Friend Became a Mormon

[TexanKnight]

So, Neuro…since you are all into geography…where DID the book of js take place?

and…what is your position on excavating cumorah?

 

[LivingWaters7]

Living Waters, I’m sorry you never gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon. It is not so impossible as you make it out to be.

Hi Janderich,

My point was certainly not to make it out to be “impossible” to receive a “testimony” (or what is believed to be a testimony) of the Book of Mormon, and I don’t believe I stated nor implied anything like that. What I was referring to was my own personal experience with attempting to receive a testimony of the Book of Mormon, doing what all investigators are asked to do, asking God humbly, sincerely, with real intent, whether it is true. I never received an answer from God that it was, despite doing so. There are also many others that have had similar experiences. Some have even received an answer from God that it is not true, at least that’s what they believe (just like how I assume you believe you have received an affirmative answer). I further stated that this sort of thinking can lead to psychological issues, where the investigator wonders if something is “wrong” with them, if they followed the formula and didn’t receive an affirmative answer.

All religion has some truth and some falsehood. The key is to know how to search in the light of Christ to find the truth. The Holy Ghost testifies of truth. Joseph Smith said, “The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence.” (Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith 149-150). The Holy Ghost gives intelligence. Because of the understanding he gives we have certain feelings. But the Holy Ghost is not simply a nice feeling like I might have when buying some new clothes.
It is a still small voice but it is not insignificant.

There is much truth in the world and much falsehood. I may pray to know if Jesus is the Christ and the Spirit will testify that it is so, but this will not tell me which church to join. That is why one must pray about specifics like the Book of Mormon. There are only a few churches which believe in the book. Once this truth is know then one can pray about other specific things and the Spirit will confirm it.

Yes indeed, there is much true in all religions, as well as falsehood. Catholics would agree with such an assessment (naturally believing that the Catholic Church has the fulness of the Truth). The point is that people of virtually all religions in the world have had what they believe to be spiritual experiences from their deity that confirm the truths that are being taught in that religion. The LDS Church simply is not unique in that regard, and this has been something common in religious practice for thousands of years prior to the establishment of the LDS religion.

For me, as I mentioned, I very strongly believe, even know, that God led me back home to the Catholic Church. It was an extremely difficult decision, one I think about weekly, but I know through the Spirit that God leads the Catholic Church, and has led it since He established it anciently. Throughout my time as a Latter-day Saint, there was always something (or Someone) pulling me back to Catholicism, and it wasn’t until I finally began to listen to that voice that I realized where I needed to go. Coupled with my spiritual experience in that regard, there were also many reasoned arguments and issues that led me back to the Catholic faith, as I’ve mentioned before. I no longer had to put things up on the mental shelf, and realized that both faith and reason were leading me back. I appreciate the LDS faith, try to objectively speak about it (and other religions for that matter), and not personally attack or disparage those that hold beliefs different from mine. However, in my view, after listening to the Spirit and looking at reasoned arguments on both sides, I had no choice but to return to the Catholic faith established by Jesus Christ, with Him at the head of the Church, protecting His body throughout the ages.

 

[LivingWaters7]

That’s my strongest objection, Cathoholic. Mormonism is in a sense an atheistic religion. If I said that the planets were being populated by super-advanced aliens determined to spread life in the universe, that would be interesting from a sociological perspective, but it would not be theology. The core problem with Mormon teachings when it comes to True God is that Mormonism does not recognize a Creator. I mean an original Creator, The One and Only who Began Everything. Mormonism teaches that God was once a man, who was so very good that he was allowed (by his God, his Heavenly Father) to join the ranks of the Gods over a personal, finite domain of his own. So there is God and God’s God. What or Who started this cycle or evolution of successive gods? More importantly, since these God’s were once mortals with powers no greater than ours here on this forum, and since there was (presumably) a time when they were not even conscious, when they had no self-awareness, and therefore could not maintain themselves let alone a solar system; therefore What or Who is maintaining this process of godly successions of generations of gods? That to me would seem to be the True God. But no Mormon seems to know Who That is.

BlessedLDS, do you know who the Creator is? Or the Father of your current God?

YES. A major difficulty I had with the LDS faith was entertaining the idea that God the Father was once a man that progressed to Godhood, and that there was a previous Heavenly Father for our Heavenly Father, and on and on into infinity (an “infinite regress of gods”). Now, some LDS may not believe such a thing (whenever this topic comes up over at MDDB, there are a number of LDS that say they don’t believe it, instead claiming beliefs similar to the orthodox viewpoint). However, it is clear that LDS theology and teachings of various prophets and apostles, including Joseph Smith, includes such possibilities. In contrast, Catholicism simply does not allow such a possibility at all. God has always been God, He did not have to progress to Godhood, there was no God the Father over our God the Father, etc. Further, such ideas are nowhere found in the Bible nor in the writings of the earliest Christians.

