Friends divorcing - what to do?

[CCM08]

I had the same reaction to CCM08. He seemed to be women-bashing to me, as well. I felt he had a bitter experience, and was generalizing about the motives of all women in general.

Woman bashing: All woman are lying whores.
Truthful statement the majority of divorces (over 70 percent) are filed by women. I have no experience with family courts, been married a little under a year to a wonderful woman whom I love to death.

I looked up his statistic, and it is just a general quote in an article, uncited, saying that women file for the majority of the divorces. Who says? How much? 51%? What does that statistic of mysterious origin say??

Considering the link was to a search engine result that provided hundreds of webpages with various data on the subject this is rather lacking, either an intentional attempt to be dishonest or a case of being too lazy to do some research.

Also I point out, that if a woman is being abused, or feel her children are not safe, then she would be the one to file.

So then we are to believe that the majority of men beat their wives and sexual molest their children according to you?

That was certainly the case with me. My income took a huge dive, his went way up. He cheated, he filed. Its been the case in every instance that I know of.

So what, companies have a policy that states if you get a divorce and are a man they give you a raise? Obviously in many cases a woman’s economic standing falls in divorce. This is a soceity of equality however, women have the same chance at education and work. Unmarried people have to support themselves.

A friend had a very abusive husband. She had to leave for her baby’s safety. He is on record for physcially abusing her, yet he had 50-50 custody.

I simply don’t believe that. Even in cases where there is no claim of abuse before divorce proceedings family courts across country operate on a “caution” principial. Considering the vast majority of fit and loving fathers come out of a divorce with an occassional weekend there’s no way a guy with a DV record ended up with joint custody.

She had to pay over $200,000 in court costs over the years so she owns nothing and rents small apartments and works long hours day in and day out. Her ex owns two lakeside homes, yet she had to pay him child support (he knows how to hide his income, and can afford good lawyers).

People pay court costs only in proceedings they start. This would indicate not a victim of the courts, but a woman that started proceeding after proceeding and continued to lose them. It’s also highly unlikely that she ended up with a child support obligation. Joint custody arrangments tend to exclude child support, that’s why women’s groups are opposed to co-parenting laws desite the fact children do better when both parents are active in their lives. Shall we dig up every news peice related to men that get railroaded by family courts? The entire system needs to be overhauled.

Right. I have. And you know what they say? That bruises and broken bones are not the devastating wounds - its verbal abuse that is shattering, and is much worse than anything physical. Verbal abuse is far more common, and there are no burises or borken bones to prove it happened. Like all crimes, it takes place in private - when there are no witnesses. Its almost always a husband abusing a wife. Men are the primary verbal abusors, so says verbal abuse expert and author Patricia Evans. Over 90% of the time, its the man. If I recall, I think she says its closer to 100% (just less than). And I know this is the reason for many divorces. Its simply a problem that is more common to man than woman. (Like murder, for example. Women murder. But a murderer is much more likely to be a man.) Abuse is about controlling another person, and its a man’s problem. After all, God didn’t tell Adam that, as a result of sin being in the world now, “Your wife will rule over you.”

For some reason I doubt anyone has ever been “verbally abused” to death. I read through the description of the self promoting feminist author Patricia Evans lovely work, “The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change.” A political huckster with books to sell and an ideology to promote is not an expert. Though here is a lovely quote from her website, “It’s about men changing because I have never seen a woman, who is really abusive to her mate, change.” verbalabuse.com/Books.shtml I’d generally consider that a pretty sexist remark, men on the only ones capable of self improvement.
So I’m curious, if spouses have a shouting match are they verbally abusing eachother or is just the man?

 

[CCM08]

We don’t know that woman’s motives for filing for divorce. I just know from all the women I’ve talked to and been friends with, (and the men,) that 8 of ten times there has been a divorce, the man was the reason. Either his adultery, his abusiveness, his addictions…

Of course, women are never to blame for anything. No woman has ever committed adultery, abused her spouse, or had an addicition. So, let’s see some proof of these assertations.

Because you don’t want to make the abuser mad because this time he might kill you.

I would suggest not watching the Lifetime movie network and actually thinking it represents reality.

CCMO8 doesn’t think he knows any abused wives. No, they just aren’t telling him because he might tell them they’re at fault for escalating things.

You don’t know me, and don’t presume to tell me what I do or do not know. You may live in a fantasy world were every man comes home and beats his wife for GP. That world has nothing to do with the real one. Maybe your personal experiences have left you unable to comprehend the real world, and if that’s the case I’m sorry for that. However, it doesn’t change the fact the mythological views of the world don’t help positive change. And do not suggest again that I support spousal abuse, is that clear?

