Friend is a budding Non-denom Pastor

[Orionthehunter]

I have a good childhood friend. He subscribes to religion that believes that all Catholics are damned to Hell. We have had two verbal altercations on the issue but in the name of peace (without formally discussing it) we are just avoiding the issue of religion.

As a person, he is a good man, husband and father. His devotion to Christ is sincere and well-intentioned. After we graduated from High School, when he was in college, he developed a drug (pot) and alcohol addiction. His sobriety is the result of his spiritual conversion. For this reason, I’ve been understanding and supportive of his faith journey as I can see the work of hte Holy Spirit in his continued sobriety (now almost 25 years)

As my Catholic life is the centerpiece of my life and his faith is his, this “elephant in the room that nobody talks about” hinders us really having a relationship but our childhood bonds are very strong. So strong that if a member of my family had an emergency and in need of someone immediately and were near him, I’d ask him to intervene.

Now to my dilemma. He sends out periodic emails to friends and family regarding his effort to “plant a new church” where he will be the full-time pastor (he currently is doing it part-time). His congregation is currently worshipping in rented space but are in the process of buying land for a new worship facility.

My non-response to these emails I know is deafening. I just can’t bring myself to respond as his theology is heresy. My Catholic heart wants to express my true feelings on his effort but I know it would fall on deaf ears (he’d attribute anything I say as being from Satan). Anything I say that appears to be positive would cause me great consternation such that I will wonder if it is sinful and possibly grave matter.

Is there anything that I can say to him as a friend that would also not appear to be condoning or encouraging to the theology dimensions of his effort?

 

[spiritblows]

It sounds to me as if he has not held back his opinion of the Catholic Church. So, it seems that the only thing that will keep your ‘friendship’ alive is if you meekly keep your mouth shut, meanwhile he is free to send annoying emails that he knows you disagree with.

I don’t know how old you are, but sometimes people with whom we’ve been friends with a long, long time develop philosophies and ideas that really become too much for the friendship to handle. In this case, a huge part of his life is totally out of harmony and in conflict with a huge part of your life.

In my opinion you should not hold back your opinions, and you should be prepared to let this friendship go. Remember, when one door closes, another opens. Probably there will be new and richer relationships in store for you down the road.

 

[Orionthehunter]

spiritblows:

It sounds to me as if he has not held back his opinion of the Catholic Church. So, it seems that the only thing that will keep your ‘friendship’ alive is if you meekly keep your mouth shut, meanwhile he is free to send annoying emails that he knows you disagree with.

I don’t know how old you are, but sometimes people with whom we’ve been friends with a long, long time develop philosophies and ideas that really become too much for the friendship to handle. In this case, a huge part of his life is totally out of harmony and in conflict with a huge part of your life.

In my opinion you should not hold back your opinions, and you should be prepared to let this friendship go. Remember, when one door closes, another opens. Probably there will be new and richer relationships in store for you down the road.

Let me add a little clarity. When we had our verbal altercation, I let him have it to the point that I considered his prayers and desire that I leave the Church to be from Satan and that his rejection of the Magisteriam to be a rejection of the fruits of the Magisterium (the Bible) rendering his faith nothing but one grounded in superstition. It was from this explosion that we no longer talk about religion.

Regarding his emails, they aren’t meant to antagonize. They are more like letters to his friends and family about his life. This is totally consistent w/ his social nature.

Finally, he is not just a friend that can be dismissed. His mother is a childhood friend of my mother and they talk regularly. His mother was a stay at home mom while my mom was a school teacher. His mother was “day care” when there wasn’t formal day care but I just went there and we walked to and from school every day until we could drive. In many ways, our relationship is like cousins (can pick your friends but not your family ). I call his parents Aunt and Uncle and they always stop to see me when they are in my city. His younger brother is my brother’s best friend.

Spirit, I appreciate your response. I don’t know if this clarification changes your advice. I’m really searching for advice so anything is appreciated. P.S. I’m 45.

 

[dulcissima]

I don’t think there is anything wrong in encouraging him to seek God in his life. I think you can respond positively, in a spirit of ecumenism, to his e-mails. If he responds back with anything negative to say about your church, then you can take that opportunity to politely correct him in his misunderstandings.

I kind of have a similar situation, coming from a Baptist family, most of whom grew up anti-Catholic. Me being Catholic, once they found out, pretty much was the elephant in the room no one wanted to talk about. It took a while, but I have become comfortable talking about my faith. For the most part, they still try not to bring it up, but I think that they have learned that Catholicisim is not quite what they thought.

I would just say emphasize what you do share. Don’t tear down his faith, but gently defend yours whenever the need arises.

