Friend is a budding Non-denom Pastor

[rayne89]

Normally, one could take the advice and just be quiet but one must remember that our conversations often include his comments that he loves me (good thing) and is praying for my conversion (good thing) because unless I leave the Church I will go to Hell.

Wow, I would have a hard time continuing a friendship with someone who says things like that. Maybe you should reply “I pray the same thing…for you.” Really you must have deep ties to this person to keep a friendship with someone that is damning you to hell.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Wow, I would have a hard time continuing a friendship with someone who says things like that. Maybe you should reply “I pray the same thing…for you.” Really you must have deep ties to this person to keep a friendship with someone that is damning you to hell.

I’ve known him since we were babies. Despite his errant views regarding our faith, he definitely is touched by Christ as his love is apparent even when saying these things. His lack of hate is truly inspired. I’m sure you’d have no problem loving him as well. He would make you mad for sure and sometimes separation is required so we don’t kill each other in anger .

But, he is not damning me to Hell. He desires me to go to Heaven. He is just expressing out of his love his errant belief that my faith is an impediment to my Salvation.

 

[Renton405]

Let me add a little clarity. When we had our verbal altercation, I let him have it to the point that I considered his prayers and desire that I leave the Church to be from Satan and that his rejection of the Magisteriam to be a rejection of the fruits of the Magisterium (the Bible) rendering his faith nothing but one grounded in superstition. It was from this explosion that we no longer talk about religion.

Regarding his emails, they aren’t meant to antagonize. They are more like letters to his friends and family about his life. This is totally consistent w/ his social nature.

Finally, he is not just a friend that can be dismissed. His mother is a childhood friend of my mother and they talk regularly. His mother was a stay at home mom while my mom was a school teacher. His mother was “day care” when there wasn’t formal day care but I just went there and we walked to and from school every day until we could drive. In many ways, our relationship is like cousins (can pick your friends but not your family ). I call his parents Aunt and Uncle and they always stop to see me when they are in my city. His younger brother is my brother’s best friend.

Spirit, I appreciate your response. I don’t know if this clarification changes your advice. I’m really searching for advice so anything is appreciated. P.S. I’m 45.

These people tend to not know much about christian history… In fact many protestants dont know much about christian history, and that the bible they read is 7 books short… they are totally ignorant of the Catholic Church… hopefully God will look past your heretic friend…

Does he know that the protestant faith was started only 500 years ago??

To claim that Catholics are going to hell is to claim that God did it wrong for the first 1500 years. It would also make Martin Luther the true Savior and not Christ and his church… So there is a horrible contradiction in terms and it suggests that God made a mistake with his church thus ruining his omnipotentence and infallibility…So not only is it horribly insulting to Catholics, but it just adds on more damnation to the protestant because he is directly insulting God’s first and original church, thus insulting God/Christ himself…

Talk to him about St. Ignatius, who was a friend and dicsiple of the apostle John. St. Ignatius always said that we must stay connected to the bishop and not break off. Talk to him about Matthew 16. If he sends you an annoying email send him back some texts on the ECF and scripture. You can find them easily on the net now…

 

[gardenswithkids]

…Normally, one could take the advice and just be quiet but one must remember that our conversations often include his comments that he loves me (good thing) and is praying for my conversion (good thing) because unless I leave the Church I will go to Hell. To remain silent is more than an ommission. There is an implication of agreement if I thank him for his prayers that I become a heretic. If I say nothing, I express ingratitude for prayers. If I respond by saying, don’t make that prayer for me, it presents an attitude of arrogance that I don’t need God’s Providence.

And to respond to him as he is quite zealous in his religion with anything that implies he is wrong will drive a wedge between us. He is quick to distance himself from what he sees as from Satan. …

Can you respond with something like, “Thank you for your praying that I don’t go to hell. I don’t want to go to hell either. I know you pray that I leave the Catholic Church out of love, but you must know by now I don’t believe that Catholics go to hell simply for being Catholic. Let’s trust God will hear the prayers of your heart for me and listen to your pleas to save me from hell. I pray for you too.” (Sounds like the prayers of his heart are that you don’t go to hell–and the prayers for you to leave the Church are only made because he thinks Catholics end up in hell.)