The divorce period is often when abuse turns to spousal killing. OP does not want to be in the crossfire.

I’m not trying to be mean or mock you, but you obviously need mental help from a professional. Considering the OP’s question has to do with the morality of supporting a divorce and you’ve jumped to “spousal murder” it’s obvious there’s signficant obession and detached thinking going on.

As for the devastating financial effects of divorce… I’m glad CCMO8 only knows men who don’t conceal income and pay more than the minimum child support.

I’m curious, are men just ATM’s in your world? Is that what it means to be a “good dad,” just paying money every month? Maybe men should just work more hours instead of seeing their children so they can pay more?

Every single mom I know got the financial shaft big time. I want to live in his world where all the men are good and generous to their ex wives and children.

Less than 4 percent of back child support is owed by people that earn more than $40,000 dollars. 80 percent of men pay their full child support when the woman honors the custody arrangement. 2/3 of all back child support is owed by men making less than $10,000 a year. The truth is willful refusal to pay rarely as anything to do with back child support. Unemployment, under employment, and unrealistic obligations do. Of course in divorce the living standard drops, for men and women.

And by the way, men lie and accuse wives of child abuse and spousal abuse also. That car drives both ways down the street.

Actually, that’s all I’ve ever said. It’s just the feminist camp that can’t admit that women also do wrong.

OP needs to know that she could be taking on the support and welfare of a family that is about to be plunged into $40K worth of legal bills and financial ruin. And this could be an open-ended situation. At what point do you kick a woman and her kids out on the street?

Divorce mythology. Divorce need not cost more than 4 or 5 hundred dollars. Legal bills run high when spouses wage endless wars against eachother over assets. If there are no assets involved than divorce is actually a quick and inexpensive process.

To the OP, you haven’t given too many details about this situation, and just what kind of trouble you’re opening yourself up to. If a marriage was ugly, the divorce will get uglier. And the law isn’t about facts and what is provable in a court of law. It’s about who has the most expensive lawyer and who is willing to perjure and lie and twist things to win, and who wants to destroy the other person the most. Once that divorce can is opened, you can’t control where it goes. It has a multiplier effect. My advice to anyone contemplating it is MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A GOOD REASON BEFORE YOU GO DOWN THAT ROAD! Otherwise, just take steak knives and disembowel each other in the kitchen with the children watching. It will have the same effect and be much cheaper in the long run.

Wow, that’s very compassionate. She shouldn’t take people in that need a place to stay because some divorces get messy.

 

[dulcissima]

I do think it is good advice to be cautious about committing your home to them for anything long term. Divorce is a very emotional time, and you will have to realize you would be dealing with your friends in a way that is up close and very personal at a time when they are at their absolute worst. I think you would have to be very realistic about that. I do think staying with family, if at all possible, would be a better solution. Offering to help with some baby sitting might be a more practical way of being there for them.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Quote:
Because you don’t want to make the abuser mad because this time he might kill you.

I would suggest not watching the Lifetime movie network and actually thinking it represents reality.

Didn't learn it on Lifetime.  I'm stunned at your comment.  You've obviously never dealt with domestic violence first-hand.  I won't even dignify that remark.

Quote:  "You don't know me, and don't presume to tell me what I do or do not know. You may live in a fantasy world were every man comes home and beats his wife for GP. That world has nothing to do with the real one. Maybe your personal experiences have left you unable to comprehend the real world, and if that's the case I'm sorry for that."

Well, you don't know me either.  No woman lives in a fantasy world that includes being hit.  But it's the real world for many women.  And I promise you there are women who are reading this now and you have just discredited yourself and your views completely because of your comments.

Quote: I’m not trying to be mean or mock you, but you obviously need mental help from a professional. Considering the OP’s question has to do with the morality of supporting a divorce and you’ve jumped to “spousal murder” it’s obvious there’s signficant obession and detached thinking going on.

No, I don’t need mental help from a professional. And your comment lacks all Christian charity. It was mean and mocking. Unless you’ve ever had a spouse threaten to kill you if you tried to leave, I’d stop commenting. I was not even talking to you. The OP was asking about taking in a family during a divorce. I was telling the OP that if she was dealing with such a situation that was unknown, that this is a very risky time period for certain kinds of people. Start paying attention to headlines and start noticing how many women disappear or are killed by their husbands right as they are filing for divorce. I’ve seen stories in the local paper where husbands kill their wives AND children during the divorce.
I’m not detached or obsessive. I’m speaking from the voice of experience.

Quote:
“I’m curious, are men just ATM’s in your world?” No. But if I give up my career to be a SAHM for ten years and have no job, a man cannot just leave without making up for that. That is JUSTICE.

