From a Skeptic

[Joseph_L_Varga]

A little about myself… my name is Jordan Woods and I’m from California. I was born and raised a Christian my entire life and around the age of 19-20 **I started questioning and doubting the existence of God **and now I’d most likely be labeled a skeptic. I’ve never visited a Catholic church or even read from their Bible or really even researched anything about them honestly. I saw a movie today called “The Rite” that has to do with a Priest and exorcism and **it really led me to think that if exorcisms are real and the devil is real, then God has to be real … **I don’t know, it just struck a cord with me… any advice?

Jordan, I came under the influence of atheistic materialism when I was your age. I was desperately trying to find out, is there any evidence of the supernatural in the world, something that would point to the existence of God, to the existence of a supernatural world? Well, my research lead me to discover that the Catholic Church is chock full of miracles that refute the stance of atheistic materialism and prove that God, and the supernatural world, do exist.

Before I was ready to accept the eyewitness testimonies of the Apostles, who had seen Jesus Christ crucified and rise from death on the third day, I discovered evidence of many many miracles happening throughout the history of the Catholic Church, including recent and extremely well-documented miracles during the 20th century. For an example check out this thread, post number 40:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7687033#post7687033

Also, google “Fatima miracle of the sun”. That was a huge miracle - witnessed by seventy thousand people in 1917. It was photographed, published and discussed in newspapers, and described by a score of eyewitnesses, some of whom only recently deceased in the 1980s, 1990s. Sister Lucia, to whom Holy Mary appeared several times at Fatima, died recently in 2005, at the age of 98. If you want a major miracle, research Fatima. Fatima has it all. Miracles, many eyewitnesses, and fulfilled prophecies. Our Lady (Holy Mary) prophesied in the summer of 1917, before the Bolshevik (Communist) revolution in Russia, that Russia would turn against God, and spread her errors around the world, leading to persecutions of the faithful, and much suffering in the world. She also prophesied in 1917, while World War I was still underway, that the war would end soon, but an even worse war would break out later on, if people didn’t stop offending God. That war was World War II, and before it started, people in the Northern Hemisphere witnessed a sign from the sky (an unusual type of aurora borealis), a sign that was also predicted by Our Lady.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

A little about myself… my name is Jordan Woods and I’m from California. I was born and raised a Christian my entire life and around the age of 19-20 I started questioning and doubting the existence of God and now I’d most likely be labeled a skeptic. I’ve never visited a Catholic church or even read from their Bible or really even researched anything about them honestly. I saw a movie today called “The Rite” that has to do with a Priest and exorcism and it really led me to think that if exorcisms are real and **the devil is real, then God has to be real **… I don’t know, it just struck a cord with me… any advice?

That’s kind of how I got there. I see the devil and his handiwork every day.

 

[EricFilmer]

So, just so we’re all clear here, you consider yourself to be a “skeptic,” but watching a movie – and doing absolutely no actual research – has made you think that there just might be something to this whole Catholic thing.

Okie dokie…

If he is making inquiries on a Catholic forum then he is at least doing some sort of research.

Also AT, seeing as you have now made 1777 posts on CAF throughout a year and a half, one could argue that you, too, may think that “there just might be something to this whole Catholic thing.”

 

[Randy_Carson]

So, just so we’re all clear here, you consider yourself to be a “skeptic,” but watching a movie – and doing absolutely no actual research – has made you think that there just might be something to this whole Catholic thing.

Okie dokie…

And to make sure we’re REALLY clear here, you’re a self-described “AntiTheist” who wants to be sure that anyone who is open to exploring the Catholic faith is discouraged from doing so.

Why does it bother you that someone else wants to “do some actual research”, weigh the evidence, and decide for himself?

Be careful…Jesus gave the following warning:

Matthew 18:6
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

 

[boonert]

My advice Jordan would be to just talk to God. It doesn’t have to be a formal prayer. Just open up and speak your mind. Tell him you have doubts. Tell him you seek answers. God will answer. Obviously he won’t actually actually speak to you in the sense that you hear an actual voice but you will hear him if you allow yourself to believe. It might not be the first time you talk to him but if continue the dialog eventually God will give you answers you seek.

 

[Tomster]

And to make sure we’re REALLY clear here, you’re a self-described “AntiTheist” who wants to be sure that anyone who is open to exploring the Catholic faith is discouraged from doing so.

Why does it bother you that someone else wants to “do some actual research”, weigh the evidence, and decide for himself?

Be careful…Jesus gave the following warning:

Matthew 18:6
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

okie dokie . . . .