 

[spiritblows]

Dear Orion,
Then, I would say that you either say nothing, or politely tell him that you’d rather not hear about his ‘church planting’ as it will rekindle the previous controversy that threatened your friendship. He needs to honor your mutual agreement not to discuss religion, in my opinion, and that would probably mean that he’d better not discuss his work situation with you. Otherwise you’ll need to keep your mouth shut.

I have friends with whom I have disagreements, for instance on abortion rights. We stay off the topic entirely, since we’ve agreed to disagree.

Maybe you ought to write him a frank email saying that you’d rather not hear about his job? Do you discuss your job with him?

 

[dulcissima]

Orionthehunter:

I let him have it to the point that I considered his prayers and desire that I leave the Church to be from Satan and that his rejection of the Magisteriam to be a rejection of the fruits of the Magisterium (the Bible) rendering his faith nothing but one grounded in superstition. It was from this explosion that we no longer talk about religion.

It sounds like you two still need to have a talk about this. Maybe if you started with an apology…Maybe you both went a little bit too far? Do you think the two of you have matured enough in your lives and in your faith that you could have a gentle discussion on Christianity? I know from your background in the RCIA and your own non-judgmental ways that you are probably capable of this, yes?

 

[Orionthehunter]

dulcissima:

It sounds like you two still need to have a talk about this. Maybe if you started with an apology…Maybe you both went a little bit too far? Do you think the two of you have matured enough in your lives and in your faith that you could have a gentle discussion on Christianity? I know from your background in the RCIA and your own non-judgmental ways that you are probably capable of this, yes?

I am very open to having this gentle conversation. However, I’m not confident that it would be fruitful. You have to keep in mind that he sincerely believes that I have absolutely no chance of going to Heaven as long as I remain Catholic.

I think that the conversation we had is behind us in that we have agreed to just not go there. But the essence of your advice is the heart of the matter. I feel that my silence regarding his efforts to plant this Church is percieved as un-Christian or un-caring which is not the case. I am grateful that his faith has helped him remain sober for about 25 years and can see how the Holy Spirit is with him in his life. He is truly a good man.

My struggle is how to express myself to him regarding his efforts to start this congregation without expressing agreement with his theology which is overt heresy. Additionally, I don’t approve of his plan to leave his secular job to do this full-time as it will only pull him deeper into the heresy as becomes his livlihood. It will only make him more resistent to at minimum finding a more Biblical theology and being less hostile to the Catholic Church.

 

[rayne89]

I would just ignore the church planting comments in the emails and pray for him. I’m quite sure he knows where you stand. Leave it in God’s hands.

 

[maryjk]

I, too, have friends that talked about “starting their own church.” They spent tons of time thinking about it, praying about and talking about it. They are members of the Church of Christ. When they asked me to pray for them, I did. I prayed that they would realize that they needed to come to the Catholic Church. When we spoke about it, I said something like, “I hope you make the right decision.” The right one being to come to the Catholic Church.

Maybe you need to pray for him, to come home. Tell him that you hope he comes to the right decision. There is no reason to tell him to stop sending the emails. Just don’t spend time reading them. If I understand it, they are emails that have been send to many people, not just to you.

When my friends talk about being Christian vs. Catholic, I ask them if they really want to go there. Most do not and will change the subject. If they do, I can direct them to the many wonders of the Catholic Church. They can learn or think I am on my way to hell. Either way, we move on.

 

[spiritblows]

rayne and maryk both give excellent advise. Vague responses like “I’ll be praying for you”, etc, sound like a good plan.

Regarding emails that are sent to a huge list of people, I think internet ettiquette leaves us off the hook as to a personal response to them. I put them in the catagory of Christmas letters or forwards. Not high priority items…

 

[kage_ar]

dulcissima:

I would just say emphasize what you do share. Don’t tear down his faith, but gently defend yours whenever the need arises.

AMEN to this! A soft answer turns away wrath.

Tell him that you pray for him every day (and do it).

 

[theguidedheart]

spiritblows:

I don’t know how old you are, but sometimes people with whom we’ve been friends with a long, long time develop philosophies and ideas that really become too much for the friendship to handle. In this case, a huge part of his life is totally out of harmony and in conflict with a huge part of your life.

This is VERY insightful I think… it is a bridge I am coming close to crossing myself with one of my own friends who has some seriously dilluded thoughts about God and life… and I would agree with you 100%…long-lasting friendships often split into their own paths throughout circumstances in your life, especially when it involves religous faith, and I would say that if it gets to the point that that frienship is causing you mental frustration and distracting you from your faith, or even preventing you from growing in your faith, that choosing your faith is MUCH more important. You can only help people so far, but if they don’t want to walk with you, you gotta leave them behind. Of course I am saying this without confronting my own friend, but I have a feeling that its going to come down to him, or God, and there is just no option, God is going to win, the Catholic Church is going to win, it is ultimately what is best for our soul.

