Friend dabbles with new age - please help

[Lost_one]

Hi,

a very dear friend of mine (a non denominational protestant) has completely left Christian beliefs. He now follows a new age type philosophy and rejects the idea of the sacrifice of Christ. I would like to buy him a book for Christmas that would help to show him that this “religion” is not only wrong but dangerous. I would like to add he now is a chakra healer as well

Thank you for any recommendations.

Fred

 

[3DOCTORS]

:ehh: Wow. That would be a challenge. I would suggest before trying to buy a book or anything, drop back and pray - which I’m sure you’re doing - keep at it, pray really hard.

Pray for him and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you in what to say.

It sounds as if whatever is driving him out of the faith he had before and into the New Age stuff is the thing you need to try to find out. For example - is it boredom, desire for fewer moral rules, fascination with learning something new and different? Is he emotionally wounded in some way and this gives him solace that he hasn’t found in his former faith?

He’s probably in a state of excitement and discovery of these new practices. I fear that to confront this directly and be insistent about pointing out the errors of New Age practices would just make him stubborn and resistant. :dts:

Unless - only you can answer this - you know him well enough to be sure he would be opening to listening to what you have to say at this time.

Meanwhile, do your homework, read up on CAF and EWTN and other reliable sources for information about New Age. The “Beginning Apologetics” series book #4 by Fr Frank Chacon & Jim Burnham provides a good overview of the issues that might come in conversation.

adoremusbooks.com/beginningapologetics4.aspx

There is also a Vatican document you might find helpful for starters.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

Also, of course, be thoroughly grounded in Scripture and the Catechism! :bible1: God bless you for caring and hope all goes well. I’ll add my prayers too.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Fred, how are things going? Did you find some helpful resources?

 

[Lost_one]

Fred, how are things going? Did you find some helpful resources?

Hi,

please excuse my late reply. I am writing him a letter as we live in different countries. I really hope he will find the truth in the end, it would be sad if he lost his salvation, as he is a very nice and meek person.

Thank you for your interest, please pray for him too.

Fred

 

[3DOCTORS]

Hi,

please excuse my late reply. I am writing him a letter as we live in different countries. I really hope he will find the truth in the end, it would be sad if he lost his salvation, as he is a very nice and meek person.

Thank you for your interest, please pray for him too.

Fred

Will do! Sometimes the meek and sensitive souls do seem to find some kind of solace in New Age beliefs - the “warm fuzzies,” the emphasis on healing, and the fellowship with other like personalities. Then they are sometimes influenced to look at “organized religion” as a bad, oppressive thing that has allegedly done more harm than good, is “intolerant,” etc. Don’t know if this is the case with your friend but I picked up on what you said and that’s where my train of thought went.

 

[Paul_Matthias]

I would suggest giving him some of the books that deal with exorcism. They are a real wake-up call to the dangers of messing with the New Age philosophies and un-Christian type belief systems.

I would recommend the books by Malachi Martin and Gabriele Amorth. They contain real stories of demonic possession and oppression. Their books are available on Amazon and other places.

Many people don’t realize the extreme danger they are putting themselves in when they pursue types of Non-Christian spirituality.

God Bless You

 

[TimothyH]

Try “Overcoming the New Age Movement” by Matthew Arnold, Catholic Lighthouse Media.

lighthousecatholicmedia.org/store/title/overcoming-the-new-age-movement

 

[Big_Dummy]

check out a book called Wicca’s Charm.

 

[PAboy57]

check out the books available right here on CAF. wide range of topics and good prices. I just bought 6 of them. take care.

