Friend not observing 1hr fast before Eucharist

[Flopfoot]

I saw my friend drinking diet coke just before mass began yesterday, so I told her she isn’t supposed to eat or drink except water for 1hr before recieving the Eucharist. She said it was because she had to lead the singing at the mass, she needed to drink the coke for her voice, and water wouldn’t do. She said she thought that “God would prefer her to be able to sing at the mass than to follow that rule”

1st question - Is that a good enough reason to break the 1hr fast rule? (I’m pretty sure that it isn’t, but just checking)

After mass I spoke to her again (she did recieve the Eucharist). I said to her, I’d be surprised if needing to sing was a good enough reason to break the rule, you should go and double check it. She said no, she doesn’t care, it’s just the Church’s rule not God’s rule.

Thing is that she always has been a bit of a ‘liberal’ or ‘cafeteria’ Catholic like that, and we have had disagreements on things before.

2nd question - Should I try to talk to her about this again? I reckon she’s got a terrible attitude problem. Thing is I’m pretty sure she would never listen to me…

If I was to talk to her I guess this is what I’d say (in brief)

• She’s not obliged to recieve every week, only once a year. So if she really needs to drink the coke then she can just not recieve the Eucharist that week, and there’d be nothing wrong with that. Not a hard rule to keep.
• Does she think she has a God-given right to recieve the Eucharist? She can’t consecrate it herself, God has given priests the authority for that. It is the Church that has preserved the tradition of the Eucharist and it can certainly make rules about who partakes in the sacrament since the Eucharist has been ‘entrusted’ to the Church.

3rd question (relating to that) - If an EM saw her drinking the coke, could / should they refuse to give her the Eucharist if she lines up to recieve it? If that is true then it would drive the point home - she must follow the rules if she wants to recieve.

-Why does she even think she has to go to mass each week? That’s the Church’s rule not God’s rule. It still counts.

-Basically, that the Church is not just a bunch of people telling her what to do, that it is guided by the Spirit, it is more than the sum of it’s parts. That God said ‘The gates of hell will not prevail against [the church]’, not that the gates of hell will not prevail against her.

How does this sound? I know I have to fix my phrasing and stuff but I reckon she needs to fix her head. Anyway, what do you think?

 

[Melanie01]

According to the rubics the person has behaved in a sacrilegious way and committed an offence against God…a mortal sin if done so with full knowledge and willfulness.

 

[Flopfoot]

Thing is if I say that she will just say that I have no authority to tell her that she has mortally sinned. In fact now I remember that at one point she said “when you are God you can tell me not to drink coke before recieveing the Eucharist”.

Even if I show her an official church document she is unlikely to accept it )-:

Hmm, but maybe it isn’t full knowledge then, I’m sure she doesn’t think it is a grave matter… (this person really ticks me off but I don’t want them to end up in hell…)

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I very much doubt that The Lord will consign her to Hell for all enternity for breaking the fast…when one ponders the terrible offences in this world against God and His Goodness…the terrible offences against our brothers and sisters that exist in this world and equally offensive to God and His Goodness…breaking the fast does appear a minor matter…but this of course depends on what is in her deepest heart which only The Lord knows … even she may not be aware of her real motivation and this can happen. I mean she could even be on some medication but not want to mention it for some reason.

I am reminded of two things:

Book of Samuel somewhere: “Man judges by appearances, but The Lord reads the heart”

also: “Before you remove the splinter in the eye of your brother remember the log in your own eye” …or very similar words. I’m not good at all at remembering reference details but will seach for them if necessary.

I’ll see what I can dig up in the CCatechism and other sources on the matter…may take some time though.

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Had a quick look but not found anything relevant as yet but am reminded of the criteria to commit a mortal sin:

Grave matter
Full knowledge
Full consent

In other words the person must know that it is grave matter and constitutes a mortal sin condemning one to Hell, and with this full knowledge in mind, consent to and commit that grave matter or sin.

In other words, if she does not believe it is a mortal sin, then it is not. Her conscience is not properly formed it could be said, but is this through her own fault?

