From a JW Daily Text

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Waynec

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This is rather long. I didn’t know how to respond to this knowing that the JW’s don’t believe in the immortality of the soul. This is from their daily text reading for April 19 I added the texts below for convenience. Any help will be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Tuesday, April 19
He reasoned with them from the Scriptures.—Acts 17:2.

How might we reason with an individual who feels that bad people should be tormented forever in hellfire? First, we could assure him that the wicked will be punished. (2 Thess. 1:9) Then, we could have him read Genesis 2:16, 17, which shows that the penalty for sin is death. We might explain that by his sin, Adam caused the entire human race to be born as sinners. (Rom. 5:12) But we can point out that God said nothing about being punished in hellfire. We could then ask, “If Adam and Eve were in danger of being tormented forever, would it not have been fair to warn them of that?” We could then read Genesis 3:19, where sentence was pronounced after their sin but nothing was said about hellfire. Instead, Adam was told that he would return to the dust. We might ask, “Would it have been fair to tell Adam that he would go back to the ground if he was really going to a fiery hell?” That may cause the person to think more deeply on this subject.

Acts 17.2And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

2Thes1.9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Gen2>16,17And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Rom.5.12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Gen3.19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
 
First, who would you be responding too?

Second, I could be way off but I never remember ever being taught that Adam was/was not sent to hell for his sin. So this is a little of a stretch for them to say that. So because God seemingly did not “warn” Adam of Hell, it must not exist even though Jesus warns us over a dozen times? The way I look at it (and this is my fallible reasoning) Hell may not have even been an option for Adam and Eve because they were under a different covenant than we are. Prior to Moses there wasn’t even a law, so really we don’t know what happened to the ancients after death.

Also, the Bible can’t be read like stereo instructions. Why look in Genesis for hell when its so clear in the NT ? Though I never did a word study on Hell/Hades/Gehenna in the NWT, I would imagine it renders those as “the grave” or something like that.

Their founder did not believe in hell, its as simple as that.
 
I feel mildly confused here. I feel like whoever made this argument made a really weak argument. They can’t possibly assume there is no hell just because Adam wasn’t warned about it in Genesis? For a second, I assumed JW’s must not read the new testament… but a quick search in Google told me they do. They use their own bible, but can use a standard protestant bible as well… I wonder what they think Jesus was saying- when again and again He mentions the place “where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?” Or did the founder of this religion just remove all of the obvious references of hell from his version of the Bible to suit his beliefs?
 
We might rephrase a certain parable this way:

**A lone traveler was assaulted by highway robbers who left him to die alongside the road. A Catholic later passed by this injured man, but offered him no help.
Then along came an Anglican (that’s me), and he also failed to assist.
Finally a Jehovah’s Witness arrived, took pity on the bloodied fellow and carried him to a place of refuge. **

**I had a guest at my home whom I later found out was a JW, and who also was a convicted felon for his refusal to serve in in the US military.
Since I served the USA in an illegal war that caused the deaths of millions of Asians, I consider that JW to be a better Christian than myself.

You won’t find any JWs working at Lawrence Livermore in CA or at the National Security Campus in MO, much less at an ICBM complex or on an SSBN.
But Catholics and Anglicans may work at those places, no questions asked by their respective religious authorities.

So you see my point? Before we start beating up on strange sects about their aberrant belief systems, we ought to take a good look at our ownselves. **
 
First, who would you be responding too?

Second, I could be way off but I never remember ever being taught that Adam was/was not sent to hell for his sin. So this is a little of a stretch for them to say that. So because God seemingly did not “warn” Adam of Hell, it must not exist even though Jesus warns us over a dozen times? The way I look at it (and this is my fallible reasoning) Hell may not have even been an option for Adam and Eve because they were under a different covenant than we are. Prior to Moses there wasn’t even a law, so really we don’t know what happened to the ancients after death.

Also, the Bible can’t be read like stereo instructions. Why look in Genesis for hell when its so clear in the NT ? Though I never did a word study on Hell/Hades/Gehenna in the NWT, I would imagine it renders those as “the grave” or something like that.