 

[kenofken]

Since he’s not your minor child but a man of his own spirit and reason, you might try respecting his choices and spiritual journey. If you engage him in conversation and he makes it clear that he is really a Christian struggling with certain beliefs or misconceptions, you might have a role to play. Bring it up once and if he doesn’t bit or makes it clear he’s not interested, let it drop and find a new friend if you must. Believe it or not, most of us pagans are bright enough to figure out when someone’s friendship interest in us is driven primarily by their vision of us as a “mark” for conversion. I also wouldn’t waste your time with any of the “satanic panic” literature. Most of us are bright enough to see that for what it is as well.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Since he’s not your minor child but a man of his own spirit and reason, you might try respecting his choices and spiritual journey. If you engage him in conversation and he makes it clear that he is really a Christian struggling with certain beliefs or misconceptions, you might have a role to play. Bring it up once and if he doesn’t bit or makes it clear he’s not interested, let it drop and find a new friend if you must. Believe it or not, most of us pagans are bright enough to figure out when someone’s friendship interest in us is driven primarily by their vision of us as a “mark” for conversion. I also wouldn’t waste your time with any of the “satanic panic” literature. Most of us are bright enough to see that for what it is as well.

Are you referring to traditional Paganism or “neo”-Paganism? Because it seems like there is a fundamental difference. Paganism centuries ago referred to the worship of gods/goddesses (like Zeus for example) that were in cultures that didn’t believe in the Judeo-Christian monotheistic worship of one God. But these older pagan systems, weren’t they more or less stable outgrowths of the cultures in which each came to be and flourished? There was some borrowing, perhaps, but they were each reflective of their culture.

Whereas the neo-Paganism that has become popular in the last few decades seems to be a remaking of old Paganism filtered through the lenses of feminism and with extra emphasis on nature worship and ecology and Wiccan practices. And isn’t there often a retrospective and perhaps anachronistic borrowing of gods and goddesses from several different ancient cultures in neo-Paganism, rather than it being the outgrowth of the culture in which it came to be?

I’m no expert, so correct me if I’m not getting it right in places.

 

[kenofken]

Are you referring to traditional Paganism or “neo”-Paganism? Because it seems like there is a fundamental difference. Paganism centuries ago referred to the worship of gods/goddesses (like Zeus for example) that were in cultures that didn’t believe in the Judeo-Christian monotheistic worship of one God. But these older pagan systems, weren’t they more or less stable outgrowths of the cultures in which each came to be and flourished? There was some borrowing, perhaps, but they were each reflective of their culture.

Whereas the neo-Paganism that has become popular in the last few decades seems to be a remaking of old Paganism filtered through the lenses of feminism and with extra emphasis on nature worship and ecology and Wiccan practices. And isn’t there often a retrospective and perhaps anachronistic borrowing of gods and goddesses from several different ancient cultures in neo-Paganism, rather than it being the outgrowth of the culture in which it came to be?

I’m no expert, so correct me if I’m not getting it right in places.

That is a distinction, but since we are talking about the practices of contemporary people, I use the term pagan to mean us (neo) types. One could make the argument that today’s Catholics are “neoChristians” relative to the guys who held Mass in the catacombs in Nero’s day.

Your question supposes that the only “real” paganism was something that only ancient, ignorant people practiced because they had not yet been offered the hottest software download in the form of Christianity. It’s OK, I’m well used to that. It’s an unavoidable mindset of monotheistic religions with exclusivist doctrines. And you touch on a debate that’s still very vigorous within today’s pagan community, whether our practices are old or new and what that means for their legitimacy. My take is that EVERY religion exists in the context of the time and culture it is in. That was true of ancient Greece and all other “old pagan” religions and it is true of today’s “neo” paganism. There was also extensive borrowing and cross-pollination of deities and beliefs in the ancient world. In almost all cases, religions were derivative or informed by older and or foreign traditions, and they evolved with time.

You seem to suggest that today’s paganism is a purely artificial appropriation of a “long dead” mythology for purposes that have nothing to do with its original context. I would counter that, first of all, the old gods and our communion with them never died. They were submerged by the rise of Christianity, but were never as far from the surface as we suppose. They continued to speak to our hearts and we continued to reverence them, even if we ceased formal worship by 600 ad or so. That fact is evident by painting sculpture and literature from the Middle Ages all the way through the Romantic Era.