Thanks Randy! :tiphat:

 

[Tomster]

It would be evidence for something, certainly. I don’t exactly know how you’d conclude that it was the devil of Christian mythology and not some evil spirit from some other mythology and/or just a mental patient spouting random things that your confirmation bias makes you think are “predictions.”

Not necessarily. I don’t think that any supernatural forces exist, but it’s possible that there could just be an evil force and not a good one.

John 8:44

 

[YankeeRC]

So, just so we’re all clear here, you consider yourself to be a “skeptic,” but watching a movie – and doing absolutely no actual research – has made you think that there just might be something to this whole Catholic thing.

Okie dokie…

I agree with what poster Joseph L Varga said above. Quite honestly, although it does not involve demons, this kind of conversion is essentially what happened and continues to happen to non-belivers with the events of Fatima. So really, why not with seeing the depiction of an exorcism? All faith has to begin with a belief at some point.

 

[AntiTheist]

If he is making inquiries on a Catholic forum then he is at least doing some sort of research.

Sure. But he came to the conclusion that there was something to Catholicism before he started posting here. Hence, his asking about attending church right away before learning a single thing at all.

Also AT, seeing as you have now made 1777 posts on CAF throughout a year and a half, one could argue that you, too, may think that “there just might be something to this whole Catholic thing.”

One could, if one wanted to be completely and utterly wrong. For one thing, I don’t go around asking questions about joining up, and I certainly don’t suggest that supernatural creatures might exist because I saw them on the silver screen. Instead, my posts point out flaws with arguments made by religious posters, indicating that I strongly disagree with those positions.

Randy:

And to make sure we’re REALLY clear here, you’re a self-described “AntiTheist” who wants to be sure that anyone who is open to exploring the Catholic faith is discouraged from doing so.

Well, you’re apparently not “REALLY” clear at all. I certainly would not discourage anyone at all from learning about anything that they feel like.

My objection to this particular poster is the fact that he describes himself as a “skeptic” who nonetheless was inspired to think that a claim might be true merely by seeing it depicted in a movie. Since his actions do not match his professed beliefs, I wanted to inquire to make sure that I was understanding his nonsensical position.

If, however, he had made an OP that read, “I’m a sincere seeker looking for information on the Catholic Church,” without trying to make it sound like he’s some kind of “skeptic,” I would have ignored it.

I can’t help but wonder what this kid is going to do when he sees The Mighty Thor this summer. Norse pagan forums…watch out!

 

[Windfish]

A little about myself… my name is Jordan Woods and I’m from California. I was born and raised a Christian my entire life and around the age of 19-20 I started questioning and doubting the existence of God and now I’d most likely be labeled a skeptic. I’ve never visited a Catholic church or even read from their Bible or really even researched anything about them honestly. I saw a movie today called “The Rite” that has to do with a Priest and exorcism and it really led me to think that if exorcisms are real and the devil is real, then God has to be real … I don’t know, it just struck a cord with me… any advice?

The advice I would give depends on what kind of person you are. If you are of an intellectual bent, than I would encourage you to keep searching and consume as many (good) Catholic resources. And to that end, there is A LOT to consume! If you want to start with the existence of God, this a pretty good outline that would give you a sense of the scope of it all (though, keep in mind, this is from a Protestant Christian source, so I would probably change it to keep it more in line with Catholic sensibility): doxazotheos.com/?page_id=96

A poster above recommended Dr. Edward Feser. He’s good, but keep in mind that his works are just tastes of Aquinas’ body of work. Expounded properly, Aquinas’ proofs prove the existence of God, but there are also many other philosophical proofs. Be careful to avoid the poor renditions of the proofs, though, and go after the very best.

And all of the above is just a start!

 

[Shannon9791]

A little about myself… my name is Jordan Woods and I’m from California. I was born and raised a Christian my entire life and around the age of 19-20 I started questioning and doubting the existence of God and now I’d most likely be labeled a skeptic. I’ve never visited a Catholic church or even read from their Bible or really even researched anything about them honestly. I saw a movie today called “The Rite” that has to do with a Priest and exorcism and it really led me to think that if exorcisms are real and the devil is real, then God has to be real … I don’t know, it just struck a cord with me… any advice?

First off let me give you my two pennies about this. The movie you watched, while a work of fiction, was based on an actual series of events regarding a priest who was commissioned by his bishop to become an exorcist. I’ve heard good things about the movie, but I haven’t watched it yet. What I have done, though, was read the book. I suggest before you do anything else, you read that book as well, it’s got the same title as the movie, so it shouldn’t be hard to find. After you tear through that (it shouldn’t take you more than a few days, it’s a quick read) THEN pick up both the Catechism and the Bible and use both of them to find your way home.

