Frightening sermon by St. Leonard of Port Maurice

[JeffGuidry]

That was a superb read, thanks for posting it.

I think such sermons serve a very important purpose. Though I believe that God will be more merciful than condemning the vast majority of His souls to Hell, I believe that because of our concupiscent nature, we cannot be coddled and must be told forthrightly and sternly what the costs of our rebellion will be. If we learn to fear God, then as we bend our will to His, grace will reveal His love, and we will replace that dread of Hell with the hope of Heaven.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Well, having read the Sermon, it’s enough to shake one’s faith and hope for salvation to it’s roots

 

[chsngtailodogma]

this is called… M O T I V A T I O N.

i kind of assumed about the figures. but it’s scary to actually read someone else say it.

 

[Mijoy2]

this is called… M O T I V A T I O N.

i kind of assumed about the figures. but it’s scary to actually read someone else say it.

Motivation? With the odds being tens or hundreds of thousands to 1, we can only hope Christianity is a falsehood. It’s our only hope of avoiding eternal damnation, eternal nothingness.

 

[Mijoy2]

The following quote sheds falsehood on the sermon’s validity:

"My son, if you are damned, you have only yourself to blame: ‘Thy damnation comes from thee.’ Lift up your eyes and see all the graces with which I have enriched you to insure your eternal salvation. I could have had you born in a forest in Barbary; that is what I did to many others, but I had you born in the Catholic Faith; I had you raised by such a good father, such an excellent mother, with the purest instructions and teachings. If you are damned in spite of that, whose fault will it be? Your own, My son, your own: ‘Thy damnation comes from thee.’

With odds of a hundred thousand to one, how could this man have had an excellent father and and excellent mother? Odds are one hundred thousand to the on hundred thousandth, the father AND mother where saved. (unless off course the EXCELLENT father and mother were damned, which further makes no sense).

This is distressing and anyone who holds hope after reading it, is either braindead or a very poor mathematician.

 

[jrabs]

I liked the conclusion. Felt hope again after reading the conclusion.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The following quote sheds falsehood on the sermon’s validity:

"My son, if you are damned, you have only yourself to blame: ‘Thy damnation comes from thee.’ Lift up your eyes and see all the graces with which I have enriched you to insure your eternal salvation. I could have had you born in a forest in Barbary; that is what I did to many others, but I had you born in the Catholic Faith; I had you raised by such a good father, such an excellent mother, with the purest instructions and teachings. If you are damned in spite of that, whose fault will it be? Your own, My son, your own: ‘Thy damnation comes from thee.’

With odds of a hundred thousand to one, how could this man have had an excellent father and and excellent mother? Odds are one hundred thousand to the on hundred thousandth, the father AND mother where saved. (unless off course the EXCELLENT father and mother were damned, which further makes no sense).

This is distressing and anyone who holds hope after reading it, is either braindead or a very poor mathematician.

I don’t know about it being false. Doesn’t Jesus, Himself, tell us in scripture that MANY will go on to ‘destrution’ but FEW will go on to ‘life’?

Matthew 7:13-14 … Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

“Many” lost compared to a “few” saved. Seems like the sermon is in keeping with the teachings of Jesus and the bible.

 

[Mijoy2]

I don’t know about it being false. Doesn’t Jesus, Himself, tell us in scripture that MANY will go on to ‘destrution’ but FEW will go on to ‘life’?

Matthew 7:13-14 … Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

“Many” lost compared to a “few” saved. Seems like the sermon is in keeping with the teachings of Jesus and the bible.

My point in this always seems to be missed.

How is this a good thing? It goes against all reason to think that God, who is loving and all good, created a spieces (humans) of which the vast majority will burn in hell for all eternity. Augustine believes this to be literal. Our skin is burns and rejovinates only to burn again. An endless cycle of unfathomable torture. If any engineer were to create a product with this yield in any manufaturing facility in the world he’d be fired.