“Is that what it means to be a “good dad,” just paying money every month?” No. Taking care of the family and honoring his vows and commitment is preferable. But if he won’t do that, cold hard cash would help.

“Maybe men should just work more hours instead of seeing their children so they can pay more?” Good idea. Especially if them being around their children is detrimental to the children.

As for your financial facts, I know of men who quit their jobs and work under the table so they don’t have to support their wives and children. Again, you obviously haven’t talked to men who do this kind of thing.

Quote:
“Divorce mythology. Divorce need not cost more than 4 or 5 hundred dollars. Legal bills run high when spouses wage endless wars against eachother over assets. If there are no assets involved than divorce is actually a quick and inexpensive process.”

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Good one! What planet do you live on?? Legal bills run high in a world where lawyers charge $250 an hour and when one party drags things out and refuses to cooperate and takes three years to get a final decree. Legal bills run high when one party insists on taking it to court where they can perjure themselves about their behavior. And many spouses have assets like the family home and possessions and bank accounts that need to be divided. Here’s a hint for you. Sometimes men who beat their wives can’t do that any more. So they use the court system to torment the woman. It can be done. But then you’d think I learned that on the Lifetime channel also.

Quote:
“Wow, that’s very compassionate. She shouldn’t take people in that need a place to stay because some divorces get messy.”

I wasn’t giving you advice. I was telling her to consider that this might not be a one or two-month situation with a woman going through a sad spell. That it could become a horrible and stress-filled situation with people you don’t know very well reacting to things in a highly emotional manner.

But thank you for denigrating over a decade of pain and fear, and a searing legal and psychological experience. Your kindness and understanding of abused spouses is heartwarming. I’m sure every other woman on this board who has a sister, mother, or friend who has endured this kind of thing just got a wake-up call as to what you are really like.

 

[CCM08]

Didn’t learn it on Lifetime. I’m stunned at your comment. You’ve obviously never dealt with domestic violence first-hand. I won’t even dignify that remark.

I’ve yet to see you produce one peice of evidence to support your world view.

Well, you don’t know me either. No woman lives in a fantasy world that includes being hit.

There are also men out there that are being abused by their spouses. The difference is unlike women, it’s socially shameful for a man to report that abuse to the authorities. Unlike women there aren’t well funded charities specifically for them from the public and private section. In the state of Californa men are specifically forbidden from receiving any public benefits for abused spouses.
Women who are being hit deserve the support that exists, but so do male victims of domestic violence. Nor do women that engage in spousal combative behavior deserve to be considered battered spouses when their husbands are not.

No, I don’t need mental help from a professional. And your comment lacks all Christian charity. It was mean and mocking.

Actually quite the opposite. Someone that lives in a world where a run of the mill divorce issue becomes spousal murder needs help. That’s not a mentally healthy thought process.
Does this mean I should also dig up every article on every black widow I can find? Or how about the Andrea Yates of the world? I’ve seen headlines from Texas where mothers string their children up, does that mean most, or even a significant number of women are hanging their children?

I’m not detached or obsessive. I’m speaking from the voice of experience.

It rather seems you’ve had a tramuatic experience and that has left you unable to deal with situations in normal contexts. It’s not uncommon for people to have paranoia as part of PTSS.

As for your financial facts, I know of men who quit their jobs and work under the table so they don’t have to support their wives and children.

You do realize there are women that don’t pay their child support as well? You seem to be unable to coop with the fact that an ancedotal experience doesn’t equate with a fact of any kind.

What planet do you live on?? Legal bills run high in a world where lawyers charge $250 an hour and when one party drags things out and refuses to cooperate and takes three years to get a final decree.

1.Dragging out a divorce is the choice of the parties involved.
2.If you aren’t planning to wage a legal battle you don’t need a $250 an hour lawyer. Most family law attorneys don’t charge anywhere near that.
3.If the woman is so afraid of her “batterer” then it really seems that instead of allowing him to do this her fear would just motivate her forget the money and run. If you’re going to sit around and fight it out over the bank accounts you couldn’t be too afraid knowing what the legal process requires in terms of discovery.

That it could become a horrible and stress-filled situation with people you don’t know very well reacting to things in a highly emotional manner.

So again, we shouldn’t help people because they have problems? That’s a really odd take on charity, “I’ll only help people that don’t have problems.”

But thank you for denigrating over a decade of pain and fear, and a searing legal and psychological experience. Your kindness and understanding of abused spouses is heartwarming. I’m sure every other woman on this board who has a sister, mother, or friend who has endured this kind of thing just got a wake-up call as to what you are really like.