 

[rick43235]

I can’t help but wonder what this kid is going to do when he sees The Mighty Thor this summer. Norse pagan forums…watch out!

 

[EricFilmer]

Sure. But he came to the conclusion that there was something to Catholicism before he started posting here. Hence, his asking about attending church right away before learning a single thing at all.

He made no conclusions in any of his posts. He placed a couple of “if…then” propositions and asked for our (name removed by moderator)ut. The nature of his posts is curiosity, not conviction. He asked about a dress code, he did not ask about registering in a parish or attending RCIA.

EricFilmer;7687205:

Also AT, seeing as you have now made 1777 posts on CAF throughout a year and a half, one could argue that you, too, may think that “there just might be something to this whole Catholic thing.”

One could, if one wanted to be completely and utterly wrong.

The evidence suggests otherwise, and the evidence I’m citing is (according to the stats in your profile) the fact that you average 3.25 posts per day, and have now presented 1778 posts on CAF. When one considers that participating in these forums involves reading other people’s material and formulating responses, you probably spend an average of 30 minutes to an hour or more each day on CAF. Consider that in light of your signature line which states that talking about God is talking about “nothing.” So am I to believe that you dedicated all that time over the past year and half simply to talk about “nothing?”
Don’t kid yourself.

…my posts point out flaws with arguments made by religious posters, indicating that I strongly disagree with those positions.

I don’t believe in fairies, and I have spent exactly zero minutes discussing it. Were I to do otherwise, I would find it to be a complete and utter waste of time, and time is a very precious commodity. How do you justify the time you’ve spent here talking about “nothing”, especially seeing as you believe that your time here on earth is the totality of your entire existence? I simply put this out there as “food for thought” and I consider it as evidence that you really don’t think of this as talking about “nothing”, regardless of what your Thomas Jefferson quote says.

For one thing, I don’t go around asking questions about joining up

Clarification: The OP has not asked any questions about “joining up”, he just inquired about visiting a Catholic church and wondered if there was a dress code. Once again, based on his statements this is about curiosity rather than conviction.

And as for you, it is more accurate for you to say, “I don’t go around asking questions about joining up yet.”

Sure, you call yourself “AntiTheist” today,
but one day you’ll be attending a cursillo retreat while wearing a Pope Benedict XVI Fan Club tee-shirt and singing “Here I Am, Lord.”

Careful AT…pace yourself!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Sure. But he came to the conclusion that there was something to Catholicism before he started posting here. Hence, his asking about attending church right away before learning a single thing at all.

He became interested in learning about Catholicism. What better way to see what Catholics believe than by attending some of their services to see what goes on there?

Is this really so incomprehensible?

One could, if one wanted to be completely and utterly wrong. For one thing, I don’t go around asking questions about joining up, and I certainly don’t suggest that supernatural creatures might exist because I saw them on the silver screen. Instead, my posts point out flaws with arguments made by religious posters, indicating that I strongly disagree with those positions.

So, your reason for being here is to convince us to abandon Catholicism and/or to plant seeds of doubt into the minds of those who might be considering the faith? Is that about it? How’s that working out for you so far?

Randy: Well, you’re apparently not “REALLY” clear at all. I certainly would not discourage anyone at all from learning about anything that they feel like.

My objection to this particular poster is the fact that he describes himself as a “skeptic” who nonetheless was inspired to think that a claim might be true merely by seeing it depicted in a movie. Since his actions do not match his professed beliefs, I wanted to inquire to make sure that I was understanding his nonsensical position.

Gee, I began my inquiry into Catholicism after considering some of the lyrics of a few Beatles’ songs. Father McKenzie? Lady Madonna? What is all this about? Then there was Billy Joe’s “Only the Good Die Young”…hmmmm…what IS he talking about?

That was all God needed to get my attention.

If, however, he had made an OP that read, “I’m a sincere seeker looking for information on the Catholic Church,” without trying to make it sound like he’s some kind of “skeptic,” I would have ignored it.

I see. So, it’s not possible to have strong reservations about something yet still investigate it further? I seriously doubt that…but I’ll look into it.

 

[AntiTheist]

Consider that in light of your signature line which states that talking about God is talking about “nothing.” So am I to believe that you dedicated all that time over the past year and half simply to talk about “nothing?”

I was going to let this rather juvenile post of yours pass without comment, but I do want to point out the sloppiness of your thinking here.

Jefferson’s quote indicates that gods and other supernatural beings are nothing. But talking about claims of gods, arguments for gods, and flaws in those arguments is in fact talking about claims, arguments, and flaws.