This “saint” claims 1 in tens of thousands will avoid this outcome. I can see why we are to rejoice and evangelize others into this faith.

It simply goes against reason and crushes all hope. Pardon me please but not to see this logic is to either be in deniial or to be pious in believing yourself (whoever) to be the “1”. In other words, the odds you (the person reading this post) are going to heaven is greater then if you were to get struck by lightening. I think it’s time to start packing the asbestos suits and fire extinguishes.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The point is that the sermon mirrors what Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14. Thus, if we dismiss the sermon, we also dismiss what Jesus said since it contains the same message and if we dismiss one part of Christ’s message, it is illogical to accept any of His teachings – we either accept everything that He taught or dismiss everything that He taught … there can be no hand-picking.

 

[Mijoy2]

The point is that the sermon mirrors what Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14. Thus, if we dismiss the sermon, we also dismiss what Jesus said since it contains the same message and if we dismiss one part of Christ’s message, it is illogical to accept any of His teachings – we either accept everything that He taught or dismiss everything that He taught … there can be no hand-picking.

I agree that is the point. I simply make the next logical point in succesion (based on the sermon and the teachings of many church fathers); odds are tremendouly in favor of us all going to hell.

If anyone can argue against this statement based on the sermon, I’d love to hear. The sermon’s conclusion seems to attempt to shine some hope. However I only found this more hopeful paragraph to be in obvious contradiction with the rest of the sermon. St. Leonard simply can’t have it both ways and still make an intelligent point.

I am not in any way trying to be obstinate. I’d love to be convinced that we somehow we can trust what this semon attempts to preach and find any glimmer of hope in our faith. I’d like nothing more then to be proven wrong.

But it is very very difficult to argue against numbers.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I agree that is the point. I simply make the next logical point in succesion (based on the sermon and the teachings of many church fathers); odds are tremendouly in favor of us all going to hell.

Agreed.

But it is very very difficult to argue against numbers.

Which is why I said earlier … “it’s enough to shake one’s faith and hope for salvation to it’s roots”!

 

[chsngtailodogma]

different people are motivated by different means. to some people this is very eye-opening and sort of a “scared straight” approach. the hard facts, the sheer numbers, etc etc… kind of like commercials about Darfur or AIDS. but for some it’s just not the kind thing that motivates. it can demotivate too, i suppose. every sermon isn’t for everyone. if you find this to be counterproductive for you then put it out of your mind.

i’m glad that i read the article and learned a little bit about this saint.

 

[Mijoy2]

different people are motivated by different means. to some people this is very eye-opening and sort of a “scared straight” approach. the hard facts, the sheer numbers, etc etc… kind of like commercials about Darfur or AIDS. but for some it’s just not the kind thing that motivates. it can demotivate too, i suppose. every sermon isn’t for everyone. if you find this to be counterproductive for you then put it out of your mind.

i’m glad that i read the article and learned a little bit about this saint.

Catholicsm is losing credibility awfully fast.

If we listen to the early church fathers we all burn (minus a handful)

If we listen to the EWTN apologists (who love to quote church fathers on matters such as the real presence, the sacrement of reconciliation, the primacy of Peter…etc etc.) but never seem to mention that virtually everyone we know is damned to hell, our hope is essentially gone, we avoid further teaching.

If we listen to our beloved Pope JPII, we are not to dwell, or despair, over heaven and hell (yet this contradicts scripture and the church fathers) we are to be joyous and live in hope.

Frankly our faith is inconsistent (at best, contradictory at worst). How can I have hope, how can I go on with such a fundementally unintellectual, contradictory, non-consistant, both-sides-of-the-mouth theology?

I want so desperately to find something in the faith to hold on to but it doesn’t seem to be there. We find it okay to dodge tough questions, we find it okay to think as long as we are going to heaven we can pretend to feel bad about the 99.999% that are damned (“because they chose it”).