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi there again Flopfoot…the issue is not at all simple but complex I think…I hope this post in some way anyway may be of some help.

Quoting Flopfoot

I saw my friend drinking diet coke just before mass began yesterday, so I told her she isn’t supposed to eat or drink except water for 1hr before recieving the Eucharist. She said it was because she had to lead the singing at the mass, she needed to drink the coke for her voice, and water wouldn’t do. She said she thought that “God would prefer her to be able to sing at the mass than to follow that rule”

Seems to me on reading the above, that she can sing at Mass but not go to Holy Communion. It is a complex question and I think she needs to refer it to a priest and fully explain her circumstanceds.

1st question - Is that a good enough reason to break the 1hr fast rule? (I’m pretty sure that it isn’t, but just checking)

I think a priest may need to answer this.

After mass I spoke to her again (she did recieve the Eucharist). I said to her, I’d be surprised if needing to sing was a good enough reason to break the rule, you should go and double check it. She said no, she doesn’t care, it’s just the Church’s rule not God’s rule.

Well, rightly or wrongly, she seems to have made a choice. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ who is God.

Thing is that she always has been a bit of a ‘liberal’ or ‘cafeteria’ Catholic like that, and we have had disagreements on things before.

Seems to me you have another one.

2nd question - Should I try to talk to her about this again? I reckon she’s got a terrible attitude problem. Thing is I’m pretty sure she would never listen to me…

If you’re sure that nothing postive will result by talking to her, if it were me I would simply pray for her and make little acts of penance on her behalf that God will show her the light.

If I was to talk to her I guess this is what I’d say (in brief)

• She’s not obliged to recieve every week, only once a year. So if she really needs to drink the coke then she can just not recieve the Eucharist that week, and there’d be nothing wrong with that. Not a hard rule to keep.

Sounds an excellent idea to me. She could sing and not receive Holy Communion say once a month or twice a month and for the other one or two weeks abstain from diet coke and go to Holy Communion, I am postive the choir and Father will completely understand.

• Does she think she has a God-given right to recieve the Eucharist? She can’t consecrate it herself, God has given priests the authority for that. It is the Church that has preserved the tradition of the Eucharist and it can certainly make rules about who partakes in the sacrament since the Eucharist has been ‘entrusted’ to the Church.

At the end of this Post is a link to an article on fasting before Holy Communion that may prove of help to you in talking with her.

3rd question (relating to that) - If an EM saw her drinking the coke, could / should they refuse to give her the Eucharist if she lines up to recieve it? If that is true then it would drive the point home - she must follow the rules if she wants to recieve.

I don’t know the answer to this.

-Why does she even think she has to go to mass each week? That’s the Church’s rule not God’s rule. It still counts.

Only she can answer that .

-Basically, that the Church is not just a bunch of people telling her what to do, that it is guided by the Spirit, it is more than the sum of it’s parts. That God said ‘The gates of hell will not prevail against [the church]’, not that the gates of hell will not prevail against her.

The Church is the mystical body of Christ: “whatsoever you shalt loose upon earth, it is loosed also in Heaven and whatsoever you shalt bind upon earth, it is bound also in Heaven”

How does this sound? I know I have to fix my phrasing and stuff but I reckon she needs to fix her head. Anyway, what do you think?

I think you need to weigh up how important your friendship with her is and is it worth alienating her in that if you alienate her will she loose the one person who really cares about her and her soul.
Only you can make the decision.

It is a complex matter I think and she really needs the advice of a preist…but if she has made up her mind on the matter, will you be able to change it? and again only you can answer this.

Here is the link to the article on fasting:

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0223.html

God’s Blessing on you and your friend and your decisions.

Barb

 

[Kay_Cee]

So God cares more about the sound of her voice than He does obedience to the Church he established?

 

[Walking_Home]

BarbaraTherese:

Had a quick look but not found anything relevant as yet but am reminded of the criteria to commit a mortal sin:

Grave matter
Full knowledge
Full consent

In other words the person must know that it is grave matter and constitutes a mortal sin condemning one to Hell, and with this full knowledge in mind, consent to and commit that grave matter or sin.

