From Adam?

[Faith1960]

Note: This is not a debate. I want an answer to my quesion without all the usual arguing.

I just recently read something on CAF that said we must believe Eve was formed from Adam, but I believe that we came from previous life forms, and eventually were given souls, which is compatible with Humani Generis. Is it a fact that we must believe woman was formed from Adam and if so, any helpful explanations or theories on how it came about?

I just thought that maybe way down the line, at the very beginning of life, females came from males in some way and that eventually led to one thing then another, which eventually led to humans as we know them to be.

Helpful thoughts only.

 

[Jim_Baur]

I agree: I hate the arguments.

I have often pondered this quest.

In the Second Creation Accoutn, I have wondered if Eve is our wisdom–human wisdom.

This thought or OPINION is based on a man’s wife as taught in Wisdom literature.

Even in secular writings, wisdom is symbolized as a lady.

So, there is a real Eve in the Second Creation Account. If the OPINION is a little accurate, it is human wisdom that God makes in us. His wisdom, the Holy Spirit, is now given to us.

THANKS!

 

[Todd977]

Reading through paragraph 371 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, where the fashioning of Eve is mentioned, I get the impression that her being fashioned out of Adam’s rib is merely a literary devise used to convey the fact of Adam and Eve “sharing the same humanity” or, in other words, that Adam and Eve were the same species.

 

[dmar198]

Note: This is not a debate. I want an answer to my quesion without all the usual arguing.

I just recently read something on CAF that said we must believe Eve was formed from Adam, but I believe that we came from previous life forms, and eventually were given souls, which is compatible with Humani Generis. Is it a fact that we must believe woman was formed from Adam and if so, any helpful explanations or theories on how it came about?

I just thought that maybe way down the line, at the very beginning of life, females came from males in some way and that eventually led to one thing then another, which eventually led to humans as we know them to be.

Helpful thoughts only.

According to The Replies of the Pontifical Biblical Commission On questions of Sacred Scripture Translated by E. F. Sutcliffe, Catholics are required to believe in “the formation of the first woman from the first man.”

I don’t think this is incompatible with evolution because it only requires that it happened this one time. The Church obviously knows that women do not ordinarily develop out of men, so this must have been something like a miracle. But as Catholics, we believe God can cause miraculous events if He wants to, so I don’t see why there would be a problem. Does that sound reasonable to you?

 

[edwest2]

Note: This is not a debate. I want an answer to my quesion without all the usual arguing.

I just recently read something on CAF that said we must believe Eve was formed from Adam, but I believe that we came from previous life forms, and eventually were given souls, which is compatible with Humani Generis. Is it a fact that we must believe woman was formed from Adam and if so, any helpful explanations or theories on how it came about?

I just thought that maybe way down the line, at the very beginning of life, females came from males in some way and that eventually led to one thing then another, which eventually led to humans as we know them to be.

Helpful thoughts only.

Having read Humani Generis, and knowing that science cannot examine a soul, there is no scriptural or scientific support for this. An individual Adam and individual Eve are taught as the parents of all. The sufficient explanation is that God, being God, formed Eve from Adam’s side while he was in a deep sleep. Otherwise, why do we believe God created everything from literally nothing?

From Humani Generis:

“37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]”

It’s quite clear. By definition, science cannot be used to connect the soul to human beings, much less decide, without any evidence, that at some point in history God decided to drop souls into two almost humans.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Jon_S_1]

Reading through paragraph 371 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, where the fashioning of Eve is mentioned, I get the impression that her being fashioned out of Adam’s rib is merely a literary devise used to convey the fact of Adam and Eve “sharing the same humanity” or, in other words, that Adam and Eve were the same species.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Having read Humani Generis, and knowing that science cannot examine a soul, there is no scriptural or scientific support for this. An individual Adam and individual Eve are taught as the parents of all. The sufficient explanation is that God, being God, formed Eve from Adam’s side while he was in a deep sleep. Otherwise, why do we believe God created everything from literally nothing?

