From a Moral standpoint

[Iowa_Mike]

No, they don’t, Mike. It is true that a heretic does condemn themselves by their actions, but I think if you were to look into the history of this term, you would find that the vast majority of persons so guilty do not think of themselves, or label themselves heretics. It becomes your label when you apply it to another person.

You seem to feel a strong need to call names to such persons.

It certainly appears to outsiders as that is the case, no doubt. What do you hope to gain by trying to pull up such weeds?

I’m not calling anyone names…I’m not making jugements…it’s very simple. If you don’t accept the teachings of the Church…as I previously defined by the infallible teaching of Vatican I…you are not Catholic.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

And that is just the point, isn’t it, Mike? In order to pronounce someone an heretic, you must be able to read their thoughts. You must be able to make a discernment that they are willful and obstinant.

That is why Jesus taught us not to try to uproot the weeds, but to let them grow together until the harvest, and HE will sort them out.

Pronoucing someone a heretic is the same as saying they are hellbound.

Sorry guan…I don’t need to read Nancy Pelosi’s thoughts to know that she is a heretic. She has earned that label by her total and complete and public denial of Catholic teaching in spite of the teaching of her bishop and the clear teaching of the Church. If you believe her refusal to accept Church teaching on abortion is OK and that she remains a good Catholic… that’s between you and God but I would not, were I you, I would not go around supporting her position or you will join in her heresy.

God Bless,

Iowa MJike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

And that is just the point, isn’t it, Mike? In order to pronounce someone an heretic, you must be able to read their thoughts. You must be able to make a discernment that they are willful and obstinant.

That is why Jesus taught us not to try to uproot the weeds, but to let them grow together until the harvest, and HE will sort them out.

Pronoucing someone a heretic is the same as saying they are hellbound.

No you don’t…and Jesus did not teach not to try to uproot weeds, he taught just the opposite. You need to separate the wheat from the chaff, something you seem unable to

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

No, they don’t, Mike. It is true that a heretic does condemn themselves by their actions, but I think if you were to look into the history of this term, you would find that the vast majority of persons so guilty do not think of themselves, or label themselves heretics. It becomes your label when you apply it to another person.

You seem to feel a strong need to call names to such persons.

It certainly appears to outsiders as that is the case, no doubt. What do you hope to gain by trying to pull up such weeds?

Clarity for the benefit of those observing.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Yes, I agree that the teaching on heresy is quite clear. However, just because a person embraces heresies, that does not qualify them to be a heretic. Some people embrace and live heretical positions because they don’t know any better. T-One just gave a good example above about the Church’s teaching on contraception. She did not understand the nature of the prohibition. I bet she is also right that maybe 10% of Catholics have read Humanae Vitae.

You have stated that you feel entitled to label people as heretics, but you cannot read the heart of a person. It is not for you to say whether they are willful and obstinant. All you can know is that they appear to act and speak as if they are. For all you know, they could be role playing here.

You are equivocating…now you are making assumptions…if a person is publically in dissent that is a problem they need to resolve with the Church… For those of us observing they are outside of Church teaching.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[guanophore]

I’m not calling anyone names…I’m not making jugements…it’s very simple. If you don’t accept the teachings of the Church…as I previously defined by the infallible teaching of Vatican I…you are not Catholic.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

Yes, there are many people who have lost their Catholicity by picking and choosing what they would like to believe and reject. I used to be one of them, so I can speak from experience on that point. I did not understand what the Apostles taught, that Jesus founded a Church with ONE FAITH, and that this faith is unified, whole, and indivisible.

I think there are some people, though who have been baptized Catholic, and never catechized, or were improperly catechized. For such persons, it is not a matter of “rejecting” the Teachings as much as it is never having embraced them. As has been pointed out on many of these threads, such persons, by virtue of their baptism, are Catholic, but do not posess Catholic faith.

 

[guanophore]

Sorry guan…I don’t need to read Nancy Pelosi’s thoughts to know that she is a heretic. She has earned that label by her total and complete and public denial of Catholic teaching in spite of the teaching of her bishop and the clear teaching of the Church. If you believe her refusal to accept Church teaching on abortion is OK and that she remains a good Catholic… that’s between you and God but I would not, were I you, I would not go around supporting her position or you will join in her heresy.

God Bless,

Iowa MJike

Mike, I understand from my dialogue with you that you feel divinely appointed to call such persons heretics. Indeed, as a Catholic that is your perogative. It is not a perogative that is appropriate for you to exercise here on CAF, though. You are putting CAF at risk, because it is a violation of tax status agreements, and you are putting your own posting privileges at risk. I strongly urge you to take the direction of a moderator on this point.

However, I will say, for the record, that I do not support or excuse any public figure who openly claims to be Catholic and rejects the teaching of the Church. I think it causes grave scandal to the Church, as well as to their own souls.

 

[guanophore]

No you don’t…and Jesus did not teach not to try to uproot weeds, he taught just the opposite. You need to separate the wheat from the chaff, something you seem unable to

What do you think He was talking about, when he told the parable of the wheat and the tares?

Clarity for the benefit of those observing.

You and I are in agreement that this needs to be done. It can be done without calling people names, and it can be done within the boundaries of the forum rules.

if a person is publically in dissent that is a problem they need to resolve with the Church… For those of us observing they are outside of Church teaching.