In other words, if she does not believe it is a mortal sin, then it is not. Her conscience is not properly formed it could be said, but is this through her own fault?

Barb

With this reasoning one could commit all kinds of mortal sins couldn’t we. All we have to say is, I don’t believe in what the Church teaches.

It is not what we “choose” to believe, but what our Lord has instructed us to believe thru his Church.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Flopfoot:

I saw my friend drinking diet coke just before mass began yesterday, so I told her she isn’t supposed to eat or drink except water for 1hr before recieving the Eucharist. She said it was because she had to lead the singing at the mass, she needed to drink the coke for her voice, and water wouldn’t do. She said she thought that “God would prefer her to be able to sing at the mass than to follow that rule”

1st question - Is that a good enough reason to break the 1hr fast rule? (I’m pretty sure that it isn’t, but just checking)

2nd question - Should I try to talk to her about this again? I reckon she’s got a terrible attitude problem. Thing is I’m pretty sure she would never listen to me…

3rd question (relating to that) - If an EM saw her drinking the coke, could / should they refuse to give her the Eucharist if she lines up to recieve it? If that is true then it would drive the point home - she must follow the rules if she wants to recieve.

-Why does she even think she has to go to mass each week?

No, its not a good enough reason. She should simply not receive at that Mass and if she wants to receive Holy Communion observe the fast and return at another Mass time where she won’t be singing. It is not so much what she is doing but the attitude she is doing it with.

If you do not think she will listen then don’t speak to here again about it.

An EMHC would not refuse her Holy Communion anyone approaching Holy Communion in public cannot be refused.

Why does she even think she has to go to mass each week?

To sing of course!

 

[maklavan]

Melanie01:

According to the rubics the person has behaved in a sacrilegious way and committed an offence against God…a mortal sin if done so with full knowledge and willfulness.

You are,of course, an an expert with degrees in theology? Does not St James tell us not to judge others? In our world, people are being murdered, millions of children being phsically and economically abused, millions of people dying of starvation because of human greed, and you are concerning yourself with a minor regulation.? This is an issue of discipline, not grve moral transgression. One must keep a sense of proportion. In any case, the one hour fast is a directive, not a prescriptive ruling. It does not apply, for example, to people over 60, or the sick or infirm and their carers.having said that, it would seem odd for a person to be drinking coke to ease the vocal chords. gentle education is called for, not threats of hell.

 

[paramedicgirl]

BarbaraTherese:

Had a quick look but not found anything relevant as yet but am reminded of the criteria to commit a mortal sin:

Grave matter
Full knowledge
Full consent

In other words the person must know that it is grave matter and constitutes a mortal sin condemning one to Hell, and with this full knowledge in mind, consent to and commit that grave matter or sin.

In other words, if she does not believe it is a mortal sin, then it is not. Her conscience is not properly formed it could be said, but is this through her own fault?

Barb

The sin of sacrilege is grave matter. This woman has full knowledge of the Church’s ruling on fasting before Communion, and she freely consents to breaking the fast. Looks like it can’t be disguised under the “Oh, I don’t believe it’s a mortal sin” copout.

Disobedience to the Church is disobedience to God, who gave the Church full authority. Proper disposition for receiving Communion seems to be lacking with this woman.

 

[m134e5]

BarbaraTherese:

In other words, if she does not believe it is a mortal sin, then it is not.

I wouldn’t bet on that! If the misinformation is innocent, that is one thing, but it doesn’t sound like it is innocent in this case. A lot of people don’t believe abortion is wrong either- they will when they see the child they killed (or condoned the killing of) risen from the dead among the martyrs on judgement day, and Jesus asks them to explain themselves. A lot of people don’t believe in hell- they will when they get there.

 

[m134e5]

What good singer drinks diet coke before singing anyway? You’re supposed to drink water before you sing.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Seems to me that in speaking with her, you have reminded her tactfully. The rest is up to her. She’s not stupid; she knows the rules as well as anyone.

