Friend whose Children are Unbaptised

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TracyR,
I wish you luck on your pilgrimage. Though I received 1st communion, my mixed marriage parents never required me to continue until confirmation. Thus, it wasn’t until I was in my early to mid thirties that I was confirmed. When I first got confirmed, I didn’t believe everything the church teaches, but I did recognize that maybe I just didn’t understand the church’s teaching on that subject. Birth control is a good example. As a Catholic, I have never rejected the churches teaching, but there was a period when I didn’t yet understand that teaching. It took me about five years to understand the churches teaching on birth control, my obedience followed. But what I hear a lot of today is so-called Catholics rejecting the church’s teaching on a subject like birth control. Even priests and bishops have been known to make public statements on these types of issues; there have always been Judases. This is simply unacceptable. So, when I read some of your posts, I hear you saying some things that contradict Catholic teaching. Is that because you are becoming a so-called cafeteria Catholic who accepts some parts while rejecting others? Or is it because you don’t understand that teaching, yet? If the answer is the latter, and I sense it may be, have a wonderful pilgrimage.

By the way, my intention for posting this was not so much to gain advice about how to handle my friend. I’m a big boy, really. And I try not to be a nosey Nellie. My intention was to point out a situation that I think highlights the crisis in the modern church. Here we are giving our children a “quality education” and we neglect the most simple and basic of Catholic truths. Pure hubris.

Thistle. I have greatly enjoyed your comments. I know cradle Catholics who have thought critically about their Faith, but so many nowadays have no idea and I believe are subconsciously morphing into Protestants. Perhaps your exposure to other backgrounds has necessitated your clarity and erudition.
 
No. Not a cafeteria Catholic. Sorry to disappoint you.
My whole point was that sadly its the sad state people live in these days. But to try and tell people what to do , or interfer will only lead to bad things.
I am still learning in my Catholic journey ,but I’ve never been a cafeteria anything.
What I do know is people. I have dealt with so many different types of people that I know when to trudge right in the front door and when not to.

And two things you never want to be involved in is other people’s marriages and how to raise someone’s children. LOL .
People become very, very defensive when an outsider involves themselves in any one of those two ( unless they invite it in).

I may not be a scholar in the Catholic religion but what I do know is that interfaith marriages are allowed these days. So if its allowed this , the situation you described WILL happen. Especially when the parents cannot agree. It would be tough. The mother has the children, she may want them to be Catholic, but dad is Luthern. He may not want them to be Catholic. Both parents have a say in how their children are brought up, and both parents have differing thoughts on how they should be raised.

So my question to you is " How do you think they should be brought up?" I’d hate to tell you this but you have no say. You didn’t concieve them and didn’t give birth to them.
You can state that the Church has a say. That would be true only on the part of the mother. But guess what? Dad is not a practicing Catholic, he is Protestant and the Catholic Cannon Law has no bearing to him because he is not Catholic nor practices Catholisism. Dad is the other parent who has a say.
Lutherns, this I do know because my father is , and my grandmother was, Luthern , they do not believe in infant baptism. Will they do them? Yes. The Methodist do to since I baptised my two oldest in the Methodist church as babies. Was it required of me by any law? No. I did it at the time when they were little because at one point in my grandmothers’ life she was Catholic and sometime in her life she left the church but still held onto the belief of the importance of infant baptism and babies being in ‘limbo’. So she wanted me to baptise them. But it was not required of me by my faith at the time. My husband was brought up Presybterian and wasn’t allowed to get baptised until he was 11yrs old ( age of reason in the Protestant faith).

Anyways, yes, mom should know better. But it sounds as if she doesn’t. Its amazing how little cradle Catholics know their own faith. Sadly even though I’m new to the Catholic faith I feel I have more of an understanding of it than most of the members in our Parish. I guess that will be until the day they quit coming to Mass late, or only coming in for Communion , or leaving before the whole service has ended. That will be the day when they can start finding books of the Bible too. Thankfully the priest , and deacons know more than anyone. I have wonderful teachers. I can’t complain. Do I have a lot to learn? Yes. Am I a cafeteria Catholic? NO.
My younger two will be baptised and since I can’t have anymore children. I know that I’m doing what I need for my children. But it would be wrong of me to concern myself in the affairs of others. Its up to the people , whomever they maybe. To learn their faith and to practice what they learn.

But what I am is a good “people reader”. Now you didn’t state in your original post that you were only commenting on how the sad state of affairs of the beliefs of Catholics were.
You were talking about interferring in something that really wasn’t your place to interfer in because you were being a nosey Nellie, by wanting to go to this woman’s place of work and tell the principal that her children weren’t baptised. Being a parent who has children in Catholic school I can tell you without a reason of a doubt the principal already knows. That is why when you fill out registration forms and they ask about baptism, that you either write that down or you don’t. But its right on the very first page of the registration form. So you wouldn’t be telling this principal anything he or she didnot already know.