Frankly this is all horse manure. It’s becomes painfully difficult to absorb. We have an answer for everything, except what it really takes to establish who avoids the pains of hell. But it’s okay, because we will live forever in paradise.

Frankly I find (from the majority of answers of those who contribute to discussions such as this) that they really don’t care a great deal about those whoo are damned (almost all by church teaching) as long as they are not. Which is pious at best.

Our Church teaches (if you read the ECF, or take somewhat literally scripture) we are all damned.

Lets yell from the rooftops!!! See who wants to join us!

Sorry, but this is just too distressing, I can see why people refuse to take part.

 

[sullivan1213]

My point in this always seems to be missed.

How is this a good thing? It goes against all reason to think that God, who is loving and all good, created a spieces (humans) of which the vast majority will burn in hell for all eternity. Augustine believes this to be literal. Our skin is burns and rejovinates only to burn again. An endless cycle of unfathomable torture. If any engineer were to create a product with this yield in any manufaturing facility in the world he’d be fired.

This “saint” claims 1 in tens of thousands will avoid this outcome. I can see why we are to rejoice and evangelize others into this faith.

It simply goes against reason and crushes all hope. Pardon me please but not to see this logic is to either be in deniial or to be pious in believing yourself (whoever) to be the “1”. In other words, the odds you (the person reading this post) are going to heaven is greater then if you were to get struck by lightening. I think it’s time to start packing the asbestos suits and fire extinguishes.

I understand the sentiment behind what you are saying. The majority of the sermon does give the reader a hopeless feeling that the cards are stacked against him/her. However, I think that it is important to point out an subtle but very significant aspect of the preacher’s perspective.
Most of the replies to this thread that I have seen speak of the “long odds” of being saved as if salvation were some arbirtary lottery that God holds at the end of one’s earthly life. That thinking misses the point. He is NOT saying that “1 in tens of thousands” are actually saved because God grades on a curve. He is not suggesting that those few who are saved are saved completely at random. He is simply pointing out the fact that most people aren’t willing to make the sacrafices to choose God over the world and that, after a lifetime of living selfishly, VERY few people turn away from the world and toward God at the 11th hour. It would seem that many of us are carried to hell by sheer momentum and force of habit.
The thing about it though is that it is totally in OUR control (with God’s help of course). The “Why bother? We’re all screwed.” attitude plays right into the hands of the enemy. That’s exactly what he wants us to think and, unfortunately, many of us do.
Is the sermon very scary? Definitely. It makes me realize the urgency of getting to know God as best I can and making Him my true first priority before my whole life has been wasted on myself and my frivolous evil desires.

 

[Mijoy2]

I understand the sentiment behind what you are saying. The majority of the sermon does give the reader a hopeless feeling that the cards are stacked against him/her. However, I think that it is important to point out an subtle but very significant aspect of the preacher’s perspective.
Most of the replies to this thread that I have seen speak of the “long odds” of being saved as if salvation were some arbirtary lottery that God holds at the end of one’s earthly life. That thinking misses the point. He is NOT saying that “1 in tens of thousands” are actually saved because God grades on a curve. He is not suggesting that those few who are saved are saved completely at random. He is simply pointing out the fact that most people aren’t willing to make the sacrafices to choose God over the world and that, after a lifetime of living selfishly, VERY few people turn away from the world and toward God at the 11th hour. It would seem that many of us are carried to hell by sheer momentum and force of habit.
The thing about it though is that it is totally in OUR control (with God’s help of course). The “Why bother? We’re all screwed.” attitude plays right into the hands of the enemy. That’s exactly what he wants us to think and, unfortunately, many of us do.
Is the sermon very scary? Definitely. It makes me realize the urgency of getting to know God as best I can and making Him my true first priority before my whole life has been wasted on myself and my frivolous evil desires.