Yeah, every woman is being beaten whether she knows it or not. When you’ve spent large amounts of time ministering and helping the victims of human trafficking you know what a woman that has really been abused is like. You also learn to recongize that western women belly aching because their husbands don’t always do exactly what they want doesn’t equate with abuse. So forgive me, but being yelled at by your husband hardly compares with what it’s like for a woman that’s spent the last 18 months being raped 5 times a day. Now that’s abuse, and it’s something precious few western women would have any conception of and that includes you.

 

[Eliza10]

CCM08, your posts are shocking. I feel sorry for your wife.

 

[Eliza10]

For some reason I doubt anyone has ever been “verbally abused” to death.

CCM08, you are completely ignorant on this subject.

Perhaps it is youth. You haven’t lived much yet. You are speaking with those who have lived much more than you. Like marriage beyond the honeymoon stage, children, and divorce.

I read through the description of the self promoting feminist author Patricia Evans lovely work, “The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change.”

So, you read a web page and now you are an expert on her? You can now judge her as “self-promoting”, and …

"…A political huckster with books to sell and an ideology to promote…

Then you are very rash. Perhaps you are just green.

… is not an expert…"

Her experience counseling many over many years makes her an expert. There is much of life to learn from any person who has years of deep experience in something we are ignorant about.

"… Though here is a lovely quote from her website, “It’s about men changing because I have never seen a woman, who is really abusive to her mate, change.”

Evans has been criticized for calling verbal abusors “he” and “him” in her book, and their partners “she” and “her”. She has explained in her first book that her in-the-trenches work experiences of counseling with verbal abuse reveal that the fact is, that of thousands, hardly any were women. She has sought them out, in order to understand.

CCM08, that a woman verbal abusor is relatively rare should make sense to you, if you consider the murderer analogy I gave. Women do murder, but a murderer is far more likely to be a man. So also, women do verbally abuse. Verbal abuse (vs. unkind or abusive language) is always an intention to exert power over or control another person.

That quote you used is one Evans self-posted and is from her vast experience. She has worked with many, many abusors and she has found that consistently, that none of the many women abusors she works have ever changed. They aren’t open to it, or don’t have the character required. Perhaps they are too far gone from their norm. (Such generalizations can be made about pedophiles as well. Statistaically, they also don’t ever change. Perhaps they, like woman abusors, have also gone too far from the norm).

Her latest book is good news for women married to verbal abusors. I haven’t read it yet, but I am interested in reading it sometime. Often the only choice is to get out of such a marriage. That is what good priests told me. But Evans is writing about the men who were abusors and wanted to change, and did, to give hope to women that it is possible, in some instances, for an abusor to undo his ways. She offers her experience, drawing a portrait, showing the signs of a man willing and able to change out of being an abusor. Its hope, because most women, at least the ones I know, want to keep their families intact, and will go to great lengths to try and do so, if there is any shred of hope this can be done.

Fortunately our Church is not ignorant on the subject. Also Gregory Popcak’s books and radio show have been very helpful to me.

So I’m curious, if spouses have a shouting match are they verbally abusing each other or is just the man?

This statement about verbal abuse is evidence of your ignorance on the topic.

 

[Eliza10]

Thanks to everyone for all the replies, you have given some food for thought with all the varied responses. We are going to find out more about the situation and make our decision accordingly. At this point, we are not really concerned about the enabling factor, but we just need to learn a bit more about what’s going on, as we are friends with both parties.

May God bless you both, and also may He bless your endeavors to have empathy and to offer what assistance you determine is wise.

 

[LJN21]

Actually while I don’t agree with how he is going about making his point I do agree with CCM08. I have personally seen a nasty like similar to what he was talking about.

Two years before the divorce was filed the husband found out she was sleeping around a lot. He tried to work things out with her, and thought things were going fine. One day afternoon he tries to leave work and his car is gone, when he manages to get home he finds his car in the drive with flat tires his wife and kids and all there clothes gone. That afternoon he is served with a groundless VPO. (I’m not convinced she wasn’t just hoping he would kill him self) He had no contact with this kids of them for over a month before the VPO was dropped. It all worked out in the end and he had full custody of his oldest daughter, it was very stressful for everyone. I almost when in to pre-trem labor at one point. She is now living with her female partner.

 

[gmarie21]

This statement about verbal abuse is evidence of your ignorance on the topic.

I would disagree with you here. Men DON’T report nor seek counseling for the forms of abuse they are subjected to. Men are trained from childhood that they are to be “strong” and “take it like a man”. I have seen many wives emotionally abuse their husbands in public and talk down about their husbands to anyone and everyone that will listen. This is abusive behaviour also and to call it anything but what it is is wrong.