Their founder did not believe in hell, its as simple as that.
I would be responding to my JW friend and I like your response. Thanks
 
I feel mildly confused here. I feel like whoever made this argument made a really weak argument. They can’t possibly assume there is no hell just because Adam wasn’t warned about it in Genesis? For a second, I assumed JW’s must not read the new testament… but a quick search in Google told me they do. They use their own bible, but can use a standard protestant bible as well… I wonder what they think Jesus was saying- when again and again He mentions the place “where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?” Or did the founder of this religion just remove all of the obvious references of hell from his version of the Bible to suit his beliefs?
How do we know that Adam wasn’t warned about Hell before he sinned. He had infused knowledge and he probably knew much more than we will ever know. He and Eve thought they would become like God and maybe didn’t fear it like they should have. JWs have their own version of the Bible and its nothing like the true one! We can deceive ourselves into believing anything. That’s why we NEED the Catholic Church to guide us in all truths.God Bless, Memaw
 
I feel mildly confused here. I feel like whoever made this argument made a really weak argument. They can’t possibly assume there is no hell just because Adam wasn’t warned about it in Genesis? For a second, I assumed JW’s must not read the new testament… but a quick search in Google told me they do. They use their own bible, but can use a standard protestant bible as well… I wonder what they think Jesus was saying- when again and again He mentions the place “where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?” Or did the founder of this religion just remove all of the obvious references of hell from his version of the Bible to suit his beliefs?
My biggest problem with my friend is that they do not believe in the immortality of the soul. So when she reads perished or destruction she sees annihilation. She says that if we are separated from God by being in hell there is no possible way for our soul to exist apart from God. God is not a just God if there is no punishment for our sins. She thinks annihilation is punishment enough. I say if one is annihilated one doesn’t exist so one doesn’t know one is being punished.
I counter with eternal life promised by God. Eternal life is just that eternal. Whether we are in hell, heaven or purgatory. She says life is a gift from God and that God is good so He would never allow a punishment such as hell. And round and round we go.
 
We might rephrase a certain parable this way:

**A lone traveler was assaulted by highway robbers who left him to die alongside the road. A Catholic later passed by this injured man, but offered him no help.
Then along came an Anglican (that’s me), and he also failed to assist.
Finally a Jehovah’s Witness arrived, took pity on the bloodied fellow and carried him to a place of refuge. **

**I had a guest at my home whom I later found out was a JW, and who also was a convicted felon for his refusal to serve in in the US military.
Since I served the USA in an illegal war that caused the deaths of millions of Asians, I consider that JW to be a better Christian than myself.

You won’t find any JWs working at Lawrence Livermore in CA or at the National Security Campus in MO, much less at an ICBM complex or on an SSBN.
But Catholics and Anglicans may work at those places, no questions asked by their respective religious authorities.

So you see my point? Before we start beating up on strange sects about their aberrant belief systems, we ought to take a good look at our ownselves. **
You miss my point. I don’t want to beat up on her I just want to be able to intelligently make my point as to what Catholic believe and why. Her reasoning goes against every thing I have been taught as a Catholic.
 
How do we know that Adam wasn’t warned about Hell before he sinned. He had infused knowledge and he probably knew much more than we will ever know. He and Eve thought they would become like God and maybe didn’t fear it like they should have. JWs have their own version of the Bible and its nothing like the true one! We can deceive ourselves into believing anything. That’s why we NEED the Catholic Church to guide us in all truths.God Bless, Memaw
A good point. I never thought about Adam being infused with knowledge.
 
My biggest problem with my friend is that they do not believe in the immortality of the soul. So when she reads perished or destruction she sees annihilation. She says that if we are separated from God by being in hell there is no possible way for our soul to exist apart from God. God is not a just God if there is no punishment for our sins. She thinks annihilation is punishment enough. I say if one is annihilated one doesn’t exist so one doesn’t know one is being punished.
I counter with eternal life promised by God. Eternal life is just that eternal. Whether we are in hell, heaven or purgatory. She says life is a gift from God and that God is good so He would never allow a punishment such as hell. And round and round we go.
Yeah- I can see where it could be a never ending conversation, especially where the old testament is concerned. The truth is nobody know whether or not Adam had been warned. Nor does it say whether or not he is damned (or does it?). The only thing I do know that it says is that God told Adam if he ate the fruit “he would surely die”. When he ate it- he didn’t physically drop dead- he wasnt zapped into dust- which clearly indicates that God meant a spiritual death. The death of his soul- he fell out of God’s grace. That’s essentially what Hell is- it’s the absence of God. It’s a place of eternal torment because God doesn’t dwell there. When we sin, knowingly sin, we deny God. We break his laws and thus turn our backs on Him. He loves us enough to respect our decisions and honours His promise to allow us free will. God doesn’t cast us down to hell- He simply let’s us choose it for ourselves.

