From a JW Daily Text

[Joelle_M]

This is a great point, especially the part in bold.

I’m a Catholic who was involved with the JWs over 30 years ago.

It occurred to me that if I accept the JWs’ teachings, I’m saying that one man interpreting the KJV in the 1800s is right, but a long line of theologians and Bible scholars from orthodox Christianity have somehow been wrong all these years…

Exactly! And that there is what keeps me hanging on to my Catholic faith as hard as I can. I am full of doubts- full of questions. I go as far as to sometimes even question God’s existence, but then I try desperately to reign myself in again. I come from a very large family (my dad’s mom had 18 kids), we come from a long line of devout catholics. A few years ago an uncle of mine was approached by some Christian friends and he baught their beliefs. He’s now a born again Christian. He convinced many in my family to follow his lead… many of them have given up their catholic faith. My family has been ripped apart by it. Many who left our church no longer attend any church anymore… saying their Bibles are all that’s needed… because they can’t find a church that believes in all of the “truths” that have been revealed to them. It’s incredibly sad. I can’t help but think that if they had only looked into their faith just a little bit harder, had they put in just a fraction of the time studying their catholic faith, that they would never have left. God said there would be wolves in sheep’s clothing, to watch out… lest we be led astray. I just don’t understand how they can’t recognize that that’s exactly what happened to them.

I’m not saying they are bad people, they are good- God fearing people. They deserve the kingdom just as much as anyone else does. It just breaks my heart. Pray often for everyone around you.

 

[signit]

Exactly! And that there is what keeps me hanging on to my Catholic faith as hard as I can. I am full of doubts- full of questions. I go as far as to sometimes even question God’s existence, but then I try desperately to reign myself in again. I come from a very large family (my dad’s mom had 18 kids), we come from a long line of devout catholics. A few years ago an uncle of mine was approached by some Christian friends and he baught their beliefs. He’s now a born again Christian. He convinced many in my family to follow his lead… many of them have given up their catholic faith. My family has been ripped apart by it. Many who left our church no longer attend any church anymore… saying their Bibles are all that’s needed… because they can’t find a church that believes in all of the “truths” that have been revealed to them. It’s incredibly sad. I can’t help but think that if they had only looked into their faith just a little bit harder, had they put in just a fraction of the time studying their catholic faith, that they would never have left. God said there would be wolves in sheep’s clothing, to watch out… lest we be led astray. I just don’t understand how they can’t recognize that that’s exactly what happened to them.

That was me over 30 years ago.

I was just telling someone today, I was a “lazy Catholic” who didn’t know his faith well and certainly didn’t read the Bible. Suddenly someone’s preaching to me out of the Bible, and I’m amazed at their knowledge and go full speed into their teachings. I could be part of the “in” crowd in my town, one of the ones who “really” know the Bible truth, unlike all these mainstream Christians and their “false” religious beliefs. Today I have that same kind of passion for my own Catholic faith.

I’m not saying they are bad people, they are good- God fearing people. They deserve the kingdom just as much as anyone else does. It just breaks my heart. Pray often for everyone around you.

Oh, sure, they’re good people, and they’re doing their best, in their own way, to serve God.

But, at the same time, as a Catholic, I can’t be too pleased with Catholics giving up their beliefs and joining the JWs. And that’s an easy thing to do, especially if the Catholic isn’t particularly sophisticated, as I certainly wasn’t.

 

[Joelle_M]

That was me over 30 years ago.

I was just telling someone today, I was a “lazy Catholic” who didn’t know his faith well and certainly didn’t read the Bible. Suddenly someone’s preaching to me out of the Bible, and I’m amazed at their knowledge and go full speed into their teachings. I could be part of the “in” crowd in my town, one of the ones who “really” know the Bible truth, unlike all these mainstream Christians and their “false” religious beliefs. Today I have that same kind of passion for my own Catholic faith.

Oh, sure, they’re good people, and they’re doing their best, in their own way, to serve God.

But, at the same time, as a Catholic, I can’t be too pleased with Catholics giving up their beliefs and joining the JWs. And that’s an easy thing to do, especially if the Catholic isn’t particularly sophisticated, as I certainly wasn’t.