 

[theguidedheart]

Orionthehunter:

My struggle is how to express myself to him regarding his efforts to start this congregation without expressing agreement with his theology which is overt heresy. Additionally, I don’t approve of his plan to leave his secular job to do this full-time as it will only pull him deeper into the heresy as becomes his livlihood. It will only make him more resistent to at minimum finding a more Biblical theology and being less hostile to the Catholic Church.

Well, in addition to my previous comment, I would say in response to this, that God knows much more than WE think we know about ourselves, and fortunately God’s plan is always in the works, even when it may not look like it… I would say as I did before, just not to let this disagreement set YOU off the path, and with the same advice as some previous people, pray for him, while not butting heads, but also not giving into his ideas. God will most likely set in motion a path for him that leads him right to the Catholic faith in time… I am a convert myself, and looking back at what lead to my conversion, it was a 7 year process, and at the start of that process, it looked like anything other than a walk towards God, and towards Catholicism, but it was there!

 

[TheHem]

Orionthehunter, you said:

My struggle is how to express myself to him regarding his efforts to start this congregation without expressing agreement with his theology which is overt heresy. Additionally, I don’t approve of his plan to leave his secular job to do this full-time as it will only pull him deeper into the heresy as becomes his livlihood. It will only make him more resistent to at minimum finding a more Biblical theology and being less hostile to the Catholic Church.

You may not approve of his plan but does it nullify the plan of God? When I went through the RCIA process and entered the church, it brought so many thoughts to my mind. Why was it that my life had gone the path that it had? Why didn’t God jus let me become involved with the Catholic Church from the beginning? It was a battle that I could very much sense in the Spirit. One of the team members of the RCIA that led this group was so vital in my conversion process. And I share this quote that she gave me and I’ve held dear ever since. “God writes straight with crooked lines” I began to realize and found value in my faith walk in the way that it has unfolded being involved in non-denom. & AG churches. There is value in these experiences. God’s timing is always perfect. He’s so merciful and patient with us beyond what I believe we can fully grasp apart from us being in Heaven. Just another thought, could this be the enemy causing you to struggle in mind & spirit about this whole matter? Christ said “Peace I give to you, not as the world gives…” right?

Believe me, I can relate to this situation in more ways than one. My prayers are lifted up for you & this dear friend and all involved: up:

 

[Seminarian_Matt]

Remember that we shall be judged also on our omissions. In that case, I ask you to talk with him when he sends you the messages and talks with you. There are many books I suggest to Protestants to learn more about Catholicism. I would suggest trying to continue to bring the Truth to him. As Blessed Mother Teresa said, God doesn’t ask us to be successful but rather faithful.

 

[Smber2c]

As “Seminarian Matt” said, we are judged on our omissions as well. I’m not saying you will be damned for silence on this, but you should be trying to have whatever positive effect is possible (and it sounds like you are trying ).

On this earlier quote on God’s plan being both complex and mysterious:

You may not approve of his plan but does it nullify the plan of God? When I went through the RCIA process and entered the church, it brought so many thoughts to my mind. Why was it that my life had gone the path that it had? Why didn’t God just let me become involved with the Catholic Church from the beginning? It was a battle that I could very much sense in the Spirit. One of the team members of the RCIA that led this group was so vital in my conversion process. And I share this quote that she gave me and I’ve held dear ever since. “God writes straight with crooked lines” I began to realize and found value in my faith walk in the way that it has unfolded being involved in non-denom. & AG churches. There is value in these experiences. God’s timing is always perfect. He’s so merciful and patient with us beyond what I believe we can fully grasp apart from us being in Heaven. Just another thought, could this be the enemy causing you to struggle in mind & spirit about this whole matter? Christ said “Peace I give to you, not as the world gives…” right?

I just want to offer an opinion.

I know that God makes great good out of everything in the world. But just because God wrote straight with a crooked line in all of our lives, that doesn’t mean it was His plan from the start. God’s Master plan doesn’t ever include our choosing sin, and thus every second He remakes the plan because someone failed somewhere.

C.S. Lewis wrote (in The Last Divorce, I believe) about how once a soul enters Heaven he will be able to look back and see just how every choice right or wrong was on touched by God and used to accomplish the salvatoin that he then enjoys. But he cautioned that one can never anticipate this sort of vision, because in doing so one can rationalize any sort of actions and will end up in hell.

If over the next several years this man hates the Church, God may find windows to his soul to pull him back to the full truth. But we can’t presume that lies will better serve a person’s salvation than truth.

 

[Sandi]

I would just ignore the church planting comments in the emails and pray for him. I’m quite sure he knows where you stand. Leave it in God’s hands.