At this point, let it lie… myob… and, as another poster suggested, pray quietly for her and do little acts of mortification… don’t tell her… do them anonymously…

Pray to St. Monica for intervention and intercession.

 

[Ted_CharlotteNC]

m134e5:

What good singer drinks diet coke before singing anyway? You’re supposed to drink water before you sing.

This is my kind of Logic.

Sounds like a voluntary grave matter if she willingly goes against a known church teaching, doesn’t matter what it is. The rules are there for a reason.

There is a soft pedal solution, make a small wager (lunch or something). Jointly approach the priest and say “We have a friend…” Go from there.

 

[m134e5]

maklavan:

Does not St James tell us not to judge others? In our world, people are being murdered, millions of children being phsically and economically abused, millions of people dying of starvation because of human greed, and you are concerning yourself with a minor regulation?

Sacrilige against the Eucharist is no “minor regulation”. It is tempting to think the crimes we can see with our own eyes are more serious than those we can’t, but it is not so. The Mass is a the most important thing we have. There are millions of suffering souls who do not have what we have- we should be eternally greatful for this awesome gift, and we are rightfully angry when someone is indifferent towards it- especially if they have as visible a role as the cantor.

Now I would never tell the person to her face how ungreatful she is, or that she is going to hell. That is what St. James was saying when he told us not to judge others. Instructing the ignorant and admonishing the sinner are spiritual works of mercy. We have a duty to follow through with that.

 

[DianJo]

Print off the article from the link in post #6 and give it to her and leave it at that. Don’t discuss it with her or try to convince her that what it says is true.

When she reads it, she’ll understand and then it will be between her and God. You did you best to inform her and you will not be judged guilty for her sin.

 

[puzzleannie]

who elected you the policeman over the actions of your friends? a friendly reminder if you think she might have forgotten is fine, but the judgemental tone and refusing to let the issue alone once she has given her answer is out of line. You told her the truth, she made her answer, the rest is up to her and her confessor, not up to you.

 

[Tom]

Flopfoot:

I saw my friend drinking diet coke just before mass began yesterday, so I told her she isn’t supposed to eat or drink except water for 1hr before recieving the Eucharist. She said it was because she had to lead the singing at the mass, she needed to drink the coke for her voice, and water wouldn’t do. She said she thought that “God would prefer her to be able to sing at the mass than to follow that rule”

I guess I’m just not that observant, it probably wouldn’t have even dawned on me what another person was drinking, but, since you said it was “just before” Mass, I must ask, how much before? 5 minutes, 10 minutes? And how long after Mass began did she receive the Eucharist? 30 minutes? 45 minutes? Did you time the interval to insure it was less than 60 minutes? To make sure she was sinning? See my point? Today at Mass it was around 55 minutes after Mass began that we received, so, I could have been drinking my diet coke sitting waiting for Mass to begin. I usually spend my time prior to Mass in reflection, not monitoring my friends actions, but that’s just me. In any case pray for her, and say one for me if you don’t mind.

 

[neophyte]

puzzleannie:

who elected you the policeman over the actions of your friends? a friendly reminder if you think she might have forgotten is fine, but the judgemental tone… is out of line.

“Am I my brother’s keeper?” Well, in fact, YES, we ARE responsible to let someone know when their actions are gravely sinful, and I don’t detect any judgementalism in Flopfoot’s posts. What I detect is a sincere concern over the welfare of a friend.

“Full knowledge” means that one knows the Church teaches that the sin is grave matter. The fact that one disagrees with the teaching is irrelevant, so if one then commits the grave sin with full consent then the sin is mortal.

Is this grave matter? I’m not qualified to say, but with anything involving the reception of our Lord I sure would want to err on the side of caution.

puzzleannie:

You told her the truth, she made her answer, the rest is up to her and her confessor, not up to you.

Yep, that’s true. Flopfoot, I’m afraid that since you’ve told her about it and she’s choosing to ignore you the only thing left to do is pray for her.

Perhaps the fact that she seems to not understand the nature of the Church’s authority is a mitigating factor. As puzzleannie says, that’s a matter between her and her confessor.