Our modern pagan traditions are reconstructions, of course. They vary widely in their accuracy of reconstruction and all are, in large measure, thoroughly modern adaptations. Most of us have no delusions about being ancient Celts or Greeks, nor do we try to.

We work with our gods and goddesses in the best way we know how as 21st Century people. We honor the ancient cultures and try to pay homage to them in small ways, but our paganism arises from OUR culture as much as the Greek’s Zeus temples arose from theirs. To us, it is as authentic as any of the ancient rituals. We do this because the gods are with us in ritual and everyday life. They speak to our minds and hearts and souls as clearly as Yahweh spoke to Moses on the mountain or your pope in his deepest reveries of prayer. Are there people who glom onto the ancient imagery to tart up their own secular agendas? Sure. But those are the ones who come and go or don’t practice in any depth. Those of us who hold ritual every month and study our traditions for years would not do so if we were just playing dress-up and having a bit of fantasy. Finally, if the legitimacy of a religion is chained to its culture and era of origin, that would mean that Christianity would be a fanciful embellishment to anyone who did not take the faith as a Jew in Imperial Rome.

I don’t, of course, expect you or other Catholics on the forum to accept our religion as valid, but it might help to understand how we see ourselves. My main point relative to the original thread is this: those of us who are on a pagan path out of choice and discernment don’t appreciate attempts to “rescue” us anymore than you would appreciate attempts by atheists or Mormons or protestants to “free” you from the “error” of Catholicism. If the friend in this case expresses an interest in Christianity, by all means, take up the conversation. Feel free to make the pitch, once. If he doesn’t bite, it’s time to move on and either respect his free will or part ways.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I do appreciate the explanation and clarification, Ken. Yes, obviously our beliefs are vastly different. It’s sad that there isn’t unity of religion on Planet Earth (and you know me, I’d like to see that be Catholicism!).

But I guess for now it’s better to learn about what each other believes than to try to meld them together and be in denial about the differences that do exist. Your explanation is educational and well presented.

One difference I see between paganism and Christianity is that the former seems partly involved with human practitioner having power and control through spells and rituals, and the latter being about surrender to God’s will.

An oversimplification perhaps. But, like, for the sake of discussion, what would a practiciing pagan’s take be on the Cross and the sacrifice of Jesus? The people at the Crucifixion were saying to Jesus, “If you’re the Son of God, save yourself, come down from the cross,” etc.

And if (for you, it would be a rhetorical question, for me it would be a realistic one) Jesus was God, He could have done so without magic, with real divine power. Yet He chose not to. His was the grandaddy of all sacrifices, so to speak. He had the power to smoosh us all like bugs if He wanted, but he didn’t use it. You see where I’m going with this? I’m just curious as to your take on it.

 

[kenofken]

I do appreciate the explanation and clarification, Ken. Yes, obviously our beliefs are vastly different. It’s sad that there isn’t unity of religion on Planet Earth (and you know me, I’d like to see that be Catholicism!).

But I guess for now it’s better to learn about what each other believes than to try to meld them together and be in denial about the differences that do exist. Your explanation is educational and well presented.

One difference I see between paganism and Christianity is that the former seems partly involved with human practitioner having power and control through spells and rituals, and the latter being about surrender to God’s will.

An oversimplification perhaps. But, like, for the sake of discussion, what would a practiciing pagan’s take be on the Cross and the sacrifice of Jesus? The people at the Crucifixion were saying to Jesus, “If you’re the Son of God, save yourself, come down from the cross,” etc.

And if (for you, it would be a rhetorical question, for me it would be a realistic one) Jesus was God, He could have done so without magic, with real divine power. Yet He chose not to. His was the grandaddy of all sacrifices, so to speak. He had the power to smoosh us all like bugs if He wanted, but he didn’t use it. You see where I’m going with this? I’m just curious as to your take on it.