So, while I find theosis/deification to be a beautiful, and orthodox doctrine, found in Catholicism for 2000 years, I could never believe that God was once not God, a man, and learned how to be God (and we therefore follow His example), as Joseph Smith and other LDS prophets, seers, revelators, and apostles have taught. I’m sure there are others that are okay with such a teaching.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Why do I always get this request of proof from people of faith? Where is the proof that Moses parted the Red Sea? Where is the proof that Elijah was carried into Heaven? Where is the proof of the resurrection, the most important event in the history of the world? Do you believe that these events occurred? Why? It seems you are not consistent for you take some things on faith and yet demand proof of others. Search your heart, how do you know these miracles occured?

I think you’re misunderstanding. With the Bible, we know of the exact location of many of the places referenced. We also know of many of the events and specific people referenced. The Bible is firmly in the category of historical religious texts (in contrast to the more mythical religious texts). Sure, there are still questions about certain locations mentioned in the Bible, however the field of Biblical archaeology and geography simply doesn’t compare to anything related to the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon however has yet to be substantiated as actually having occurred in the specific locations referenced, since we don’t know where those locations are in the first place. Many, if not most, LDS apologists believe that much of the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica. However, other LDS apologists say it occurred in South America, and others say it occurred in the Great Lakes area. Each group puts out their own evidences for their own theory, as well as why it couldn’t be the other theories. I’m not sure if mainstream, non-LDS academic scholars have commented on where it occurred. That is the problem that is being discussed, and not miraculous events. It’s geography, not miracles. In the end, these are only theories. No one can say definitively, as we can with much of the Bible, were BoM events took place. And of course, these are apologists giving their views. The LDS Church itself has no opinion and is silent on the matter.

 

[LivingWaters7]

There is much still to learn. I of course do not have all truth, no one does. But I take what I know and I continue to learn. That is how it works. There are certain truths I have obtained and I do not ignore them. Does a scientist dismiss the fact that 1+1 = 2 because he does not know the entire workings of the universe? No. Neither do I question what I know.

Right. And people of other religions say the same thing.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I see, you and Judas Thaddeus will define what is an acceptable direction and degree of proof. Somehow I think that if you had it, it would still not be enough. The book is before you, the witnesses have testified of it, and the Spirit will also confirm it. The evidence is testimonial, reject it if you will. But I will not do the same.

I see no reason to reason to entertain the supernatural elements in the book when the mundane natural elements lack any substantiation. At the very least with the bible you have people who did actually exist, did live in some of the places they claim and did build some of the things described, not so with the BoM.

The “witnesses” are another type of problem, like others here I don’t place a lot of stock in the BoM witnesses. They did not write their own testimony and nothing exists to show they ever actually signed their names to the statements written by others. I also find odd the way LDS members are so struck by and reverent toward “death bed” statements, why should any of these statements be considered factual and not the romantic notions or interpretations of immediate family and friends.

Your assertion that the the Spirit will confirm the BoM, well of course I have not had the Spirit confirm it (quite the contrary, repeatedly) and so from my point your spirit is confirming what you’d like it to. I could try to convince you that my experiences are so much more than yours, like you keep doing, but that is pointless isn’t it? You will be no more impressed by my experiences than I am by yours. So maybe drop the constant testimony, contrary to what you’ve been lead to believe, it’s not convincing.

 

[NeuroTypical]

So, Neuro…since you are all into geography…where DID the book of js take place?

I’m not into geography, I’m into helping my lds-critic friends refine their criticisms to something worthy of serious consideration, and that silly map really isn’t.

and…what is your position on excavating cumorah?

I love faith-bending hypotheticals. Tell you what - I’ll give you a hypothetical, and whatever answer you give, I’ll adopt as my own.

Here’s my hypothetical: Let’s say that tomorrow, you wake up and hear from a reputable, non-LDS news service that professional non-LDS archaeologists have made some stunning finds in mesoamerica that support the truth claims of the BoM. Something like steel swords, or elephant and precolumbian horse bones, or evidence of huge battles, maybe and a large city complex with “Welcome to Zarahemla” written in a writing system that seems to be some sort of reformed Egyptian.

Texan - if something like that happened, would you change your mind about the truth claims of the BoM and LDS church? Would you switch religions over such an event?

I’m happy to take whatever answer you give, and adopt it as my answer to a similar question about excavating Cumorah and finding nothing.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I’m not into geography, I’m into helping my lds-critic friends refine their criticisms to something worthy of serious consideration, and that silly map really isn’t.