 

[PaulGH]

When your friend sends out e-mails about his church-planting activities, perhaps a response along the following lines would be appropriate:

“I rejoice at your faith in Christ, and at the many blessings that He has given you. I also rejoice in your efforts to lead others to know Christ. As you probably know, I do disagree with some of your beliefs and methods, just as you disagree with some of mine. And because of these disagreements, I may not be able to support you wholeheartedly in your church-planting and pastoring activities. But still please know that you are in my prayers, and that I fully support your ultimate goal of leading people to Christ.”

My two cents anyway.

Paul

 

[PaulGH]

Also, one more piece of advice, for what it’s worth: If you can talk to him about religion without getting into an argument, then do so, maybe on a semi-regular basis. Don’t be afraid to talk about areas where you disagree, as long as you can both do so charitably. But also make sure to really talk up the areas where you agree. Talk about the power of prayer in your life, what blessings God has given you, and things like that. Your example of your own faith just might be the best way to get him to see that, gee, some Catholics actually act is if they might be Christian! Who would have thunk such a thing?

 

[Teeliumtrozzle]

I think you should ask him to stop sending emails and say that you are a Catholic and you always will be, and you respect his faith, and you just want him to respect yours.This is fair, and I’m sure it will work.BTW, what religion is he? I didn’t know there was a type of Christian who thinks Catholics are damned.This is definitely NOT TRUE.I think its probably better if you and your friend use the…‘golden rule’ and dont speak about faith.

 

[christcnection1]

Link him up with a former Evangelical or Non-Denom pastor who is now in the Catholic faith. There are hundreds of them.

www.chnetwork.org

 

[RobNY]

Let me preface it by this-- I have gotten into an argument with a friend over a religious issue before, and I understand it is painful. I look back and I’m embarassed, because I could, quite frankly, have done better and been more Christ-like. Mea culpa. Jesus, forgive me.

I think Renton and PaulGH’s advice is interesting. These are two things that really are essential.

One is of course talking to him. If Jesus is such a big part of both of your lives then you two need to talk to each other. Say to him something like, man, I know we’ve argued and we disagree, but we both believe in Jesus, so let’s try to have little conversations with each other and become more comfortable talking about religion with one another-- it’s too big of an issue for two people who are as good friends as we are to ignore. Make rules that no one’s allowed to raise their voice. I’m not sure how realistic this is, but tell me what you think.

Second, I liked Renton’s idea to introduce him to St. Ignatius. Catholic.com has a cheap copy of a book with lots of the Apostolic Fathers. Tell him that St. Ignatius was an early Christian, really close to the Apostles, and that you’d appreciate if he read it. What’s important is that this may broaden his horizons, perhaps make him a bit uncomfortable, and make him think more critically about Catholicism.

-Rob

P.S. If I’m nuts, tell me. I don’t want to make things worse.

 

[otjm]

It is often unguided enthusiasm and a need to be right that causes us, when someone wants a drink of water, to shove a firehose down their throat and turn it on full blast.

I am not going to argue about your friend’s heresy or heresies; we both agree that some of the things he believes in are contrary to our understanding of the Gospel and our understanding of the Church with 2000 years of guidance by the Holy Spirit.

But a good part of the difficulties you seem to be having is a need to be right, and an inability to express your religious understanding without using a firehose.

And while we are at it, you seem to be forgetting that there are probably more things the two of you do agree about in religion than there are about things you disagree on. I would hazard a guess that if you sat down and asked him about his beliefs using the Creed - Nicene or Apostles, doesn’t matter too much which - and could shut your mouth and actually listen to his answers, you would find that he loves the Lord; that he really cares about salvation - for himself, for others, and for you - and that you share common beliefs, and heaven forbid, you might even be able to pray together. Stop getting caught in a judgemental mode (the heresy bit) and find out what you actually believe in, tell him you will keep him in your prayers and ask the HolySpirit’s guidance on what he does, and quit using a hammer to beat his beliefs into the form you want.

I do not suggest in the least that you do not defend your faith; but there are more ways to do that than there are to skin a cat; and using a dull knife is not recommended for either procedure. And I would hazard a guess your knife wasn’t even dull… I have a number of friends who are not Catholic; some of them are evangelical. While I won’t back down to any of them, I find that courtesy, calmness, lack of judgementalism, and a willingness to share the Faith in bits works far better than an “I’m right and you are just too stupid to get it” approach. Taking one specific issue and getting them some information seems to work better than a hardened stance. I have often used the question of where they got their information - not challenging, but asking in an interested manner - and then quietly say that I understood their dilemma, and if my Church actually taught that, I would leave; but as a matter of fact, that is not what we teach (and then tell them, and show them what we do teach). I also use the fact that many people think we keep things secret; and I show how open we actually are with what we teach. I never say they are right about a theological point if I know or believe they are wrong; but rather, that God judges the heart.