First, thank you. I very much appreciate this dialogue when presented from a standpoint of understanding and intellect (it’s the take or leave it attitude I find troubling)

Having said that, I understand your point. But, what troubles me is not so much how this applies to me. I understand your point that this is not “at random”. That we have a say in the outcome (most say all the say). But, if most priests are damned (the sermon) then first, why am I to believe I truly have a say? Wouldn’t it be unitellctual to assume that the majority of priest (at least) believe they are doing what it takes to get to heaven? If they believe they are on the right path, then how does that differ from me believing I may be on the right path?

But further to the point (my point), how am I to live with any comfort when the vast majority of my loved ones simply never seem to gice this a passing thought. With odds being as poor as the sermon states, they are almost assuradly damned. Given th description of hell (refer to previous post), is I am truly a comapssionate person, how can I go on knowing they may (most assuradely) are going to suffer this fate? Let alone me?

Here is where I find this whole matter a bit foolish. Most people who respond seem to respons matter-of-factly. Meaning ( hey they chose it themselves, so what!)

It is they, who make the point almost tenable (if you know what I mean).

 

[sullivan1213]

First, thank you. I very much appreciate this dialogue when presented from a standpoint of understanding and intellect (it’s the take or leave it attitude I find troubling)

Having said that, I understand your point. But, what troubles me is not so much how this applies to me. I understand your point that this is not “at random”. That we have a say in the outcome (most say all the say). But, if most priests are damned (the sermon) then first, why am I to believe I truly have a say? Wouldn’t it be unitellctual to assume that the majority of priest (at least) believe they are doing what it takes to get to heaven? If they believe they are on the right path, then how does that differ from me believing I may be on the right path?

But further to the point (my point), how am I to live with any comfort when the vast majority of my loved ones simply never seem to gice this a passing thought. With odds being as poor as the sermon states, they are almost assuradly damned. Given th description of hell (refer to previous post), is I am truly a comapssionate person, how can I go on knowing they may (most assuradely) are going to suffer this fate? Let alone me?

Here is where I find this whole matter a bit foolish. Most people who respond seem to respons matter-of-factly. Meaning ( hey they chose it themselves, so what!)

It is they, who make the point almost tenable (if you know what I mean).

I don’t know if I would call it “unintellectual” to assume that the large number of priests who are damned (according to the sermon) believe that they are doing what it takes to get to heaven. Let’s keep a couple things in mind though. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. Luke 12:48 I think it is a very safe assumption that someone who has undergone seminary formation and ordination has been given much. They are given those powers to return sight to the blind, cleanse lepers, heal the sick, set captives free and raise the dead from a spiritual (and sometimes physical) perspective. Of all people on earth, these will be expected to be the MOST fruitful. If they, in light of that, neglect their vocations in favor of whatever worldly desire they may have would they not be judged more harshly than anyone else based upon the spiritual privelege they enjoy?

What I’m saying in a very long-winded way is that it’s easier for a priest to go to hell than probably anyone else on earth. The idea that the majority of them do (the sermon) is not all that hard to believe nor does it make me despair of my own salvation. If most doctors were 400 lb chain smokers who died of heart attacks before age 45, I’d still try to maintain a healthy lifestyle foir myself.

Now, to your 2nd paragraph. I find your discomfort comforting (if that makes any sense). If you could have someone tell you that many of your own family members (and mine) were in hell by their own choice and remain comforted, you would be a sick individual. I don’t think God put us here to be comforted. He put us here to fight and to pray and, most of all, to trust Him. You can’t save your family or your friends from hell if they are on their way there. Neither can I. But we HAVE to hope in God’s mercy. We can’t just assume, because of the statistics given in a sermon a couple of hundred years ago, that everyone we ever knew is in hell. The only way any of us can go through life is to do OUR part, strive (with God’s help) to be the people He made us to be, and pray and sacrafice for our loved ones. It may not seem like much but that’s all the little flower did and look what happened for her.