Oh man- I can so relate. This is honestly what I see having happened in my family. Although we were all taught about God, and went to church, and had all of the sacraments, I don’t think any of us were really encouraged to read the bible. Not that we were discouraged to- but it wasn’t something we did… as is the case with many Christian faiths. My uncle, who was devout, was pulled in by the knowledge that his christian friends showed him. He wasn’t educated enough to know how to refute their arguments. I really only started reading the bible here and there on my own a few years ago, I paired that with fasting (giving up phone games and Facebook for a while) and praying a daily rosary. Doing that- on my own lit me up inside. I really didn’t realize the powerful weapon the Bible is. I didn’t know how to read it- where to start… I thought it was just a whole bunch of ancient boring jibberish. It helped me realize just how lukewarm my faith had become. I had become very liberal, too accepting of society’s norms. My faith had become something completely different (as long as you Love God- you won’t be lost).

I’ve now done a few online bible studies and although I recognize that I still have a long way to go, I feel much more prepared to defend my faith. I recognize that my catholic church holds all of the answers I will ever need- it only requires some digging around to find the answers.

 

[ajcstr]

Soooo, I was listening to an mp3 I have by Fr Mitch Pacwa and he maid the point that the JW don’t acknowledge the different covenants so I am curious to know how you make out. In any event, any conclusion about the fate of Adam after his death would be pure speculation.

 

[Waynec]

Leading Question: A leading question or suggestive interrogation is a question that suggests the particular answer or contains the information the examiner is looking to have confirmed.

These questions are not designed for further discussion, they are designed by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to lead an individual into accepting their teachings as truth.

Perhaps in fairness to individual JW’s. But not in fairness to the Watchtower Society. They know exactly what they are doing.

Your’s is an interesting observation. I never thought of that.

 

[ajcstr]

Leading Question: A leading question or suggestive interrogation is a question that suggests the particular answer or contains the information the examiner is looking to have confirmed.

These questions are not designed for further discussion, they are designed by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to lead an individual into accepting their teachings as truth.

Perhaps in fairness to individual JW’s. But not in fairness to the Watchtower Society. They know exactly what they are doing.

Yes, agree 100%, if you look at the training, the door to door, the reports they need to submit etc, they are almost like a sales organization. They try to line you up with “yes” answers and lead you to a conclusion. The is also (to me) a juvenile quality about the leading questions in some of their literature.

 

[Waynec]

If eternal punishment is false simply because God didn’t directly tell Adam, then the same logic applies to the resurrection of the dead. Example using their own words……

How might we reason with an individual who claims that there is a resurrection from the dead? First, we could assure him that the wicked will be punished (2 Thess. 1:9). Then, we could have him read Genesis 2:16, 17, which shows that the penalty for sin is death. We might explain that by his sin, Adam caused the entire human race to be born as sinners (Rom. 5:12). But we can point out that God said nothing to Adam about being brought new life through Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:21). We could then ask, “If Adam and Eve were in danger of being returned to dust forever, would it not have been fair to tell them the truth about the resurrection of the dead?” (Luke 20:35). We could then read Genesis 3:19, where sentence was pronounced after their sin but nothing was said about resurrection. Instead, Adam was told that he would return to the dust. Would it not have been fair to let Adam know that a savior would come, and even though he returned to dust that it would be possible for him to be redeemed and resurrected to immortal glory? Would it have been fair to tell Adam that he would go back to the ground if he was really going to be resurrected again?

That’s a horribly bad argument that is actually challenging God’s sovereignty.

Along with physical bodily death as punishment for sin, the book of Revelation speaks of another “death” and even identifies it as “the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire” (Rev 20:14-15). The beast and the false prophet, “while still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake”, but others were physically killed before being thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 19:20-21). The devil and his followers from among the nations are also thrown into the lake of fire “where the beast and the false prophet already were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever”(Rev 20:8-10).

We also know that this is where all the condemned go ”who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). And we are also told that they "shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest…” (Rev. 14:10-11). (Note: All scripture quotes are from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society New World Translation)

How can they be “tormented day and night forever and ever and… have no rest”, if they no longer exist?