What you could do of course you could give your friend some material for his wife to read, you can be an ear to listen to and tell him he needs to discuss how he wants his children baptised with his wife because last I know its between him, her and God ( no other fourth party is needed). That you will pray for them and that’s all you can do as a good friend. Anything else is interferring where you don’t need to be.

Is it sad? Yes. Not sure if you have any children of your own, but just take it as something you will never do should you ( or if you) have any children of your own.

You stated that it didn’t matter what country you live in. Sadly that is not true. I guess its why Americans aren’t exactly well liked by other countries in the world, and why an American will NEVER, EVER be Pope. Its because of the sad state of sin that we live in , in this country. Our country has turned away from God. He is no longer allowed in public schools, you can’t go somewhere without offending someone by mentioning the name of God or Jesus.

Though God’s law trumps all, American’s still hide behind the 1st Ammendement law for everything. If you don’t think so , well watch the news.
 
Tracy,
You assume so many things that just aren’t true. Your reasoning is emotional. The Catholic church has changed, not just in terms of mode or attributes, but in terms of substance. My mixed marriage parents were married not at the altar, but in the vestibule. Their marriage was highly frowned upon. And my mother had to agree to have the children baptized and raised as Catholics. She had to sign a pledge. Their marriage could only occur through a dispensation.

But today, the special circumstance has become the norm. No one really cares. Catholic schools are not about getting a Catholic education but going to a better school that “those people” can’t afford. Even the teachers, my friend’s wife included, don’t want to send their children there. Many of them teach there at a lower salary, not because they believe in Catholic values, but because they don’t want to teach “those children.”

Look, it is my friend’s business how he raises his kids. And it’s the principal’s business how he runs his school. But you can be sure I won’t send my children there. I know plenty of people, nonbelievers and Evangelicals and whatever, who do not Baptize their children. I respect their beliefs and their integrity to their belief, even though I believe they are in error. My complaint is really the hypocrisy. That’s all. Yes, there have always been hypocrites, but not like this. There used to be a system of checks and balances to minimize stuff like this. Today, there isn’t. That’s because the exception has become the norm. And I blame the new church!
 
Hi there,

I’m confused as to why Baptism would be important to these people. They don’t want to raise the children Catholic or Lutheran. I don’t know about the Lutheran faith, but in the Catholic faith as we know, when you baptize your child, it is not only to wash away original sin and to bring them sanctifying grace, it is to make a pledge to God and His Church that you are going to, to the best of your ability, raise them as Catholics. The Catholic party would be the one to promise this.

Why baptize the children, if they are not planning to raise them in either religion? I think that they need to discuss and iron this out first, perhaps with their priest or minister, before they look into baptism for the kids. Many churches and priests also won’t baptize a baby/child if the parents outright say that they have no plans to raise the child in question Catholic; what would be the point? Baptism isn’t just a ceremony, it’s a sacred pledge. That child would be dedicated as a Catholic forever, and why do that if you’re not going to do anything to rear them as a Catholic?

I assume that the same would go in the Lutheran faith, although I honestly have no idea as I don’t know a lot about the Lutheran religion or its’ guidelines.

Why does it bother this person that their kids aren’t baptized if they don’t want to raise them in either faith? I suppose that is for them to mull over and figure out.

I also find it interesting that the Catholic in question is teaching at a Catholic school when they are likely non-practicing and have no intentions of raising their family as Catholics. Most Catholic schools wouldn’t be too crazy about that, but that’s not for me to judge. I’m also curious why that’s her “dream job” when she’s non-practicing? Or is she?

I would stay out of it, myself. Let the parents decide this.

God Bless.
 
I also find it interesting that the Catholic in question is teaching at a Catholic school when they are likely non-practicing and have no intentions of raising their family as Catholics. Most Catholic schools wouldn’t be too crazy about that, but that’s not for me to judge. I’m also curious why that’s her “dream job” when she’s non-practicing? Or is she?

I would stay out of it, myself. Let the parents decide this.

God Bless.

This website needs an I Agree smilie icon. You said it much better than I did. Its up to the parents to duke it out. I’m not sure why they are concerned now anyways. They weren’t concerned about it before the children were born, they weren’t concerned about it enough to do anything after the children were born , and now here they are. Its between them to talk about it and decide.