I love faith-bending hypotheticals. Tell you what - I’ll give you a hypothetical, and whatever answer you give, I’ll adopt as my own.

Here’s my hypothetical: Let’s say that tomorrow, you wake up and hear from a reputable, non-LDS news service that professional non-LDS archaeologists have made some stunning finds in mesoamerica that support the truth claims of the BoM. Something like steel swords, or elephant and precolumbian horse bones, or evidence of huge battles, maybe and a large city complex with “Welcome to Zarahemla” written in a writing system that seems to be some sort of reformed Egyptian.

Texan - if something like that happened, would you change your mind about the truth claims of the BoM and LDS church? Would you switch religions over such an event?

I’m happy to take whatever answer you give, and adopt it as my answer to a similar question about excavating Cumorah and finding nothing.

Can you show us the Stone Box from the Hill Cumorah?! I’m sure it’s still there!

Also, you talk about “what if tomorrow” BoM lands, peoples, &
artifacts discovered" stuff, well WHAT’S IT GONNA TAKE?!?!

We have radar, many men covering a lot of fieldwork, we even have fricken’ satellites in OUTER
SPACE that can detect a PENNY many yards UNDERGROUND, but what do find? NOTHING!!!
The Book of Mormon is a 19th century work of fiction (and a very fine one at that, won’t deny),
which is supported by that gullible “burning in the bosom” and supposition guess work of “may-
bes” and “what ifs” and “maybe then it’s possible that…”

Here and now in this present age of science and technology, and of course REASON,
we should be able to find something decent, and no the NHM stone is really nothing.

 

[Porknpie]

I’m not into geography, I’m into helping my lds-critic friends refine their criticisms to something worthy of serious consideration, and that silly map really isn’t.

I love faith-bending hypotheticals. Tell you what - I’ll give you a hypothetical, and whatever answer you give, I’ll adopt as my own.

Faith and reason…we can reason that the BoM is not true.

A) All of the Book of Mormon is true
B) Hill Cumorah NY is described as a place of a great battle in the BoM.
Therefore (the story of) Hill Cumorah is true.

Using reason, we know now that B) above, the story of there being a great battle on hill Cumorah is not true. Therefore … A) can not be true.

Truth can not be partial, therefore truth must be found somewhere else…just as the Catholic Church has claimed.

No apostasy can be found either. It’s all very consistent. One must have faith and reason, and not faith and feelings.

PnP

 

[Miriam1947]

Originally Posted by twopekinguys here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11126634#post11126634

Could you explain this?

“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him.” -1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon

This would be considered doctrine would it not?

How about this?

“[There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” -Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

This would also be considered doctrine right?

Where is Jesus in any of this?

ETA: This one is my favorite.

“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are… [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—”Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.” -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91"

Attached thumbnail is the witness statement and so-called signatures.

 

[arahabrahim]

Did Mormon believed Jesus as Son of God and also God or they only believe Jesus is just a messenger not God and not divine?

 

[superwimp]

I’m not into geography, I’m into helping my lds-critic friends refine their criticisms to something worthy of serious consideration, and that silly map really isn’t.

I love faith-bending hypotheticals. Tell you what - I’ll give you a hypothetical, and whatever answer you give, I’ll adopt as my own.

Here’s my hypothetical: Let’s say that tomorrow, you wake up and hear from a reputable, non-LDS news service that professional non-LDS archaeologists have made some stunning finds in mesoamerica that support the truth claims of the BoM. Something like steel swords, or elephant and precolumbian horse bones, or evidence of huge battles, maybe and a large city complex with “Welcome to Zarahemla” written in a writing system that seems to be some sort of reformed Egyptian.

Texan - if something like that happened, would you change your mind about the truth claims of the BoM and LDS church? Would you switch religions over such an event?

I’m happy to take whatever answer you give, and adopt it as my answer to a similar question about excavating Cumorah and finding nothing.

Hello Neuro…
I'm not Texan, but I couldn't help but respond to your challenge. The short answer I would believe in the historicity of the BOM. None of the above events you mentioned above have any relevance with regards to the truth claims of the LDS church. In fact many of the teachings of the BOM are in opposition to the teachings of the LDS church.

 

[Janderich]

Originally Posted by twopekinguys here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11126634#post11126634

Could you explain this?

“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him.” -1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon

This would be considered doctrine would it not?

How about this?

“[There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” -Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

This would also be considered doctrine right?

Where is Jesus in any of this?

ETA: This one is my favorite.

“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are… [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—”Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.” -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91"

Sure, I’ve explained it to Twopekinguys, I’ll give it again…

These quotes are simple to explain. As far as acceptance goes that is a whole different matter. But here it is. Joseph Smith stands at the head of a dispensation. In any dispensation there is a prophet who has restored precious truths and posses certain keys. In our day Joseph Smith is that man. Thus if people do not accept these truths then they are stopped in their progression.