I appreciate your response. More often than not these days, discussions like this are usually an attempt to goad me into a response that will get me suspended. It’s a very dodgy thing being a pagan on this forum and I have a very large target on my back.

The whole power question is somewhat more complex than you suggest. Our best traditions understand the use of power as something completely natural in service of ourselves and all of creation. One of my favorite authors, Kerr Cuhulain, uses the paradigm of “power with” rather than “power over” others. We don’t seek or delude ourselves that we have power over nature with magick anymore than a skilled sailor has power over the wind or a forester has power over fire. They are forces out there which can be used to good or ill effect. We also recognize that we are subordinate not only to gods but to the warp and weft of fate which is woven by our choices and the run of events all around us. Our posture toward our gods is very different. We do not surrender all to our god’s will as they don’t want or particularly respect such an attitude. There are times we do appeal to them for help and times they do help us, but they expect us to do our utmost to shoulder the burden first. They admire and reward boldness, courage. loyalty to kin and clan and hospitality to strangers.

Sacrifice. THAT is a big area of theology for us both. In our world views and mythology, sacrifice is often undertaken either for the good of others and all creation and/or as an initiation to wisdom. Odin, we are told, willingly sacrificed an eye and hung from the world tree in rather miserable fashion to attain the gift of the runes, the alphabet which gave mankind a powerful tool for both communication, magick and divination. At our harvest festival in September, we celebrate sacrifice in the spirit of John Barleycorn, the life of the grain of the field, which is sacrificed for the life of the people. An end but not an ultimate end.

The crucifixion is an interesting sacrifice to be sure. There’s no question that God/God in the form of Christ could have prevailed over a handful of Roman soldiers. His track record at smiting humans was well established by then. His problem, of course, wasn’t humans. It was Satan. Apparently willing and unreserved sacrifice was the only thing that had the power to break Satan’s hold on the world and humanity. That’s an interesting dilemma to me as it suggest that Satan, as a being of the same blood of angels and perhaps God himself, was, if not equal in power to Yahweh, at least was pretty close. If God could crush Satan as He could humans, or best him in a battle of spells or swords, you would think He would have gone that route rather than the circuitous and rather miserable route of taking human form and getting himself killed in a rather inhumane way.

The whole story opens up interesting questions to my mind. What is the nature of that sacrifice and suffering to a being who has perfect foreknowledge of it and perfect wisdom to be at peace with why it must be done? I mean, plenty of humans sacrifice themselves in ways that are equally or more physically painful and with no certainty of their fate after death. Maybe the real sacrifice was the experience of suffering and limitation and indignity of embodied existence to a being who was used to no bounds and the power to create a universe with a thought. Maybe it was the suffering of having an ungrateful race of creatures rebel against you.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I appreciate your response. More often than not these days, discussions like this are usually an attempt to goad me into a response that will get me suspended. It’s a very dodgy thing being a pagan on this forum and I have a very large target on my back.

The whole power question is somewhat more complex than you suggest. Our best traditions understand the use of power as something completely natural in service of ourselves and all of creation. One of my favorite authors, Kerr Cuhulain, uses the paradigm of “power with” rather than “power over” others. We don’t seek or delude ourselves that we have power over nature with magick anymore than a skilled sailor has power over the wind or a forester has power over fire. They are forces out there which can be used to good or ill effect. We also recognize that we are subordinate not only to gods but to the warp and weft of fate which is woven by our choices and the run of events all around us. Our posture toward our gods is very different. We do not surrender all to our god’s will as they don’t want or particularly respect such an attitude. There are times we do appeal to them for help and times they do help us, but they expect us to do our utmost to shoulder the burden first. They admire and reward boldness, courage. loyalty to kin and clan and hospitality to strangers.

