From Abel to the blood of Zechariah

[Valke2]

I’ll have to re-read H3eschel’s “the Prophets” but I don’t think Judaism teaches that any of the prophets were killed. If anyone knows different, I’d love to read about it.

 

[paarsurrey]

I don’t know the complete history of the people of Israel, because the Bible doesn’t provide us with that, so I can’t answer your question to your specifications.

I do know that after the kingdom of Israel divided into a northern kingdom and a southern kingdom, there were many corrupt kings who brought about the worship of idols. One instance is found in 1 Kings 18-19, where Jezebel, the wife of king Ahab, was killing the prophets of the LORD (cf. 1 Kings 18:4,13); eventually, Elijah alone remains (cf. 1 Kings 19:10).

Again, 2 Chronicles 24 records the stoning death of Zechariah, who prophesied for the LORD against the people.

How many Prophets did Jesus sent to the Jewish Clergy throughout history,from the time when he was addressing the Jewish clergy (in Matthew 23:34), and before that time, or after that time (three periods separately):
who were killed by the Jews Clergy?
who were crucified by the Jews Clergy?
who were flogged by Jews Clergy in their synagogues?
How many were pursued from town to town by the Jews Clergy?

Hi

Thank you for replying.

My submission is that Jesus was addressing the Jewish Clergy and accusing them of their faults, so he could not tell them things which were not in the OTBible and not in their knowledge, only then could the conversation be meaningful for a man of his status, but the fact is that there is very little in the OTBible, and or elsewhere with the Jews, as you would have observed yourselves
.
I think it is neither Jesus’ fault nor this verse is from him, this is something made up by the Scribe or somebody else who interfered with Matthew to serve some ulterior motive but failed.

It could be seen that this portion is not consistent with the rest of the text of the Chapter 23 of Matthew.

What is your honest opinion?

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

WHERE on earth did you hear such a bogus claim as that? Honestly, thats a huge lie on your part if you are just making that up. The historical records say he lived and died in the palestine region. **The historical testimony of many of the prophets being put to death **only supports the notion the same thing would happen to Jesus.

Hi

Thank you for responding, though angrily, nevermind you are welcome to differ and remain steadfast on you blind-faith. Presently the matter under discussion is what I emboldened in you post:

The historical testimony of many of the prophets being put to death

we are searching :

How many Prophets did Jesus sent to the Jewish Clergy throughout history,from the time when he was addressing the Jewish clergy (in Matthew 23:34), and before that time, or after that time (three periods separately):
who were killed by the Jews Clergy?
who were crucified by the Jews Clergy?
who were flogged by Jews Clergy in their synagogues?
How many were pursued from town to town by the Jews Clergy?

Kindly give your opinion and reply to the above questions.

Thanks

 

[Bennie_P]

From Commentary of John Wesley

Mat 23:35 - That upon you may come - The consequence of which will be, that upon you will come the vengeance of all the righteous blood shed on the earth - Zechariah the son of Barachiah - Termed Jehoiada, 2Ch_24:20, where the story is related: Ye slew - Ye make that murder also of your fathers your own, by imitating it: Between the temple - That is, the inner temple, and the altar - Which stood in the outer court. Our Lord seems to refer to this instance, rather than any other, because he was the last of the prophets on record that were slain by the Jews for reproving their wickedness: and because God’s requiring this blood as well as that of Abel, is particularly taken notice of in Scripture.

2Ch 24:20 The spirit of God then came upon Zacharias the son of Joiada the priest, and he stood in the sight of the people, and said to them: Thus saith the Lord God: Why transgress you the commandment of the Lord which will not be for your good, and have forsaken the Lord, to make him forsake you?
2Ch 24:21 And they gathered themselves together against him, and stoned him at the king’s commandment in the court of the house of the Lord.
Commentary-
2Ch 24:20 - Who stood - The people were assembled in the court of the temple, which they had not quite forsook, when Zechariah stood up in some of the desks that were in the court of the priests, and plainly told them their sin, and the consequences of it.
2Ch 24:21 - Stoned him - They stoned him immediately, without even colour of law; as horrid a piece of wickedness, as any we read of in all the history of the kings. That ever such a villainy should be committed, by men, by Israelites, in contempt and violation of everything that is just, honourable, and sacred! The Jews say, there were seven transgressions in one: They killed a priest, a prophet, a judge; they shed innocent blood; polluted the court of the temple, the Sabbath, and the day of expiation: for on that day, their tradition says, this happened.