Good advice; sometimes you just have to keep your mouth shut and trust the situation in God’s hands.

 

[Orionthehunter]

As “Seminarian Matt” said, we are judged on our omissions as well. I’m not saying you will be damned for silence on this, but you should be trying to have whatever positive effect is possible (and it sounds like you are trying ).

On this earlier quote on God’s plan being both complex and mysterious:

I just want to offer an opinion.

I know that God makes great good out of everything in the world. But just because God wrote straight with a crooked line in all of our lives, that doesn’t mean it was His plan from the start. God’s Master plan doesn’t ever include our choosing sin, and thus every second He remakes the plan because someone failed somewhere.

C.S. Lewis wrote (in The Last Divorce, I believe) about how once a soul enters Heaven he will be able to look back and see just how every choice right or wrong was on touched by God and used to accomplish the salvatoin that he then enjoys. But he cautioned that one can never anticipate this sort of vision, because in doing so one can rationalize any sort of actions and will end up in hell.

If over the next several years this man hates the Church, God may find windows to his soul to pull him back to the full truth. But we can’t presume that lies will better serve a person’s salvation than truth.

Good advice; sometimes you just have to keep your mouth shut and trust the situation in God’s hands.

Two pieces of good advice but in conflict. What to do?

Normally, one could take the advice and just be quiet but one must remember that our conversations often include his comments that he loves me (good thing) and is praying for my conversion (good thing) because unless I leave the Church I will go to Hell. To remain silent is more than an ommission. There is an implication of agreement if I thank him for his prayers that I become a heretic. If I say nothing, I express ingratitude for prayers. If I respond by saying, don’t make that prayer for me, it presents an attitude of arrogance that I don’t need God’s Providence.

And to respond to him as he is quite zealous in his religion with anything that implies he is wrong will drive a wedge between us. He is quick to distance himself from what he sees as from Satan. The last time it happened, he ceased conversation w/ me for a long time. But, as evidence that his love for me is real, after a time, he began to respond to emails, things softened (love is a wonderful thing) and it is back to “normal.” I am going to Hell and he prays for me.

 

[rwoehmke]

I assume that since you came through RCIA thatyou and your friend grew up as non-Catholics of some sort. While he is a heretic, the problem is far different than if he had been a practicing Catholic and split away. He probably does not see himself as a heretic, but as a faith filled Christian.

You are the one who chose to leave your childhood faith behind and become a Catholic, and a Roman one at that. Why are you surprised at his reaction?

You both obviously value the friendship and try not to do anything to put it in jeopardy, including allowing the elephant to be in the room with you. There are times to talk about the elephant and times not to. That is determined by what you believe will be accomplished by talking. In this case I think not much, but I am not the judge of that. You are.

He knows you are a Catholic and if you are close he must be able to observe how you live that Faith with no words being necessary. It is important that you try to live up to what it means to be a good Catholic. If indeed Satan has a hold on you as he says, he will be expecting some pretty bad behavior. When it doesn’t come to pass. Guess what?The advice to hold him in prayer is good advice. To tell him so without explaining why is also good advice.

I think if you do that, no one, but an intolerant individual would fault you for committing a sin of omission. As they say in cards,“There is a time to hold’em and a time to fold’em.” It requires listening to God in prayer and good judgement as to when and what you do in laying out your cards.

 

[Orionthehunter]

I assume that since you came through RCIA thatyou and your friend grew up as non-Catholics of some sort. While he is a heretic, the problem is far different than if he had been a practicing Catholic and split away. He probably does not see himself as a heretic, but as a faith filled Christian.

You are the one who chose to leave your childhood faith behind and become a Catholic, and a Roman one at that. Why are you surprised at his reaction?

You both obviously value the friendship and try not to do anything to put it in jeopardy, including allowing the elephant to be in the room with you. There are times to talk about the elephant and times not to. That is determined by what you believe will be accomplished by talking. In this case I think not much, but I am not the judge of that. You are.

He knows you are a Catholic and if you are close he must be able to observe how you live that Faith with no words being necessary. It is important that you try to live up to what it means to be a good Catholic. If indeed Satan has a hold on you as he says, he will be expecting some pretty bad behavior. When it doesn’t come to pass. Guess what?The advice to hold him in prayer is good advice. To tell him so without explaining why is also good advice.

I think if you do that, no one, but an intolerant individual would fault you for committing a sin of omission. As they say in cards,“There is a time to hold’em and a time to fold’em.” It requires listening to God in prayer and good judgement as to when and what you do in laying out your cards.

FYI: I am a cradle Catholic and my primary association w/ RCIA has been on our parish RCIA team. We have known each other since we were babies. His families faith tradition is Methodist but he is now what he refers to a member of a Bible based faith community. I would call it a denomination of one or two loosely related faith communities.