Personally, I hate when women man bash and when men woman bash. It shows the arguers ignorance. I tend to defend men when I hear a woman bashing men b/c I hear women bash men ALL THE TIME. By the way, there are more men in my family than women (and I come from a very large, close-knit family) so please don’t assume that I don’t talk to many men. When either man or woman don’t follow God’s plan for their specific design, problems arise. To blame one gender or another is flat out wrong. We are all sinners and I have yet to meet someone who is totally “innocent” in their problems. Heck, my step-mom’s first husband killed himself when he found out she was having an affair. To him, and his depressed thinking, it was better that he were dead than to be a every-other weekend dad. My step-mom still deals with the guilt daily, and I do feel sorry for her, but not enough to think that her problems with my dad are solely my dad’s fault. It takes two to tango (and that includes fighting).

 

[Liberanosamalo]

No, it doesn’t take two to tango. Not if you have a spouse who follows you from room to room and kicks in doors to tell you “what you need to hear, baby!” And verbal abuse isn’t saying “You’re mean.” It’s saying things repeatedly like, “Why don’t you just crawl off and die. The world would be a better place without you.”

After this I am completely done with CCM08 and his hatefulness. His personal attacks on me are over the top.

Quote:
I’ve yet to see you produce one peice of evidence to support your world view.

My evidence is on x-rays and in the memories of my children who were witnesses. It’s none of your business how I got my world view.

Quote:
There are also men out there that are being abused by their spouses. ....Nor do women that engage in spousal combative behavior deserve to be considered battered spouses when their husbands are not. 

Men usually have economic advantages from  work and do not have child care problems that make it hard to leave an abusive situation.  And I suppose CCM08 would consider a woman who tries to defend herself a spousal combatant.  I personally never tried to hit back, because that would have been even more dangerous.
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Quote:
Actually quite the opposite. Someone that lives in a world where a run of the mill divorce issue becomes spousal murder needs help. That's not a mentally healthy thought process.... 

Before my experience, I would not have thought either that helping someone  could open one to violence and stalking behavior at my home, obscene repetitive phone calls, and scenes out on the front lawn.  I was giving advice to someone who may not have considered these things either.  You don't know if that divorce is run of the mill.
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Quote:
It rather seems you've had a tramuatic experience and that has left you unable to deal with situations in normal contexts. It's not uncommon for people to have paranoia as part of PTSS. 

I am quite able to deal with situations in normal contexts.  But I am more aware than those who have not had traumatic experiences the extent to which things can spin out of control.  And thanks for accusing me of being paranoid.  You are a kind man.  I can tell.  :thumbsup:    I prefer to think of it as being very aware of my surroundings.
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Quote:
You do realize there are women that don't pay their child support as well? You seem to be unable to coop with the fact that an ancedotal experience doesn't equate with a fact of any kind. 

And you seem to be unaware of the economic reality of most women who go through divorce.  My anecdotal evidence  equates with the facts of my life.  Most men who work earn more than their wives.   And you obviously have no idea how much it costs to raise a child.  And you've obviously never talked to a woman who can't afford medical care for a child while the ex is buying himself a new car.

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Quote:

1.Dragging out a divorce is the choice of the parties involved.
No.  If one person drags things out, the other person cannot always avert this.  You're talking through your hat.

2.If you aren't planning to wage a legal battle you don't need a $250 an hour lawyer. Most family law attorneys don't charge anywhere near that.
Again, what planet do you live on?  And you better have a good lawyer if your ex gets one to "crucify you legally." 

3.If the woman is so afraid of her "batterer" then it really seems that instead of allowing him to do this her fear would just motivate her forget the money and run. If you're going to sit around and fight it out over the bank accounts you couldn't be too afraid knowing what the legal process requires in terms of discovery.

You aren't allowed to forget the money and run.  You may have a restraining order on you forbidding you from removing your children from the county, stuck 1300 miles from your family and friends.  You may have no choice but to sit it out and fight for basic necessities of life.   If you've never been through it, you have no credibility with your comments.

Quote:
So again, we shouldn’t help people because they have problems? That’s a really odd take on charity, “I’ll only help people that don’t have problems.”

I didn’t tell her not to help. I told her to be careful how she helped and what she was opening herself up to.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Continued:

Quote:
I’m sure every other woman on this board who has a sister, mother, or friend who has endured this kind of thing just got a wake-up call as to what you are really like.

“Yeah, every woman is being beaten whether she knows it or not. … You also learn to recongize that western women belly aching because their husbands don’t always do exactly what they want doesn’t equate with abuse… So forgive me, but being yelled at by your husband hardly compares … Now that’s abuse, and it’s something precious few western women would have any conception of and that includes you.”