 

[paarsurrey]

I’ll have to re-read H3eschel’s “the Prophets” but I don’t think Judaism teaches that any of the prophets were killed. If anyone knows different, I’d love to read about it.

Hi

I don’t know what is this H3eschel’ mentioned by you, I have never heard of it, there is no book in the OTBible with this name, I think. Is it some abbreviation?

Thanks for participation in the discussion.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Hi
Thank you for responding, though angrily, nevermind you are welcome to differ and remain steadfast on you blind-faith.

LOL, my blind faith…you finally show your true colors!
Every conversation I get in with you you dodge the questions and pretend like all is well.

You made a bogus claim that Jesus ended up in Kashmir and are brushing it off as if it never happened.

Presently the matter under discussion is what I emboldened in you post:

The historical testimony of many of the prophets being put to death

we are searching :
How many Prophets did Jesus sent to the Jewish Clergy throughout history,from the time when he was addressing the Jewish clergy (in Matthew 23:34), and before that time, or after that time (three periods separately):[1]
who were killed by the Jews Clergy? [2]
who were crucified by the Jews Clergy? [3]
who were flogged by Jews Clergy in their synagogues? [4]
How many were pursued from town to town by the Jews Clergy? [5] Kindly give your opinion and reply to the above questions.

[1] How many prophets did He send?..That number is unknown, there were many prophets who never wrote anything down but they were still sent to give oral messages.
1 After a long time, in the third year, the word of the LORD came to Elijah: “Go and present yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain on the land.” 2 So Elijah went to present himself to Ahab.
Now the famine was severe in Samaria, 3 and Ahab had summoned Obadiah, who was in charge of his palace. (Obadiah was a devout believer in the LORD. 4 While Jezebel was killing off the LORD’s prophets, Obadiah had taken a hundred prophets and hidden them in two caves, fifty in each, and had supplied them with food and water.) -1 Kings 18
[2] It depends on what you mean by “clergy”, I dont recall any Levitical priests doing any murder in the OT but in the NT the Pharisees and Sadducee’s certainly caused physical harm. It was mostly at the hands of kings.

[3] I have never heard of the Jews crucifying anyone, the only references I know of are of Jesus at the hands of the Romans.

[4] The ones that come to mind off the top of my head are Acts 5:40-41.

[5] I dont know how many were persecuted from town to town, but there are accounts of famous prophets having to be on the run all the time because their life was at risk.

Anyone who has even flipped through the Old Testament can see God’s messengers being persecuted.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Note that Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees at the time. I don’t think many of them were clergy. The priests were mostly Sadducees from what I have heard.

 

[Valke2]

Hi

I don’t know what is this H3eschel’ mentioned by you, I have never heard of it, there is no book in the OTBible with this name, I think. Is it some abbreviation?

Thanks for participation in the discussion.

HEschel is an author who wrote a book called “The Prophets” and he discusses each prophet.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

I started this thread: From Abel to the blood of Zechariah regarding Matthew 23:35-36, but later our attention was more focused on Matthew 23:34, to understand it more deeply, I have started a new thread:

Matthew 23:34 – Deep Bible Study
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2545077#post2545077

Please

Thanks

 

[Lev23]

Hi

Jesus was sent by God to admonish Jews or forewarn them that they were to be put to Wrath of God, unless they finally behaved well and accepted him a true Prophet and supported him in his endeavor to revive the Law of Moses. Since the decree was for the blood they had shed from Abel to Zechariah , so that meant that Jesus blood was not included in the punishment as per decree and Jesus was to be saved from death and beyond killing by hands of the Jews.

This was his prophecy in nutshell.

Thanks

Listen, I don’t know where you are getting this idea from, but it cannot be back by scripture found in either the catholic or protestant bibles, which in turn, was given to them from Israel herself.

Isaiah 53:5-6 tells us exactly why Jesus was crucifed, his blood shed. Compare that to 1Peter 2:24-25…

Now when you say Jews, I assume you mean Israel.