Most of the problem with the JW’s in this regard is they really don’t understand “soul” and “spirit”. For example from their Watchtower publication “What Does the Bible Really Teach?”: According to John 4:24, ”God is a spirit…”. It does not say that God has a spirit, but that he IS a spirit. By their own definition, they would have to say that Jehovah God has no feeling and cannot think because he is just an impersonal force like electricity. They do believe that the Holy Spirit is just a “force” (easily shown to be false), but this would have to be applied to Jehovah God according to their definition and according to John 4:24. They are seriously being misguided.

They have a very materialistic view of man because they don’t know what “spirit” is. Since man is purely physical from their perspective, if he is thrown into a lake of fire he will burn up and cannot survive this. Thus he is annihilated. Eternal punishment will not make sense unless they learn to understand the nature of “spirit” IMO…

I find this to be very good. I hope my friend will read it. Thanks to all for the responses

 

[ajcstr]

It is interesting because the NWT uses pretty much the same language (they use “the Grave” for “Death and Hades” but everything else is similar), so I am not sure how they deny the eternal punishment.

 

[signit]

Soooo, I was listening to an mp3 I have by Fr Mitch Pacwa and he maid the point that the JW don’t acknowledge the different covenants so I am curious to know how you make out. In any event, any conclusion about the fate of Adam after his death would be pure speculation.

This is true, at least to some extent.

Here’s a publication from the Knights of Columbus, from 1963, now in the public domain.

ia801406.us.archive.org/9/items/SomeBibleBeliefsHaveToBeWrong/Some_Bible_Beliefs_Have_To_Be_Wrong.pdf

According to the chapter starting on page 12, the JWs don’t fully take into account the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. They don’t enforce the Jewish Sabbath or dietary laws in their entirety, but they use passages from the Old Testament to support their teachings on the afterlife, whereas Catholics believe that these passages reflect imperfect knowledge of the afterlife.

And, of course, they still obey the dietary law prohibiting eating blood and apply it to blood transfusions. They believe that the prohibition applies to Christians based on a mention of blood in the Book of Acts.

 

[DCNBILL]

We might rephrase a certain parable this way:

**A lone traveler was assaulted by highway robbers who left him to die alongside the road. A Catholic later passed by this injured man, but offered him no help.
Then along came an Anglican (that’s me), and he also failed to assist.
Finally a Jehovah’s Witness arrived, took pity on the bloodied fellow and carried him to a place of refuge. **

**I had a guest at my home whom I later found out was a JW, and who also was a convicted felon for his refusal to serve in in the US military.
Since I served the USA in an illegal war that caused the deaths of millions of Asians, I consider that JW to be a better Christian than myself.

You won’t find any JWs working at Lawrence Livermore in CA or at the National Security Campus in MO, much less at an ICBM complex or on an SSBN.
But Catholics and Anglicans may work at those places, no questions asked by their respective religious authorities.

So you see my point? Before we start beating up on strange sects about their aberrant belief systems, we ought to take a good look at our ownselves. **

I do not know if this is common but I was chastised by my pastor very candidly when I informed him that I was contemplating going to work for a drug company that happened to manufacture contraceptives along with many other product lines, even though they were made at a completely different location. Needless to say I did not take that job.

 

[ajcstr]

This is true, at least to some extent.

Here’s a publication from the Knights of Columbus, from 1963, now in the public domain.

ia801406.us.archive.org/9/items/SomeBibleBeliefsHaveToBeWrong/Some_Bible_Beliefs_Have_To_Be_Wrong.pdf

According to the chapter starting on page 12, the JWs don’t fully take into account the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. They don’t enforce the Jewish Sabbath or dietary laws in their entirety, but they use passages from the Old Testament to support their teachings on the afterlife, whereas Catholics believe that these passages reflect imperfect knowledge of the afterlife.

And, of course, they still obey the dietary law prohibiting eating blood and apply it to blood transfusions. They believe that the prohibition applies to Christians based on a mention of blood in the Book of Acts.

They don’t celebrate the Jewish feasts like Passover to they?

 

[signit]

They don’t celebrate the Jewish feasts like Passover to they?

No; however, they have the “Lord’s Supper,” also called the “Memorial of Jesus’s death.” They have it about the time of Easter or Passover.