You didn’t read my quote correctly. I didn’t say every woman is being beaten. I said "every woman WHO has a mother… " that is different from saying "every woman has a mother… "

Domestic violence exists in our own country. It’s not about western women bellyaching over anything. You don’t know what I have a concept of or what I endured.

Your hostility and antagonism and your need to denigrate and mock and call names to someone you don’t even know makes me wonder how you treat the people you do know. I will avoid your posts from now on. And if you keep personally attacking me, I will consult the moderator.

I thought when I came here I was getting a nice Catholic place to talk. This isn’t so nice after all.

 

[gmarie21]

Continued:

Quote:
I’m sure every other woman on this board who has a sister, mother, or friend who has endured this kind of thing just got a wake-up call as to what you are really like.

“Yeah, every woman is being beaten whether she knows it or not. … You also learn to recongize that western women belly aching because their husbands don’t always do exactly what they want doesn’t equate with abuse… So forgive me, but being yelled at by your husband hardly compares … Now that’s abuse, and it’s something precious few western women would have any conception of and that includes you.”

You didn’t read my quote correctly. I didn’t say every woman is being beaten. I said "every woman WHO has a mother… " that is different from saying "every woman has a mother… "

Domestic violence exists in our own country. It’s not about western women bellyaching over anything. You don’t know what I have a concept of or what I endured.

Your hostility and antagonism and your need to denigrate and mock and call names to someone you don’t even know makes me wonder how you treat the people you do know. I will avoid your posts from now on. And if you keep personally attacking me, I will consult the moderator.

I thought when I came here I was getting a nice Catholic place to talk. This isn’t so nice after all.

I am sorry to hear what you have endured, however, I think he was only “attacking” b/c you were putting your experience out there and making it sound as if your situation is the same for the majority of women. It is not and he had stated that if there is true violence a woman should leave. But there are a good number of women who cry “wolf” in order to try to have full custody of their children and/or to get more money in a divorce. One cannot deny that this occurs quite often also. While he may not be doing a good job trying to explain that, he’s trying to state that one must acknowledge that divorce situations are rarely due to the same reasons you rightly divorced.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

And I see your point. I’m not a man basher. I have a father and three wonderful brothers, and male friends and a brother in law. I am completely aware that most men are not like my ex.

I also know that a poster asked advice and I was giving her food for thought in making a decision based on some things that may not have even occurred to her would be a situation. If there is a situation of abuse, during a divorce an abuser does not all of a sudden turn nice. He’ll be a jerk during the divorce the same way he was during a marriage.

The OP asked about taking in a woman and children. My advice was based on that. If she had asked about taking in a man and his children, my advice may have differed somewhat.

No, my situation is not the same for a majority of women, but it is very similar to a majority of abused women. Those guys all seem cut from the same cloth and seem to behave in eerily consistent ways, like evil twins separated at birth. If you haven’t met one of them, count yourself lucky! And if you know of a situation, look up SafePlace or something like that online and find out what you can do to help the woman (or man). But it’s mostly women. I personally think every church should have a pamphlet rack in the women’s bathroom with information on getting help in DV situations. Because it even happens in “good Catholic households.” And it would be a sign to the woman that this is a parish where she would be believed if she broke the silence. My parish priest was the first person to give me advice on protecting myself. Before that all I had was a spouse telling me no one would believe me because he “never touched me” and everyone thought I was crazy anyway.

It wasn’t until I started talking to people later that I realized how many women have been in my situation. One friend had a husband hit her so hard her contact lens was pushed to behind her eyeball. She’s a daily Mass goer.

I’ll stop this discussion now. If the OP finds she is dealing with a similar situation, she can PM me.

 

[Eliza10]

No, it doesn’t take two to tango…

You got there before me! I am just now editing my response to gmarie, which is too long and has to be split into two posts. This statement also jumped out at me. Yes, gmarie is totally wrong about this. I don’t blame her. It is inexperience speaking. She doesn’t know. Hopefully she is willing to learn.

She is like someone who has never experienced death, and is saying the wrong thing to a grieving person, out of ignorance.

…After this I am completely done with CCM08 and his hatefulness. His personal attacks on me are over the top…

Yes, CCM08’s comments do smack of hatefulness and are very anti-woman, but I won’t judge him hateful, just ignorant. He doesn’t have children yet; he has not observed how much care a child is. Some men transform when they become fathers. Let us hope its so for CCM08. But I must say it after reading what he writes here is does not bode well. He seems quite lacking in empathy and understanding, which is something a mother and child need very much.