Show me any messianic prophecy in OT scripture were Israel was to be cut off forever or have wrath (name removed by moderator)uted on immediately from God for the killing of Jesus. Jeremiah 31, God says Israel will NEVER stop being a nation before him. Deut 18:15 tell the Israelites a prophet like Moses is coming, and they should listen to him. Well, when Jesus came all Israel did not hear him, but a remnant did, and they are the only nation that is promised to be fully restored at Jesus’ second coming.

This is prophecy in a nutshell.

The most religious leaders of Israel at that time shut the door to heaven for themselves and those that followed them. Jesus speaks of this in the Gospels. The keys were given to St.Peter and he kepted no one the God of Israel, read in Acts at Pentecost to the Jews and at Cornelious’ house for the Gentiles.

 

[paarsurrey]

Listen, I don’t know where you are getting this idea from.

Hi

I think I gave a reference from Jesus’ words as mentioned in Matthew 23:35-36

“35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.”

This is all mentioned in it, and one gets it from deep Bible study of the verses.

The them of Covenant is spread in the whole OTBible righ from Noah in Genesis, and to the time of Jesus.

Those who honour the Covenant and don’t change it, are honoured by GodAllahYHWH and those who disobey, change the Covenant or break it, they earn Wrath of GodAllahYHWH.

Please read intently, it is all there.

Kindly read my posts, as repeating them, is not appropriate.

Thanks

There is only one Covenant.
The covenant has been the same, as first time it is mentioned in Bible with reference to Noah; and from Noah to date, nobody could change it; if at all one could confirm it or revive it or face the Wrath of GodAllahYHWH.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Listen, I don’t know where you are getting this idea from, but it cannot be back by scripture found in either the catholic or protestant bibles, which in turn, was given to them from Israel herself.
. . …

SK - Sola Koran

 

[paarsurrey]

SK - Sola Koran

Hi

Thank you, nevertheless

The ultimate truth about Jesus is:
(Firstly), JesusYeshuaIssa did not leave anything revealed on him from GodAllahYHWH in the form of written stone tablets as was in case of Moses, (Secondly) or anything written by JesusYeshuaIssa himself when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, he died natural and peaceful death in Kashmir, India.
Jesus left nothing behind authenticated by him, in possession of the Church.
We do respect the NTGospels which (Thirdly) have account of Jesus life, but it does not have much utility for a non-Catholic, a book of history subject to scrutiny, internal as well as external, for each event for truth on merit

 

[paarsurrey]

what about a different interpretation? that Jesus’ blood will not bring punishment but salvation?

Hi

I think that is not possible, if that would have been the case, then Jesus would have not been forced to put on Cross, he would have voluntarily himself hanged on Cross, like Socrates, who sipped the poisonous cup as they say for himself. Here Jesus did not want it.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

I dont follow the question at all…what are you asking?

Hi

I think you have by now understood the question, otherwise, I would like to explain in detail.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

And I am not aware of any prophets that were killed by Jews. I could be mistaken.

Hi

I am of the same view as you have, that any Jew ever could kill a true Prophet of GodAllahYHWH. The ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH are under His special protection. But this is a point to be defended by the Catholics from OTBible and NTBible in the first place.

I appreciate your responsible and truthful approach.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,

Hi

To me, since Jews’ forefathers with their bad intentions attempted their utmost to kill the Prophets or character assasinate them, so their bad intention has been termed as if killing.

In Arabic a sister language of Hebrew and Aramaic which Jesus and Mary spoke the root q-t-l is used for killing a person and with engaging a person with the intention of killing by mere fighting also. So, this way they were being rightly indicted by Jesus, the true JudgeProphetMessenger of the Jews.

This is what I understand from it.

Thanks

 

[Dempsey1919]

remain steadfast on you blind-faith

You’re the one who follows a blind faith! I’ve been on these forums a short while and all I’ve seen from you is outright lies portrayed as facts.

I’ve asked you tons of questions and you have blatantly ignored them. You have NO EVIDENCE whatsoever to back up your claims.

I’m not wasting anymore of my time on you.

 

[inJESUS]

Hi

I think that is not possible, if that would have been the case, then Jesus would have not been forced to put on Cross, he would have voluntarily himself hanged on Cross, like Socrates, who sipped the poisonous cup as they say for himself. Here Jesus did not want it.

Thanks

who forced Him?