As for the Catholic schools. Depending on where you are at , they are pretty much really starting to hurt. Catholic school attendance is going way down. They are either consolidating or shutting down altogether. I’m sure there are some that are thriving. I went to an open house of the Catholic school I attended for K and 1st grade and its still thriving very well. But our little rural Catholic school this year between PreK-8th grade only has 59 kids in it. If this school would have been in the city it would have been shut down years ago. But its still pretty self sustaining at the moment because the parents fundraise to death , and our priest is a recycling nut and this year alone recycled metals that parishioners or local businesses have donated and recieved about $4,000 this year for it. I know with the generous scholarship and endownment from our church its still really expensive for us. Our tution was extremely generous. But its all the extras times 4 that is killing us.
I mean , next year the school is shutting down the 7th and 8th grades. Which will push attendance for the school down even more. I will be going back to homeschooling at least 2 out of my 4 for next year ( I’d love to have them all back at home again but the two middle ones really love the school).

I know many people have the impression that Catholic schools make it so families that can’t afford it can’t go. I think some schools are willing to bend over backwards, like our tiny little Catholic school, and some just aren’t concerned because for that one family that can’t afford to send their children , they have 10 more that can pay for it. I think the flexibilty comes in those schools that struggle to stay open and not the ones where they have multiple classrooms for one grade alone.
As for teachers we have 7 teachers in our school, and the classes are blended. Out of the 7 teachers, two of them are NOT Catholic. They teach there because they know the school’s reputation and they really want to teach children. Not teach them to take tests like the public schools now do. They want that real teaching experience and as a homeschooler, an ex professional daycare worker, with associate degree in elementary edcuation I would really want to learn how to teach children from a good curriculum, not to go to a public school to teach children from a curriculum that teaches them to take state testing. Having worked in the public schools I fear for our children’s future, and honestly private schools are the last chance we have at least some children getting a good education.
LIke a friend of mine said " I wish you didn’t have to pay for private school." and to be honest private schools wished parents didn’t have to pay for it either. But where is the money going to come from to pay the teachers, purchase curriculum, pay for utilities etc? The state doesn’t pay for these things. Catholic churches in many areas are in danger of consolidating or closing as well. Most Catholic churches can’t even hardly keep their church running let alone a church and a school. So someone’s got to flip the bill.

The teachers that do teach in private schools do it because they love to. They want to teach in a Christian enviroment, albeit regardless if its as Christian as it should be. I know as a Christian it would kill me inside to teach in a public school. I don’t think I could ever teach in such a Godless place. These private school teachers get paid so little to do something they love. Heck, I homeschooled my children for 8yrs and didn’t get paid a thing. It was the most thankless, payless job I’ve ever had, but you know what? I didn’t it because I love my children more than anything in the world. I’ve worked a few thankless jobs throughtout the years but I did them because I loved them, love the enviroment even thought the pay was REALLY crummy. I enjoyed the friendship of the people I worked with too. I don’t work them now because either , A. I moved, or B I had to move on due to life circumstance. Catholic school teachers work where they do because they love being where they are.

I know our school and our teachers don’t think of children as being undesirable. We live in a very economically depressed area and many children come from homes where parents don’t have much money and I guess we are very blessed that the teachers are so dedicated to teach them all. Regardless of how much money mom and dad do and do not have.
 
Spirithound said:
We still use altars.
Click to expand...
This was a quote from my dear wife, who is much more scholarly on this subject than I. But I’ll give it a try. Prior to VII, we had altars on the back wall of the sacristy (I think that’s the right word). The Tabernacle, containing the Most Holy Eucharist, would be on the altar in the center of the back wall of the church, I believe visible from every spot in the church, and certainly placed in the most prominent position of the church. Somewhere inside the altar were one or more relics from the saints. Relics are generally bones of the saints. During the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the priest stood facing the altar. The Altar boys were not permitted on the highest part of the altar. And the parishioners were not permitted beyond the altar rail. After VII, they took out many, not all, of the altars, frequently moved the Tabernacle off to the side, and almost always ripped out the altar rails. The altar was replaced with a communion table, which was further away from the back wall so that the priest could face the congregation.

But the main point was that prior to VII, they were called mixed marriages, not interfaith marriages, and they were held basically in the foyer of the church. I’ve known a few priests who, back in the day, would smoke in the foyer as well.:eek:😃
 
Thistle,
Checked missal regarding examination of conscience. It was a reprinted edition approved by Ecclesia Dei. It was in a section titled, “The Six Commandments of the Church.” I also found these in the Baltimore Catechism 4, lesson 35, question 389. They read as follows:

A. The chief commandments of the Church are six:

To hear Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation.
To fast and abstain on the days appointed.
To confess at least once a year.
To receive the Holy Eucharist during the Easter time.
To contribute to the support of our pastors.
Not to marry persons who are not Catholics, or who are related to us within the third degree of kindred, nor privately without witnesses, nor to solemnize marriage at forbidden times.

–Dad_o_seven

Repondez s’il vous plait
 
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