It’s not the matter that’s foolish. Quite the opposite. The matter is one of life and death. The foolish part is the way some people look at it. “Too bad, so sad, they’re in hell, the end.” Sheesh!!!

Trust God, pray and don’t lose hope. He’s not watching us with disinterested eyes. He loves us.

 

[Mijoy2]

I don’t know if I would call it “unintellectual” to assume that the large number of priests who are damned (according to the sermon) believe that they are doing what it takes to get to heaven. Let’s keep a couple things in mind though. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. Luke 12:48 I think it is a very safe assumption that someone who has undergone seminary formation and ordination has been given much. They are given those powers to return sight to the blind, cleanse lepers, heal the sick, set captives free and raise the dead from a spiritual (and sometimes physical) perspective. Of all people on earth, these will be expected to be the MOST fruitful. If they, in light of that, neglect their vocations in favor of whatever worldly desire they may have would they not be judged more harshly than anyone else based upon the spiritual privelege they enjoy?

What I’m saying in a very long-winded way is that it’s easier for a priest to go to hell than probably anyone else on earth. The idea that the majority of them do (the sermon) is not all that hard to believe nor does it make me despair of my own salvation. If most doctors were 400 lb chain smokers who died of heart attacks before age 45, I’d still try to maintain a healthy lifestyle foir myself.

Now, to your 2nd paragraph. I find your discomfort comforting (if that makes any sense). If you could have someone tell you that many of your own family members (and mine) were in hell by their own choice and remain comforted, you would be a sick individual. I don’t think God put us here to be comforted. He put us here to fight and to pray and, most of all, to trust Him. You can’t save your family or your friends from hell if they are on their way there. Neither can I. But we HAVE to hope in God’s mercy. We can’t just assume, because of the statistics given in a sermon a couple of hundred years ago, that everyone we ever knew is in hell. The only way any of us can go through life is to do OUR part, strive (with God’s help) to be the people He made us to be, and pray and sacrafice for our loved ones. It may not seem like much but that’s all the little flower did and look what happened for her.

It’s not the matter that’s foolish. Quite the opposite. The matter is one of life and death. The foolish part is the way some people look at it. “Too bad, so sad, they’re in hell, the end.” Sheesh!!!

Trust God, pray and don’t lose hope. He’s not watching us with disinterested eyes. He loves us.

Yes, I need to hold to this advice first, because it feels right, second, because I have little choice.

What is distirbing to me, is how the chuch doesn’t seem to speak loud and clear about this distressing subject. One can read a sermon such as this, or listen to Pope JPII words on this, and the two differ so greatly. Yet, the first subject is already a saint and the second likely to become one.

The church may speak the objective truth, as we are taught. However, the objective truth on matter that are under the catagory of “mystery”, can differ tremendously. This is a painful reality of which only some seem to understand and have the courage to speak of.

 

[sullivan1213]

Yes, I need to hold to this advice first, because it feels right, second, because I have little choice.

What is distirbing to me, is how the chuch doesn’t seem to speak loud and clear about this distressing subject. One can read a sermon such as this, or listen to Pope JPII words on this, and the two differ so greatly. Yet, the first subject is already a saint and the second likely to become one.

The church may speak the objective truth, as we are taught. However, the objective truth on matter that are under the catagory of “mystery”, can differ tremendously. This is a painful reality of which only some seem to understand and have the courage to speak of.

I don’t think that the sermon and JPII necessarily contradict one another. That’s like saying that a child’s mother contradicts herself because today she speaks encouraging words to motivate her child to learn and grow way but yesterday she scolded him when he misbehaved. The church is our mother and she must, at times, correct her children sharply. It may sound harsh but it is for our own good.

As to the church speaking loud and clear on this subject I don’t think she ever will. The church will, as we all should, hold out hope in God’s mercy. I love that about the catholic church. Over the years she has proclaimed thousands of saints and blesseds but never (to my knowledge) has she declared a soul to be definitively damned.