Sacrifice. THAT is a big area of theology for us both. In our world views and mythology, sacrifice is often undertaken either for the good of others and all creation and/or as an initiation to wisdom. Odin, we are told, willingly sacrificed an eye and hung from the world tree in rather miserable fashion to attain the gift of the runes, the alphabet which gave mankind a powerful tool for both communication, magick and divination. At our harvest festival in September, we celebrate sacrifice in the spirit of John Barleycorn, the life of the grain of the field, which is sacrificed for the life of the people. An end but not an ultimate end.

The crucifixion is an interesting sacrifice to be sure. There’s no question that God/God in the form of Christ could have prevailed over a handful of Roman soldiers. His track record at smiting humans was well established by then. His problem, of course, wasn’t humans. It was Satan. Apparently willing and unreserved sacrifice was the only thing that had the power to break Satan’s hold on the world and humanity. That’s an interesting dilemma to me as it suggest that Satan, as a being of the same blood of angels and perhaps God himself, was, if not equal in power to Yahweh, at least was pretty close. If God could crush Satan as He could humans, or best him in a battle of spells or swords, you would think He would have gone that route rather than the circuitous and rather miserable route of taking human form and getting himself killed in a rather inhumane way.

The whole story opens up interesting questions to my mind. What is the nature of that sacrifice and suffering to a being who has perfect foreknowledge of it and perfect wisdom to be at peace with why it must be done? I mean, plenty of humans sacrifice themselves in ways that are equally or more physically painful and with no certainty of their fate after death. Maybe the real sacrifice was the experience of suffering and limitation and indignity of embodied existence to a being who was used to no bounds and the power to create a universe with a thought. Maybe it was the suffering of having an ungrateful race of creatures rebel against you.

Thanks again for an interesting reply. My question about Christ I can see now was somewhat limited in scope - because it is the “why” that matters to Christians, and the answer to the “why” (in 20 words or less!) is so that we would have the model of sacrificial love to imitate.

Anyway, have a good night!

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Since he’s not your minor child but a man of his own spirit and reason, you might try respecting his choices and spiritual journey. If you engage him in conversation and he makes it clear that he is really a Christian struggling with certain beliefs or misconceptions, you might have a role to play. Bring it up once and if he doesn’t bit or makes it clear he’s not interested, let it drop and find a new friend if you must. Believe it or not, most of us pagans are bright enough to figure out when someone’s friendship interest in us is driven primarily by their vision of us as a “mark” for conversion. I also wouldn’t waste your time with any of the “satanic panic” literature. Most of us are bright enough to see that for what it is as well.

Ken:

I don’t believe Lost_One or anyone else here is talking about a Pagan, Neo or otherwise. I know from personal experience that a lot of Christians dabble in the Occult and New-Age Mysticism with no awareness about what they are doing… Most of these people have no clue how much power those things can have over them. I only know because my mother and Grandmother were both psychics, and I was “expected” to continue in the “family business”. It was really hard for me to throw out the Tarot, the Ephemeris and my mother’s other “Tools”. It took longer and more effort (and help) to get be freed from the “Divining & Prophesying Spirits” I had as part of “My inheritance”.

As these Spirits mimic Gifts of the Holy Spirit and often feel good and powerful to those who “use” them, It’s usually not until later that those who are under the influence of these Spirits notice their terrible effects on their lives. In my case, the Spirits I thought I was using isolated me from my friends, distorted my sexuality and drove me so far away from God He had to send out a “Rescue Party” and perform miracles to bring me back to Him and His Church and to confirm to me that He was the who He said He is…

I think Doctors’ description of the primary differences between Christianity and Paganism are pretty much spot on: From what I understand, In Paganism, you try to get the god, or goddess, to do something you need done. The Sacrifice is usually made by the group or the practitioner (I understand Paganism has myths which all societies have and had), but, this can’t be a treatise on them. Your paradise is here on earth, and any paradise in the afterlife is a continuation of the paradise you have here. OTOH, In Christianity, we try to conform our will to God’s will and then do what God wants us to do. and, The Sacrifice has been made by God Himself on the Cross at Calvary. We cooperate with God’s Grace in our lives in the Hope of a better Life to come.