I think both things are true, don’t you?

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Yes, there are many people who have lost their Catholicity by picking and choosing what they would like to believe and reject. I used to be one of them, so I can speak from experience on that point. I did not understand what the Apostles taught, that Jesus founded a Church with ONE FAITH, and that this faith is unified, whole, and indivisible.

I think there are some people, though who have been baptized Catholic, and never catechized, or were improperly catechized. For such persons, it is not a matter of “rejecting” the Teachings as much as it is never having embraced them. As has been pointed out on many of these threads, such persons, by virtue of their baptism, are Catholic, but do not posess Catholic faith.

No, the teaching of the Church is quite clear. You are contriving circumstances to support you agument. People who can claim invincible ignorance will be granted the Lord’s infinate mercy. In this way I agree with you. On the other hand it is our duty as faithful Catholics with well informed consciences to educate those who are in error, not pander to them. We need to defend the faith not, in the name of tolerence, allow error to continue.

By your own words, “by virtue of their baptism they are Catholic, but do not posess the Catholic faith” you point to an oxymoron, for you cannot be Catholic and not believe the faith at the same time.

The Catholic Church’s recognizes baptisms done in Protestant faith communities as valid but does not recognize them as Catholic.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[guanophore]

No, the teaching of the Church is quite clear.

They seem clear to me now because I have taken it upon myself to educate myself in the faith. But they were not so clear to me in my youth. When I encountered some bible thumping Baptists as a teen, and picked up the Scriptures for the first time, it was not difficult for them to convince me that the Catholic Church was the 'whore of Babylon" because I was never taught to read and study the Scriptures. I only knew a small part of the Baltimore Catechism, and I was still an infant in the faith.

I was also thrown into a lack of clarity growing up in a “Catholic” home that did not seem to practice the faith between Sunday Masses.

This sort of disconnect makes the teachings of the Church very unclear.

You are contriving circumstances to support you agument. People who can claim invincible ignorance will be granted the Lord’s infinate mercy. In this way I agree with you. On the other hand it is our duty as faithful Catholics with well informed consciences to educate those who are in error, not pander to them. We need to defend the faith not, in the name of tolerence, allow error to continue.

Of course you are right. If I did not believe this, I would not be here on CAF. However, it is possible to inform, educate, and correct without calling names to people.

By your own words, "by virtue of their baptism they are Catholic, but do not posess the Catholic faith" you point to an oxymoron, for you cannot be Catholic and not believe the faith at the same time.

It is, indeed, a grave disconnect. However, parishes are full of presumed “Catholics”, most of whom are in a state of disobedience to the Teachings of the Church.

The Catholic Church's recognizes baptisms done in Protestant faith communities as valid but does not recognize them as Catholic.

They are valid because they intend to perform what the Catholic Sacrament performs. The vast majority of “cafeteria Catholics” result from the same conditions that resulted in my wandering away from the faith as a teen. They are baptized by Catholic parents, sent to Catechism, many of them confirmed, yet never grasped many basic elements of the faith.
They are nominal (in name only) “Catholics”.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

What makes you think this happens at all? The Magesterium gives direction to the bishops, and they to their diocese. I can assure you that there are no directives from “the Vatican” (not sure what you think that means) to ignore sin, or to fail to confront mortal sin in the congregation.

No, T-One. But by making such assertions, it is incumbent upon you to provide evidence.

It no more needs to be in the “forefront” than any other areas of people’s lives that require sanctification. It seems to be in your forefront, for some reason.

The Vatican is the corporate office of Catholicism. Of course they would periodically send out directives to their bishops and priests as to what issues it considers important and worthy of focus at any given time.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Yes, there are many people who have lost their Catholicity by picking and choosing what they would like to believe and reject. I used to be one of them, so I can speak from experience on that point. I did not understand what the Apostles taught, that Jesus founded a Church with ONE FAITH, and that this faith is unified, whole, and indivisible.

I think there are some people, though who have been baptized Catholic, and never catechized, or were improperly catechized. For such persons, it is not a matter of “rejecting” the Teachings as much as it is never having embraced them. As has been pointed out on many of these threads, such persons, by virtue of their baptism, are Catholic, but do not posess Catholic faith.

Those people who can claim ‘invincible ignorance’ will receive the infinite mercy of Jesus. That’s is pretty hard to claim in this day and age sepecially on a forum where we talk in some depth about the teachings of the Church.

Your notion that you can be Catholic and but not possess the Catholic Faith is an oxymoron. The teachings of the Church are quite clear on this matter as I have cited to you repeatedly.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Mike, I understand from my dialogue with you that you feel divinely appointed to call such persons heretics. Indeed, as a Catholic that is your perogative. It is not a perogative that is appropriate for you to exercise here on CAF, though. You are putting CAF at risk, because it is a violation of tax status agreements, and you are putting your own posting privileges at risk. I strongly urge you to take the direction of a moderator on this point.

However, I will say, for the record, that I do not support or excuse any public figure who openly claims to be Catholic and rejects the teaching of the Church. I think it causes grave scandal to the Church, as well as to their own souls.

Now your a tax lawyer???

God Bless,

Iowa Mike