Now to forestall the other inevitable comments… None of these quotes say Joseph is equal with Christ or that Joseph has supplanted him as the final judge. There is a clear order to these things and Christ stands at the head of all dispensations (see 1 Ne 12:9-10)forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11132519&postcount=371

In the previous conversation there was confusion over the term dispensation so I further explained…

When LDS say “this dispensation” it refers to the dispensation that began with Joseph Smith. Christ lived in the dispensation of the meridian of time. Joseph started the dispensation of the fullness of times. So there is no conflict, Christ will be the final judge of all men.

 

[TexanKnight]

I’m not into geography, I’m into helping my lds-critic friends refine their criticisms to something worthy of serious consideration, and that silly map really isn’t.

ah…so you use it only when you think it will help, but dodge when it is clear it will hurt. I am glad the Catholic Church does not make it necessary for me to do those knds of mental gymnastics…

I love faith-bending hypotheticals.

it was not a hypothetical. It was a question. Your prophets said what they said. Either they are true or not. So, I asked a question. You dodged…as I knew you would.

Tell you what - I’ll give you a hypothetical, and whatever answer you give, I’ll adopt as my own.

ah…yet another dodge…don’t blame you. what else can you do as a Mormon?

Here’s my hypothetical:

mine was a question that you dodged…

Let’s say that tomorrow, you wake up and hear from a reputable, non-LDS news service that professional non-LDS archaeologists have made some stunning finds in mesoamerica that support the truth claims of the BoM. Something like steel swords, or elephant and precolumbian horse bones, or evidence of huge battles, maybe and a large city complex with “Welcome to Zarahemla” written in a writing system that seems to be some sort of reformed Egyptian.

Texan - if something like that happened, would you change your mind about the truth claims of the BoM and LDS church? Would you switch religions over such an event?

I have always said that I loved being LDS. I have always said I wish it was true. If what you said happened, and the finds actually proved to be something that verified the Book of Mormon, then I think I would have no choice than to reconsider my current position and very likely return to the LDS Church

I’m happy to take whatever answer you give, and adopt it as my answer to a similar question about excavating Cumorah and finding nothing.

Then start RCIA. Be a man of your word. The Church has already determined there is nothing to find at Cumorah

 

[LivingWaters7]

Sure, I’ve explained it to Twopekinguys, I’ll give it again…

In the previous conversation there was confusion over the term dispensation so I further explained…

Thanks, yes, I agree that those statements are sometimes misconstrued to mean that Joseph Smith is over Christ.

 

[TexanKnight]

Thanks, yes, I agree that those statements are sometimes misconstrued to mean that Joseph Smith is over Christ.

I do not think they are misconstrued at all.

 

[TexanKnight]

I see Neuro has refused to honor his part of the deal.

On a related note…I watched General Conference…kept waiting for an announcement that Cumorah would be excavated…

 

[Stephen168]

I love faith-bending hypotheticals. Tell you what - I’ll give you a hypothetical, and whatever answer you give, I’ll adopt as my own.

Here’s my hypothetical: Let’s say that tomorrow, you wake up and hear from a reputable, non-LDS news service that professional non-LDS archaeologists have made some stunning finds in mesoamerica that support the truth claims of the BoM. Something like steel swords, or elephant and precolumbian horse bones, or evidence of huge battles, maybe and a large city complex with “Welcome to Zarahemla” written in a writing system that seems to be some sort of reformed Egyptian.

Texan - if something like that happened, would you change your mind about the truth claims of the BoM and LDS church? Would you switch religions over such an event?

A hypothetical like a hypothesis is required to be open to the possibility of being true. Science as already proven the Book of Mormon to be fiction, hypothetical does not apply. You can fantasize about the Book of Mormon being true but you can never hypothesis that it is true. Because Joseph Smith said it was non-fiction, I would question everything else he ever said including the movement he founded.

 

[NeuroTypical]

Texan - if something like that happened, would you change your mind about the truth claims of the BoM and LDS church? Would you switch religions over such an event?

Honest answer, Texan, thanks. Now you know my answer to Cumorah being excavated. I’m not sure what’s behind your hostility or uncharitable accusations, but I was being serious.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Honest answer, Texan, thanks. Now you know my answer to Cumorah being excavated. I’m not sure what’s behind your hostility or uncharitable accusations, but I was being serious.

We don’t even need to do any actual excavating of the hill Cumorah, again we have satellites in outer space that can find out for us whether there
are thousands of dead bodies, Mormon artifacts, etc. At least we should be able to find the stone box there if you want to throw out that “Double
Hill Cumorah” theory (theory in the mundane sense, not scientific).