Does their version of the Bible include the new testament? If it does, it must have drastic differences from ours- because that’s where all of the references about hell are (all of the ones I know of anyway).
 
I would be responding to my JW friend and I like your response. Thanks
I feel for you, some of the things they come up when I talk to them at the door with just leave me scratching my head. This would be right up there.
 
Does their version of the Bible include the new testament? If it does, it must have drastic differences from ours- because that’s where all of the references about hell are (all of the ones I know of anyway).
Yes it does contain the new testament. It contains the same books as any protestant bible. It’s interesting to me that they used the KJV before they published their own version and that is the version that contains the word “hell” more than any other translation.

Basically their founder was a Seventh Day Adventist so a lot of their beliefs come from that tradition.
 
I found this as a reply on another board which may clarify their belief:

“Jesus used the word GEHENNA to symbolize complete destruction, or death with no hope of a resurrection, burning people forever and ever is not something a loving God would dream of and niether would his son.”

“The word HELL (SHEOL HADES) on the other hand is nothing more than the common grave.”

“We believe in Hell according to what the bible says hell is;” the common grave”. We do not believe the wicked are tortured endlessly in a hellfire because it is not scriptural, nor in accordance with God’s personality.”
 
I found this as a reply on another board which may clarify their belief:

“Jesus used the word GEHENNA to symbolize complete destruction, or death with no hope of a resurrection, burning people forever and ever is not something a loving God would dream of and niether would his son.”

“The word HELL (SHEOL HADES) on the other hand is nothing more than the common grave.”

“We believe in Hell according to what the bible says hell is;” the common grave”. We do not believe the wicked are tortured endlessly in a hellfire because it is not scriptural, nor in accordance with God’s personality.”
So it all boils down to how someone read it… and chose to word it. I’m really not well versed in other christian beliefs- so pardon my ignorance (I am really more focused on learning about Catholicism and try to stay away from situations that may confuse me).
Does the KJV not use the words “where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”? Or do they simply use the word hell, or Gehenna? Or maybe it doesn’t much matter anymore, since they (JW) have printed their own Bible now anyway.

I don’t get it. The thing I love about Catholicism is it’s rich history. It’s easy enough for the simplest of minds, but deep enough to drown any scholar. Our faith goes back to the beginning- and has made huge efforts to not only study the words- but the contexts they imply by studying the languages they were written in. I’ll be the first to admit that some Christian sects can make some very compelling arguments- but I’d make a really weak non catholic… it would tear me up knowing my Christian church came along thousands of years later. That my book was written by the Catholic Church. I can’t grasp how anyone could think that God sent His Holy Spirit to inspire the apostles to write the Bible, and that He would somehow allow them to misunderstand his will and allow it to be mis-taught.
 
I don’t get it. The thing I love about Catholicism is it’s rich history. It’s easy enough for the simplest of minds, but deep enough to drown any scholar. Our faith goes back to the beginning- and has made huge efforts to not only study the words- but the contexts they imply by studying the languages they were written in. I’ll be the first to admit that some Christian sects can make some very compelling arguments- but I’d make a really weak non catholic… it would tear me up knowing my Christian church came along thousands of years later. That my book was written by the Catholic Church. I can’t grasp how anyone could think that God sent His Holy Spirit to inspire the apostles to write the Bible, and that He would somehow allow them to misunderstand his will and allow it to be mis-taught.
This is a great point, especially the part in bold.

I’m a Catholic who was involved with the JWs over 30 years ago.

It occurred to me that if I accept the JWs’ teachings, I’m saying that one man interpreting the KJV in the 1800s is right, but a long line of theologians and Bible scholars from orthodox Christianity have somehow been wrong all these years…
 
If eternal punishment is false simply because God didn’t directly tell Adam, then the same logic applies to the resurrection of the dead. Example using their own words……

How might we reason with an individual who claims that there is a resurrection from the dead? First, we could assure him that the wicked will be punished (2 Thess. 1:9). Then, we could have him read Genesis 2:16, 17, which shows that the penalty for sin is death. We might explain that by his sin, Adam caused the entire human race to be born as sinners (Rom. 5:12). But we can point out that God said nothing to Adam about being brought new life through Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:21). We could then ask, “If Adam and Eve were in danger of being returned to dust forever, would it not have been fair to tell them the truth about the resurrection of the dead?” (Luke 20:35). We could then read Genesis 3:19, where sentence was pronounced after their sin but nothing was said about resurrection. Instead, Adam was told that he would return to the dust. Would it not have been fair to let Adam know that a savior would come, and even though he returned to dust that it would be possible for him to be redeemed and resurrected to immortal glory? Would it have been fair to tell Adam that he would go back to the ground if he was really going to be resurrected again?