You did a good job answering his many ugly conclusions about things. I could answer also just as long - but I first need to see if the guy is at all receptive before I take the time. A response of some kind was necesary so others do not buy into the ignorances displayed here. Thanks for going to the task!

Don’t take CCM08’s comments as attacks on you personally. In my view, his attacks seem to reflect a low view of women in general. Thats why I feel sorry for his wife. Also please don’t take CCM08’s comments as a reason to back out of the forum. There is much good expressed here. Also, you can edit your profile and put CCM08 on your “ignore” list, if you so choose. I have done that once I think. I do it when I judge someone just wants to fight and argue and is disinterested in truth in any form.

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[Eliza10]

I would disagree with you here. Men DON’T report nor seek counseling for the forms of abuse they are subjected to. Men are trained from childhood that they are to be “strong” and “take it like a man”.

I agree that a man abused has a harder time going public with it, and is then also a victim of societal taboos, which makes it harder to get help.

But the fact is, it is far, far less common for a man to be the abused. The man is commonly the abusor in abusive relationships, not the victim. Woman and man are of very different make-up, even though as a society we like to say the are exactly the same. They are not. In domestic violence, as also in murder, whether its physical, verbal, or emotional, the perpetrator is far more likely to be a man.

All abusors deny they abuse. Like any criminal who has committed a crime in secret, he will insist he did not do it. That his victim is making things up. All abusors accuse their victims of abusing them. So the wife is a victim twice, as she now has to defend herself against false accusations. Any expert or person knowledgable in abuse will tell you that this is so.

Therefore when a man complains of his wife abusing him, I need more information before I can accept this. Usually, just hearing both sides of a story gives one a sense of where the truth lies.

But its easier not to get involved and listen to this stuff. It is easier to tell the hurting parties, “I don’t want to get involved”, and not listen to the one who needs to be listened to. Its hard, because you often have to listen to a liar as well, and its not comfortable to make discernments on what is the truth. Its easier to make an arm’s length judgment, and its easier to conclude that if they are having such a difficult divorce, they must *both *be at fault - it takes two to tango! I used to think that myself.

But I learned the hard way that it only takes one to destroy a marraige. If one is determined to divorce, then the one who wants to hold things together can do *nothing *about it. And the law is on the side of the one who wants to leave, and the law will not judge infidelity as a fault to be concerned with.

gmarie, Did you ever follow the story of King Henry VIII, or of St. Thomas More and St. John Fisher? The movie A Man for all Seasons is a good one to watch; its on the Vatican’s all-time best movies list as well.

Think of Catherine of Aragon. Could you say the divorce was partially her fault, too? That it takes two to tango?

The story is classic and compelling because its real life. Its an old old story, and its repeated over and over again.

[continued on next post]

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[Eliza10]

I would disagree with you here. Men DON’T report nor seek counseling for the forms of abuse they are subjected to. Men are trained from childhood that they are to be “strong” and “take it like a man”.

I agree that a man abused has a harder time going public with it, and is then also a victim of societal taboos, which makes it harder to get help.

But the fact is, it is far, far less common for a man to be the abused. The man is commonly the abusor in abusive relationships, not the victim. Woman and man are of very different make-up, even though as a society we like to say the are exactly the same. They are not. In domestic violence, whether its physical, verbal, or emotional, th eperpetrator is far more likely to be a man.

All abusors deny they abuse. Like any criminal who has committed a crime in secret, he will insist he did not do it. That his victim is making things up. All abusors accuse their victims of abusing them. So the wife is a victim twice, she now has to defend herself agaisnt these accusations. Any expert or person knowledgable in abuse will tell you this is so.

Therefore when a man complains of his wife abusing him, I need more information before I can accept this. Usually, just hearing both sides of a story gives one a sense of where the truth lies.

But its easier not to get involved and listen to this stuff. It is easier to tell the hurting parties, “I don’t want to get involved”, and not listen to the one who needs to be listened to. Its hard, because you often have to listen to a liar as well, and its not comfortable to make discernments on what is the truth. Its easier to make an arm’s length judgment, and its easier to conclude that if they are having such a difficult divorce, they must *both *be at fault - it takes two to tango! I used to think that myself.

But I learned the hard way that it only takes one to destroy a marraige. If one is determined to divorce, then the one who wants to hold things together can do *nothing *about it. And the law is on the side of the one who wants to leave, and the law will not judge infidelity as a fault to be concerned with.

gmarie, Did you ever follow the story of King Henry VIII, or of St. Thomas More and St. John Fisher? The movie A Man for all Seasons is a good one to watch; its on the Vatican’s all-time best movies list as well.