In their words:

jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/lords-supper/

Only the ones who are going to heaven (a small minority) actually partake in the bread and wine; the ones who are going to have eternal life on earth do not.

 

[Waynec]

It is interesting because the NWT uses pretty much the same language (they use “the Grave” for “Death and Hades” but everything else is similar), so I am not sure how they deny the eternal punishment.

They say because God’s gift is eternal life and God wants all good things for us. So eternal punishment to them goes against the gift of eternal life. God would never want or allow a fiery eternal punishment which is true. We do that to ourselves by our disobedience.

They say the punishment and the only punishment for sin is the death of the body.

They can’t or refuse to understand that the body is just a shell for the soul and that the soul never dies. So until they receive the gift of supernatural faith they will never come to understand that the soul is immortal.

It is impossible to make any sense of their beliefs.

Just my thoughts.

 

[yellowbird]

It is impossible to make any sense of their beliefs.

.

As a former JW - I agree with you.

 

[ajcstr]

Only the ones who are going to heaven (a small minority) actually partake in the bread and wine; the ones who are going to have eternal life on earth do not.

Have they backed off the doctrine that the 144,000 was complete in 1934 or somewhere around then. Judge Rutherford had this revelation?

 

[ajcstr]

It is impossible to make any sense of their beliefs.

Just my thoughts.

Their view is that any “mysteries” are pagan infusions to Christianity, so they seek to have a “physical” explanation for everything. I think that goes back to their Adventist roots. I don’t know how they ever took off using the King James Version because there is so much Trinitarian language in that translation.

 

[signit]

Have they backed off the doctrine that the 144,000 was complete in 1934 or somewhere around then. Judge Rutherford had this revelation?

Apparently the 144,000 has opened up again.

From The Watchtower, May 1, 2007:

wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007327

It says, “especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935” but “On the other hand, as time has gone by, some Christians baptized after 1935 have had witness borne to them that they have the heavenly hope. (Romans 8:16, 17) Thus, it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends.”

A Catholic book on the Revelation:

kofc.org/un/en/resources/cis/cis351.pdf

Of course we Catholics believe that the number 144,000 is only symbolic. On page 39 it explains where the number came from.

 

[signit]

I don’t know how they ever took off using the King James Version because there is so much Trinitarian language in that translation.

It’s the version their founder used. It’s the version they typically used until the early 1960s when they came out with their own version.

At the same time, my JW friends said that their teachings could be found in any version of the Bible. They had a booklet apparently aimed at Catholics which refers to only Catholic versions of the Bible.

 

[ajcstr]

It’s the version their founder used. It’s the version they typically used until the early 1960s when they came out with their own version.

At the same time, my JW friends said that their teachings could be found in any version of the Bible. They had a booklet apparently aimed at Catholics which refers to only Catholic versions of the Bible.

But in the NWT, they wiped out all references to Jesus divinity. In the KJV, The Word was God, the angels worship Jesus, etc. So how were they able to dispute the Trinity? Its a little easier to say all the other versions are corrupt, but if their own version contained Trinitarian language how were they able to dispute it.

Though one time I asked if Jesus is “a god” is he a false god since there is only one true God? The answer I got was “Well, Agrippa spoke as a god too”.

 

[signit]

But in the NWT, they wiped out all references to Jesus divinity. In the KJV, The Word was God, the angels worship Jesus, etc. So how were they able to dispute the Trinity? Its a little easier to say all the other versions are corrupt, but if their own version contained Trinitarian language how were they able to dispute it…

They “explain them away.”

strictlygenteel.co.uk/tracts/trinity.pdf

Here they explain away four passages that seem to support the Trinity.

I’ll agree with them on 1 John 5:7 as that is not in the Catholic Bible.

Interesting; during my involvement one of their publications used Matthew 24:36 to “disprove” the Trinity, which says that only the Father, not the Son or anyone else knows the end time. But that seems to contradict another of their teachings, their prediction of the end time.

And, on the subject of the angels “worshiping” Jesus, their reply to that was that it’s only “relative” worship.

Obviously there are tons of passages in the Bible that demonstrate the Trinity by showing that Jesus has characteristics only God has (Jesus is worshiped, Jesus is the creator, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, etc."),