That’s what I do on here. I’m uninterested in the supposed supernatural beings themselves: I don’t care how many angels can fit on the head of a pin or which member of the trinity has which powers or whatever. I do care very much about the claims, arguments, and flaws related to religions, which have a profound impact on the world in which I live.

How do you justify the time you’ve spent here talking about “nothing”, especially seeing as you believe that your time here on earth is the totality of your entire existence?

I enjoy talking about claims, arguments, and flaws related to religions. It’s one of my hobbies.

I consider it as evidence that you really don’t think of this as talking about “nothing”, regardless of what your Thomas Jefferson quote says.

Well, maybe now you’ve got a little food for thought of your own: talking about claims, arguments, and flaws related to religion isn’t talking about nothing.

[The OP] made no conclusions in any of his posts.

No, he didn’t – instead, he strongly implied that he reached the conclusion that the Catholic Church was worth investigating on the basis of a movie. No “skeptic” in his right mind would reach such a conclusion, so I pointed this out.

Again, if our friend simply tried to stop passing himself off as a “skeptic,” I wouldn’t have bothered commenting at all.

And as for you, it is more accurate for you to say, “I don’t go around asking questions about joining up yet.”

Sure, you call yourself “AntiTheist” today,
but one day you’ll be attending a cursillo retreat while wearing a Pope Benedict XVI Fan Club tee-shirt and singing “Here I Am, Lord.”

Careful AT…pace yourself!

That’s quite an interesting reality you’ve built inside your head. I suppose it’s no wonder that you prefer it to the real thing.

 

[EricFilmer]

I was going to let this rather juvenile post of yours pass without comment, but I do want to point out the sloppiness of your thinking here.

Ah yes, nothing like the dose of condescension that one comes to expect from an AntiTheist post.
But by all means, keep it up. That way I know that I am dialoging with the real AT and that you have not been, say, secretly abducted by some foreign enemy government and replaced with an imposter.

Jefferson’s quote indicates that gods and other supernatural beings are nothing. But talking about claims of gods, arguments for gods, and flaws in those arguments is in fact talking about claims, arguments, and flaws. That’s what I do on here. I’m uninterested in the supposed supernatural beings themselves: I don’t care how many angels can fit on the head of a pin or which member of the trinity has which powers or whatever. I do care very much about the claims, arguments, and flaws related to religions, which have a profound impact on the world in which I live.

Lots of different things have a profound impact on the world, which is why I watch the news and discuss current topics among family & friends. I think the same can be said for everyone. Economics impact the world you live in. How many economic forums do you participate on? And how much time do you spend on the internet discussing war? What about politics, medical discoveries, zoning laws, food safety, education, crime & law enforcement, pollution, agriculture, industry, taxes, immigration, renewable & non-renewable energy sources, and the national budget? All these things have a profound impact on the world in which you live (and being an atheist, the impact on your life from these things is far greater than the topic of religion). Obviously I don’t know whether or not you spend any time discussing these topics as well, but given the amount of time you spend on CAF, I’m guessing that these other things receive little, if any, of your online attention.

On the other hand, it seems that you feel strongly compelled to repeatedly discuss why you don’t believe in religion, which calls to mind the old saying (misquoted from Hamlet), “Methinks thou dost protest too much.” But more on that a little later.

I enjoy talking about claims, arguments, and flaws related to religions. It’s one of my hobbies.

Once again I say, “Don’t kid yourself.” For you, this isn’t a hobby, it’s an obsession. Participating on CAF may even be a full blown addiction for you. I’ll present a theory as to why. You soul is starved for spirituality and seeks discussions on it, while your mind rejects the validity of religious beliefs. Apologetic discussions become the compromise between the two.

Well, maybe now you’ve got a little food for thought of your own: talking about claims, arguments, and flaws related to religion isn’t talking about nothing.

Which was exactly my point; neither you nor I think that religious conversations are about nothing. And I submit that you actually think there is more to religion than you are willing to admit.

(Continued in my next post)

 

[EricFilmer]

(Continued…)

No, he didn’t – instead, he strongly implied that he reached the conclusion that the Catholic Church was worth investigating on the basis of a movie. No “skeptic” in his right mind would reach such a conclusion, so I pointed this out.

Out of curiosity, what do you think are acceptable reasons for a true skeptic to believe that the Catholic Church was worth investigating? Call me psychic, but I foresee that this is going to be an incredibly short list.

Again, if our friend simply tried to stop passing himself off as a “skeptic,” I wouldn’t have bothered commenting at all.

You act as if you own the copyright to the term “skeptic.” If the OP feels that he has been skeptical about religious claims in the past then he’s a skeptic. What does it matter if his level of skepticism does not match yours?