Just try to remember St. Peter when he walked out to Jesus on the water. he sank when he took his eyes off Jesus and saw the waves. All this statistical damnation stuff…WAVES. Stop looking at it and focus on Jesus.

God bless,

 

[blessedstar]

I will only say that a soul that is afraid of God does not know Love because there is no need to be afraid of God who is Love and so Love knows no fear. So why are you afraid? Are you afraid because you are a sinner? Then that is natural. We should all be afraid of offending God but we should not be afraid of God. But then who can hold their hand up and say they have never sinned? No man nor woman or child can do this whether they are Baptised or not. So in this case all would be damned by their own conscience as God damns nor condemns no-one.

Yet love desires Love because in the first place Love desired to draw souls close to Him so that they too may love one another as He has loved them and foremostly that they may love God.

My Lord Jesus Christ did not die upon the Cross for countless sinners to fall into hell because they made bad confessions or lacked as a Priest or did any other number of innumerable sins because my Lord Jesus bore all of this upon Himself. No, His mercy abounds even where sin increases and unfaulting He pursues that sinner even until their last breathe with the sweetest mercy imaginable, perfect is His mercy that the soul no longer tortures themself with their own sin, but trusts completely in His forgiveness and so the soul is thoroughly and completely turned about from their old paths and walks in the new and arduous path of the Lord Jesus that always leads that soul to their own calvary as they die to self.

No-one should be afraid of hell, but rather should take up their cross, see their sinful nature and gladly fight that battle despite themselves persevering until the end through prayer, faith and love always hoping in the Crucified and Risen Lord Jesus because even if that soul should have committed many grave sins and lived a terrible life, they may turn to Jesus with the last second of their life and He would take them to Himself.

God does not demand sacrifice, He demands mercy but how hard it is to be merciful to others when the wrong is very great, however this is what we are to do…

‘and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.’

This taken from the Our Father is what we must do to obtain mercy and we must not be afraid, but must bear patiently with each other, forgiving each other and try to understand people do things because they too are broken as yourself and are sinners and make great allowances whilst also attempting to guide them to the Truth that will heal them because we must correct each other, pray for each other and help each other to Heaven. This way we truly love each other because Jesus teaches the Truth, forgives and is merciful.

Do not be afraid but go to the Lord Jesus humbly for yourself and for your brother and sisters and treat each other mercifully. Give your life, your ‘self’ in prayer, make your life a prayer for others and give your life daily; this little martyrdom so closely united to the Cross of Jesus at every moment is the continuous calvary, the continuous prayer in constant ‘rememberance’ of Jesus making Jesus manifest to all we meet, know, hear of and come across.

Don’t worry about hell, this way you are a slave, but instead be a son or daughter of God by only desiring to serve because you love God.

How very great is God’s love and His mercy, the Good Thief and the Magdalen knew this.

In the Living Prayer of my life.

 

[the_phoenix]

What is disturbing to me, is how the chuch doesn’t seem to speak loud and clear about this distressing subject.

So true. The times you hear about Hell generally you can count on one hand.

I was blessed to have a strict nun named Sister Claudia for a teacher in 4th Grade. One day, she spent the whole class literally describing the terrors of Hell to us children. It made such an impression on me that years later, I wrote her a thank-you note for being such a good teacher.

There was years ago on EWTN an interview with a priest who had a near-death experience, was on the verge of going to Hell, but who was given a second chance … Anyone remember the details?

Father Robert J. Fox, who led a youth pilgrimage to Fatima, Portugal that I attended, shared your view as well, Mijoy. He stated that Our Lady of Fatima showed three shepherd children a vision of Hell, so there was no excuse for religion teachers to avoid mentioning Hell “because it might scare the children.”

Our Lady of Fatima’s advice? Prayer and penance … “So many souls go to Hell because they have no one to pray for them.”

~~ the phoenix