Think of Catherine of Aragon. Could you say the divorce was partially her fault, too? That it takes two to tango?

The story is classic and compelling because its real life. Its an old old story, and its repeated over and over again.

[continued on next post]

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[gmarie21]

I should appologize, I forgot to mention/edit my post. I meant to say most of the time it takes two to tango. Many marriages that end (note, I am not saying every marriage) have a history of a bad marriage or red flags that were not noticed and/or ignored. Yes, I am basing this off of the many marriages that I know that ended in divorce or that are still intact but are miserable marriages. Everyone I know that has/had issues were a result of both parties, no one was truly a sole “victim”. I do agree that there are marriages where one party is clearly the victim, but again, I do not believe they are the majority.

 

[Eliza10]

[continued from previous post]

I have seen many wives emotionally abuse their husbands in public and talk down about their husbands to anyone and everyone that will listen. This is abusive behaviour also and to call it anything but what it is is wrong.

I don’t know if what you heard is really defined as abuse but I do understand the discomfort you feel when one not present is slandered. Its wrong. I also was always turned off by women who would put their husbands down in front of others as well. But I am not as quick to judge them now.

I do think its right to be frank to them with your reaction - to say, i.e., “You are really bad-talking your husband. Would you want him to talk that way about you?” Maybe you will plant a seed to make her rethink her ways. Also you may find she is frustrated, because maybe her husband refuses to hear what she says about anything, and she has a real need to vent.

Usually there are very real reasons for people’s frustrations. But if you judge her by your own standards, it may not be fair. Maybe your husband would never treat you as hers treats her. Maybe if your husband treated you like hers treats her, you would find yourself doing or saying things you never thought you would. Judging people by what they do when they are backed against a wall as being who they are is not really fair.

… When either man or woman don’t follow God’s plan for their specific design, problems arise.

Yes, you are right. But know that in a marriage it only takes ONE party (whether it be man or woman) to destroy a marraige. It takes only just one determined will and even God refuses to violate that will. When ONE party choses not to, the spouse cannot hold the marriage together by him or herself.

…To blame one gender or another is flat out wrong.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not blaming one gender in divorce. But when it comes to abuse, it is mainly a man problem, and abuse is common in broken marriages. I am sure the “I am a goddess” mentality that is being marketed so heavily these days is causing havoc in marriages too. I am not an authority on that, but it seems sure to cause broken marriages to me.

We are all sinners and I have yet to meet someone who is totally “innocent” in their problems…

None of us are totally innocent, but it is possible for a normal sinful person endeavoring to do be his or her best to be an innocent party in their own divorce.

Again, think of Catherine of Aragon. When you know her story, you can see how easily one can be an innocent party. All it takes is one selfish person. And that is not an uncommon thing to find.

Heck, my step-mom’s first husband killed himself when he found out she was having an affair. To him, and his depressed thinking, it was better that he were dead than to be a every-other weekend dad. My step-mom still deals with the guilt daily, and I do feel sorry for her, but not enough to think that her problems with my dad are solely my dad’s fault…

Tragic. Still, you cannot judge. An affair is always wrong, but if you knew what in the marriage drove her to seek attention outside her marraige, and knew what weakness in her character allowed her to have an affair, you may judge differently. That the man committed suicide is not just about having a cheating wife - its more about who he was. Have your heard it said that the most selfish act there is is suicide? (And I would think the most selfish act is infidelity!) But, so say the experts on suicide, and there must be a hard nugget of truth in that.

… It takes two to tango (and that includes fighting).

It seems you are implying that fighting, or arguing, or using heated words, or getting angry with your spouse is always a fault.

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[LJN21]

I don’t know if what you heard is really defined as abuse but I do understand the discomfort you feel when one not present is slandered. Its wrong. I also was always turned off by women who would put their husbands down in front of others as well. But I am not as quick to judge them now.

I do think its right to be frank to them with your reaction - to say, i.e., “You are really bad-talking your husband. Would you want him to talk that way about you?” Maybe you will plant a seed to make her rethink her ways. Also you may find she is frustrated, because maybe her husband refuses to hear what she says about anything, and she has a real need to vent.

Usually there are very real reasons for people’s frustrations. But if you judge her by your own standards, it may not be fair. Maybe your husband would never treat you as hers treats her. Maybe if your husband treated you like hers treats her, you would find yourself doing or saying things you never thought you would. Judging people by what they do when they are backed against a wall as being who they are is not really fair.

I’m sorry this is a horrible double standard. Women can get away with say all sorts of really mean things to there husbands but if a man says anything remotely similar its abuse.

Either its abuse for both or its not for both.