That’s quite an interesting reality you’ve built inside your head. I suppose it’s no wonder that you prefer it to the real thing.

“Built inside my head”? No, it comes from examining what you claim and what your behavior actually displays. This analysis is something that I like to call “evidence based inquiry.” Sound familiar? So I ask myself, why has AT been participating on CAF for a year and a half? What does the evidence show?

First of all, although I have not read all your posts, I can readily say that you are not here proselytizing for some atheist cause. After all, the mods take that sort of thing very seriously, and if you were proselytizing then you would have been banned long ago.

So I move onto another hypothesis: your participation on internet forums can be a hobby (as you claim), but a hobby, by definition, displays interest. Your amount of participation (and the amount of time and energy it requires) displays more than just common interest, but rather (as I stated previously) an obsession. The fact that you clearly said earlier that you “care very much” about your participation on CAF backs this up. Also, when considering my post-per-day statistic of 1.59 to your 3.25, I can see that your level of dedication to CAF is notably greater than my own.

In light of all this, your claim that your participation on CAF is just a hobby because you are interested in discussing the flaws of the arguments for religious beliefs does not truly account for the high degree of your participation. So the evidence points to what I stated earlier when I used the quote, “Methinks thou dost protest too much”. In other words, your conscious protests against the validity of Catholic beliefs displays a subconscious acceptance of these beliefs. Your protests are an attempt to convince yourself (and others) that what you inherently know to be true is actually false. But after all this time you have failed to convince yourself, so one wonders exactly how long you can hold out.

Which leads me to my final topic: The twin colors of the Vatican flag are, in heraldic terminology, gold and silver. But this simply means a kind of yellowish-orange and white. A good illustration of it, including its image of the papal tiara and the Keys of Peter, can be found here: mapsofworld.com/flags/vatican-city-flag.html
I’m posting this information now, as I know that it will be helpful for you when your future passionate fervor for Catholicism reaches the point that you want to paint the Vatican flag on the hood of your car.

 

[EricFilmer]

A little about myself… my name is Jordan Woods and I’m from California. I was born and raised a Christian my entire life and around the age of 19-20 I started questioning and doubting the existence of God and now I’d most likely be labeled a skeptic. I’ve never visited a Catholic church or even read from their Bible or really even researched anything about them honestly. I saw a movie today called “The Rite” that has to do with a Priest and exorcism and it really led me to think that if exorcisms are real and the devil is real, then God has to be real … I don’t know, it just struck a cord with me… any advice?

Jordan, I know that others have recommended that you read what the Catholic Catechism has to say about this (and I echo this recommendation as well), but did you have any specific questions that you would like to address in this thread concerning exorcisms, God & the devil? I will be happy to provide whatever information or feedback that I can.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I was going to let this rather juvenile post of yours pass without comment, but I do want to point out the sloppiness of your thinking here.

Jefferson’s quote indicates that gods and other supernatural beings are nothing. But talking about claims of gods, arguments for gods, and flaws in those arguments is in fact talking about claims, arguments, and flaws.

That’s what I do on here. I’m uninterested in the supposed supernatural beings themselves: I don’t care how many angels can fit on the head of a pin or which member of the trinity has which powers or whatever. I do care very much about the claims, arguments, and flaws related to religions, which have a profound impact on the world in which I live.

I enjoy talking about claims, arguments, and flaws related to religions. It’s one of my hobbies.

Well, maybe now you’ve got a little food for thought of your own: talking about claims, arguments, and flaws related to religion isn’t talking about nothing.

No, he didn’t – instead, he strongly implied that he reached the conclusion that the Catholic Church was worth investigating on the basis of a movie. No “skeptic” in his right mind would reach such a conclusion, so I pointed this out.

Again, if our friend simply tried to stop passing himself off as a “skeptic,” I wouldn’t have bothered commenting at all.

That’s quite an interesting reality you’ve built inside your head. I suppose it’s no wonder that you prefer it to the real thing.

Prove to me that YOU are real.

 

[DavidFilmer]

That’s quite an interesting reality you’ve built inside your head. I suppose it’s no wonder that you prefer it to the real thing.

But my brother does raise an interesting point. My posting frequency is 0.93 per day. Only a few hundred posts separate our total posting - and I’ve been around since 1994, five years longer than you have! At this rate, you will surpass me in total posts this summer.

It seems like a strange hobby to spend so much time and effort on a forum about something you don’t believe in. I don’t believe in alien UFOs, but I’ve never even thought about visiting a UFO forum, much less posting 3+ posts a day. And you’ve been here for more than a decade.

I think you are craving religion, and this is how you are getting your fix. Someday you will crave a more personal experience.