump her full of hormones to mimic the natureal flow of progesterone that comes right before a woman ovulates. The obvious issue at stake is what happens to the concieved human babies that are not used during the procedure? Generally, they are preserved so they can be used if the first batch fails. If the woman becomes pregnant, these babies are preserved indefinatly or destroyed. They don’t have a chance to implant if they aren’t in the uterus, so effectively, they are created and then killed. It’s possible that one might get around this by injecting all of the embreos, but that can result in a life threatening multiple octomom scenario.

I know a couple who only did three eggs, and had all three implanted. It’s more expensive but you can do it without wasting any fertilized eggs.

 

[Rence]

This is true. This is one of the main reasons the church teaches that IVF is immoral.

Actually, it’s not true. The reasons why the Church teaches IVF is immoral is right in the Catechism. Notice, there is no bit about wastage, or that it would be okay if there was no wastage:

Remember, the Church requires the unitive property when baby-making and when engaging in the martial embrace.

2376 Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child’s right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses’ "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."167

2377 Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."168 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union . . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."169

 

[vera_dicere]

Whatever you say you’re likely to end up hurting her feelings. Whether you fob her off with something about your beleifs and you dont’ wish to discuss it further,or you just out and out say it. Frankly, I reckon you should just tell her the truth, multiple children created, screened, destoryed, an unhealthy, unnatural process that denies children the right to be concieved in their parents loving embrace but instead giving it to impersonal scientists.

My sister is starting the process of IVF, I told her outright what was involved, with a slant towards how unhealthy and how destructive it is. She’s going ahead with it anyway. I"m praying she gets pregnant naturally before tens of children are flushed down the crapper.

Its a cruddy position to be in, I can tell you that.

The other thing you can do is just not show up, tell her something else came up, something important, and that you unfortunately cannot afford to help her.

The other side of the coin is that she accepts your opposition and remains your friend regardless of yoru difference of opinion.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

I think many people probably aren’t aware of what IVF practitioners refer to as “wastage”, i.e. the destruction of the human embryos not needed or used.

I do think many heterosexual couples do opt for embryo adoption. It’s not just homosexual couples.

To be honest I find the idea of buying sperm disturbing. This whole concept opens a Pandora’s box of other issues regarding the rights of the child etc.

In any case, what surprises me most of all is the fact that she had a fundraiser for this. To be frank - nobody has the right to have children. Some people just can’t. This may sound harsh but using procedures like IVF and sperm donation is an abuse of the faculties that God gave us for reproduction.

Did she give a reason why adoption was something she wouldn’t consider?

I agree and it is sad that many people don’t bother to educate themselves before they delve into something like this. I had a long conversation with her on a break once on the topic and she seemed just turned off to the idea of adoption. I think mainly, she just has a really strong desire to have a child that is biologically her’s and her husband’s, or if not her husband’s at least her’s if she chooses to use a sperm donor. I can’t say I understand this as I am not a woman, but I imagine the emotional desire to have a child from one’s own body is a strong one for most women.

As I understand it, her in-laws are strongly against any form of IVF or other “outside the marriage act” type of conception as well.

 

[St_Francis]

If your friend questions you, you can simply answer her straight out of the Catechism an encyclical that covers IVF. I personally don’t find anything wrong with IVF at all whatsoever, but I acknowledge and follow the Church’s rules in this matter. When people ask me about IVF, I just tell them the rules of the Church on it. You can inform her about the rules of the Church without judgement As to the email, I wouldn’t respond to the email myself, I’d just let it go. I wouldn’t donate either…however, after the baby is born (or babies) I’d give a gift then. After all, children are children no matter where they come from and each is as much a miracle as the next.

Though… I recently found out via CAF that the Church actually doesn’t outright forbid IVF and finds it ‘less reprehensible’ when married couples use it than using a random donor.

Less reprehensible does not really mean moral. It just means that there are one or two two fewer sins involved.