I think I could say more on this later…

I know some of the brothers here may not be the most charitable representatives of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and others may have more Zeal than Knowledge. I can only ask you to be patient with them, and to try not judge the truth of the Gospel by your interactions with them.

In Christ, Michael

 

[3DOCTORS]

Ken:

I don’t believe Lost_One or anyone else here is talking about a Pagan, Neo or otherwise. I know from personal experience that a lot of Christians dabble in the Occult and New-Age Mysticism with no awareness about what they are doing… Most of these people have no clue how much power those things can have over them. I only know because my mother and Grandmother were both psychics, and I was “expected” to continue in the “family business”. It was really hard for me to throw out the Tarot, the Ephemeris and my mother’s other “Tools”. It took longer and more effort (and help) to get be freed from the “Divining & Prophesying Spirits” I had as part of “My inheritance”.

As these Spirits mimic Gifts of the Holy Spirit and often feel good and powerful to those who “use” them, It’s usually not until later that those who are under the influence of these Spirits notice their terrible effects on their lives. In my case, the Spirits I thought I was using isolated me from my friends, distorted my sexuality and drove me so far away from God He had to send out a “Rescue Party” and perform miracles to bring me back to Him and His Church and to confirm to me that He was the who He said He is…

Michael, you might be able to answer a question I’ve wondered about for some time - namely, is this at least in part why there are some card-readers and “psychics” out there who also claim to be Christian?

Shortly after my dad died, a friend of mine, who was at that time partly on her way back from new age beliefs and a lifestyle not compatible with the Catholicism of her upbringing, told me she’d gone to such a card reader. She insisted that this card reader was not like others. She told me the reader had said something about ME.

I told her I didn’t want to hear it. She started to defend the person and (I suppose) get me to want to hear this supposedly remarkable revelation. I got even madder, and hung up. I was absolutely livid. But after I’d calmed down, I went to see her and in the time between the phone call and then, she had repented of this and prayed for God’s forgiveness, realizing it was wrong. She never went to anyone like that again. And she asked my forgiveness, and I asked her forgiveness for my angry reaction, and we let it go and that was that.

But I wonder seeing your post if that’s one way that people fall into mixing Christianity and occult-like stuff.

 

[kenofken]

Michael, you might be able to answer a question I’ve wondered about for some time - namely, is this at least in part why there are some card-readers and “psychics” out there who also claim to be Christian?

Shortly after my dad died, a friend of mine, who was at that time partly on her way back from new age beliefs and a lifestyle not compatible with the Catholicism of her upbringing, told me she’d gone to such a card reader. She insisted that this card reader was not like others. She told me the reader had said something about ME.

I told her I didn’t want to hear it. She started to defend the person and (I suppose) get me to want to hear this supposedly remarkable revelation. I got even madder, and hung up. I was absolutely livid. But after I’d calmed down, I went to see her and in the time between the phone call and then, she had repented of this and prayed for God’s forgiveness, realizing it was wrong. She never went to anyone like that again. And she asked my forgiveness, and I asked her forgiveness for my angry reaction, and we let it go and that was that.

But I wonder seeing your post if that’s one way that people fall into mixing Christianity and occult-like stuff.

The truth is that there is a long tradition of Christian mystics, psychics and folk magic workers which long predates modern neo-paganism or anything which would be considered “New Age.” In fact, just about all of the stuff we associate with New Age was, if not invented, at least shaped into their modern form by people who self-identified as Christian (and in more than a few cases, Catholic). Astrologers were consulted by essentially all of the European monarchs down into fairly recent times. Ceremonial magick is thick with the invocation of angels and was practiced by people who were outwardly Christian at least until the turn of the 20th Century. The folk magic practiced for many centuries in England and down into Appalachia was done primarily by people who consider themselves Christian and are in many cases very devout in their own way. Doesn’t mean it squares with the Vatican or official Christendom, but it’s very much part of the fabric of what people believe and practice out there.