That’s a horribly bad argument that is actually challenging God’s sovereignty.

Along with physical bodily death as punishment for sin, the book of Revelation speaks of another “death” and even identifies it as “the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire” (Rev 20:14-15). The beast and the false prophet, “while still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake”, but others were physically killed before being thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 19:20-21). The devil and his followers from among the nations are also thrown into the lake of fire “where the beast and the false prophet already were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever”(Rev 20:8-10).

We also know that this is where all the condemned go ”who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). And we are also told that they "shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest…” (Rev. 14:10-11). (Note: All scripture quotes are from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society New World Translation)

How can they be “tormented day and night forever and ever and… have no rest”, if they no longer exist?

Most of the problem with the JW’s in this regard is they really don’t understand “soul” and “spirit”. For example from their Watchtower publication “What Does the Bible Really Teach?”:
”Spirit” thus refers to an invisible force (the spark of life) that animates all living creatures (p.210). Also, like electricity, the spirit has no feeling and cannot think. It is an impersonal force (p.211).
According to John 4:24, ”God is a spirit…”. It does not say that God has a spirit, but that he IS a spirit. By their own definition, they would have to say that Jehovah God has no feeling and cannot think because he is just an impersonal force like electricity. They do believe that the Holy Spirit is just a “force” (easily shown to be false), but this would have to be applied to Jehovah God according to their definition and according to John 4:24. They are seriously being misguided.

They have a very materialistic view of man because they don’t know what “spirit” is. Since man is purely physical from their perspective, if he is thrown into a lake of fire he will burn up and cannot survive this. Thus he is annihilated. Eternal punishment will not make sense unless they learn to understand the nature of “spirit” IMO…
 
How might we reason with an individual who claims that there is a resurrection from the dead? First, we could assure him that the wicked will be punished (2 Thess. 1:9). Then, we could have him read Genesis 2:16, 17, which shows that the penalty for sin is death. We might explain that by his sin, Adam caused the entire human race to be born as sinners (Rom. 5:12). But we can point out that God said nothing to Adam about being brought new life through Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:21). We could then ask, “If Adam and Eve were in danger of being returned to dust forever, would it not have been fair to tell them the truth about the resurrection of the dead?” (Luke 20:35). We could then read Genesis 3:19, where sentence was pronounced after their sin but nothing was said about resurrection. Instead, Adam was told that he would return to the dust. Would it not have been fair to let Adam know that a savior would come, and even though he returned to dust that it would be possible for him to be redeemed and resurrected to immortal glory? Would it have been fair to tell Adam that he would go back to the ground if he was really going to be resurrected again?

Maybe in fairness to the them the questions at the end of the paragraph are meant to be for further discussion?
 
Maybe in fairness to the them the questions at the end of the paragraph are meant to be for further discussion?
Leading Question: A leading question or suggestive interrogation is a question that suggests the particular answer or contains the information the examiner is looking to have confirmed.

These questions are not designed for further discussion, they are designed by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to lead an individual into accepting their teachings as truth.

Perhaps in fairness to individual JW’s. But not in fairness to the Watchtower Society. They know exactly what they are doing.
 
We also know that this is where all the condemned go ”who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). And we are also told that they "shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest…” (Rev. 14:10-11). (Note: All scripture quotes are from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society New World Translation)

How can they be “tormented day and night forever and ever and… have no rest”, if they no longer exist?
Good post.

On the subject of “torment,” here’s a JW pamphlet from 1951 on hell which purports to teach that there’s no conscious punishment for the wicked.

strictlygenteel.co.uk/tracts/hellfire.pdf

According to the pamphlet, “torment” really doesn’t mean “torment” because “In Bible times jailers were called ‘tormentors.’” Therefore, “it means that they will be bound and restrained in the perpetual captivity of death.” Obviously that’s a stretch.

When I was involved with the JWs I picked up on the fact that their book would have a Bible quote or two that seemed to support their belief (e.g., no eternal punishment), and then it would jump through hoops trying to “explain away” the many passages that don’t support that belief.
 
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