And ultimately, isn’t that what the Church teaches?

 

[Bishopite]

I have a good childhood friend. He subscribes to religion that believes that all Catholics are damned to Hell. We have had two verbal altercations on the issue but in the name of peace (without formally discussing it) we are just avoiding the issue of religion.

As a person, he is a good man, husband and father. His devotion to Christ is sincere and well-intentioned. After we graduated from High School, when he was in college, he developed a drug (pot) and alcohol addiction. His sobriety is the result of his spiritual conversion. For this reason, I’ve been understanding and supportive of his faith journey as I can see the work of hte Holy Spirit in his continued sobriety (now almost 25 years)

As my Catholic life is the centerpiece of my life and his faith is his, this “elephant in the room that nobody talks about” hinders us really having a relationship but our childhood bonds are very strong. So strong that if a member of my family had an emergency and in need of someone immediately and were near him, I’d ask him to intervene.

Now to my dilemma. He sends out periodic emails to friends and family regarding his effort to “plant a new church” where he will be the full-time pastor (he currently is doing it part-time). His congregation is currently worshipping in rented space but are in the process of buying land for a new worship facility.

My non-response to these emails I know is deafening. I just can’t bring myself to respond as his theology is heresy. My Catholic heart wants to express my true feelings on his effort but I know it would fall on deaf ears (he’d attribute anything I say as being from Satan). Anything I say that appears to be positive would cause me great consternation such that I will wonder if it is sinful and possibly grave matter.

Is there anything that I can say to him as a friend that would also not appear to be condoning or encouraging to the theology dimensions of his effort?

I was raised as a Baptist who thought Catholics were also going to hell because they preached another gospel (boy was I wrong). My brother had the same view as I did. He was a pastoral intern at a large Baptist church and during seminary had several offers to be a full-time senior pastor but he turned them down. During his time in seminary and in his Baptist church, over a number of years reading and studying many issues dividing Protestants he actually read a few Catholic authors simply because he saw within Protestantism there wasn’t unity in doctrine (John 17:21) nor any final arbiter to decide who was correctly dividing the word of God (2 Tim 2:15). That someone had to be correct.
The point I’m trying to convey is that it is my prayer that your friend, if he is honest, will one day see the plethora of issues Protestants (via sola scriptura) are divided by and it can become very frustrating to a pastor. I’m sure your pastor friend will attempt to draw Catholics out of the church but with prayer he may meet some that know their faith and can show him that his church is a product of the reformation; and prior to the reformation who were the Christians if not Catholics?? It is a shame and a naive denial of the historical reality of the Catholic church being the first and true Christian church from Christ.
Finally, you may want to send a link to him via a friend of this Catholic answers forum. If he gets involved in the discussions he will learn that his position he thought was solid is built on sandy ground.

 

[scylla]

I wouldn’t shy away from talking about religion at all. You don’t necessarily need to attack him, why not stress your love of Jesus.

Study why the Mass is the only true Christian worship.
(if you would like help on this feel free to PM me)

Once you understand that then you can stress how you love to worship Jesus and this should make him uncomfortable once he sees that he is trying to work his way into heaven.

He might be very dedicated to his cause because he would feel like he is doing God’s will and would be very busy doing it while contradicting his theology. This makes no sense but no non-catholic ever realizes it or else they become Catholic. He has to intentionally suppress his intellect.

Your job is to awaken it and pretty much put a bug in his bonnet.
Talk about your love of Jesus, offer to read the Bible with him, give him Bible study aids. (if he honestly studies the Bible he will become Catholic, if he honestly studies history he will become Catholic, if he honestly examines Catholicism he will become Catholic) So share it with him.

You don’t have to talk about his faith at all as it really will just waste your time and lead to arguements. Talk about Christian love of Jesus and seek ways to share the riches of Christianity with him.

To ignore him or the subject is to sin by omission and be cowardly. You don’t have to attack him or debate (that can just be feeding your ego), but you are required to share the good news with him.

In Christ
Scylla