From Humani Generis:

“37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]”

It’s quite clear. By definition, science cannot be used to connect the soul to human beings, much less decide, without any evidence, that at some point in history God decided to drop souls into two almost humans.

God bless,
Ed

There is nothing here prohibiting the belief that God “breathed life” or placed a soul into two hominids making them "true humans "

I often wonder where Neanderthals fit into the equation for people that believe a literal young earth creation?

The OP wants no debate, so no need to answer that just throwing it out for consideration.

 

[Faith1960]

There is nothing here prohibiting the belief that God “breathed life” or placed a soul into two hominids making them "true humans "

I often wonder where Neanderthals fit into the equation for people that believe a literal young earth creation?

The OP wants no debate, so no need to answer that just throwing it out for consideration.

 

[Faith1960]

Reading through paragraph 371 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, where the fashioning of Eve is mentioned, I get the impression that her being fashioned out of Adam’s rib is merely a literary devise used to convey the fact of Adam and Eve “sharing the same humanity” or, in other words, that Adam and Eve were the same species.

That makes sense except the part about God “fashioning” the rib from Adam. My pastor said not to read Genesis literally and my Bible study teacher said the same thing more or less but then… Oh gosh, I’m so confused.

 

[Nelka]

Note: This is not a debate. I want an answer to my quesion without all the usual arguing.

Good luck!

I just recently read something on CAF that said we must believe Eve was formed from Adam, but I believe that we came from previous life forms, and eventually were given souls, which is compatible with Humani Generis. Is it a fact that we must believe woman was formed from Adam and if so, any helpful explanations or theories on how it came about?

I just thought that maybe way down the line, at the very beginning of life, females came from males in some way and that eventually led to one thing then another, which eventually led to humans as we know them to be.

Helpful thoughts only.

1 Corinthians 11:8-12 For man did not come from woman; no, woman came from man; nor was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man: and this is why it is right for a woman to wear on her head a sign of the authority over her, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, though woman is nothing without man, man is nothing without woman; and though woman came from man, so does every man come from a woman, and everything comes from God.

 

[Faith1960]

If I’m not mistaken, all fetuses start out female and later either remain female or become male, (if my science is correct), so I would think it would make more sense that if we were made from another person the male would be made from the female rather than the other way around.

 

[Jon_S_1]

If I’m not mistaken, all fetuses start out female and later either remain female or become male, (if my science is correct), so I would think it would make more sense that if we were made from another person the male would be made from the female rather than the other way around.

No that is not correct in humans.

Once an xy or xx chromosome combo is formed at conception there is only one possible outcome.

 

[PJM]

=Faith1960;11931050]Note: This is not a debate. I want an answer to my quesion without all the usual arguing.

I just recently read something on CAF that said we must believe Eve was formed from Adam, but I believe that we came from previous life forms, and eventually were given souls, which is compatible with Humani Generis. Is it a fact that we must believe woman was formed from Adam and if so, any helpful explanations or theories on how it came about?

I just thought that maybe way down the line, at the very beginning of life, females came from males in some way and that eventually led to one thing then another, which eventually led to humans as we know them to be.

Helpful thoughts only.

Faith, dear friend,

Your position of a Darwin evolution of man is NOT compatible with the teachings of the RCC.

Everyting, BUT MOST signifiantely MAN [humanity] is a DIRECT non-evolutionary CREATION of God:

Gen. 1: 26-28 is Literal in its teaching of this FACT>
“And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth”

Perhaps this explaintion will aid you:

Your position brings to mind two questions:

[1] Have you ever considered WHY we exist?

Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21
“And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. & This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise”

[2a] The Book of Genesis cleary sates that humanity Cf. “Is MADE in the Image and likeness of God”

Gen. 1: 26-27 “And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.”

Now God never showed “His face” [His person] in the Old Testament, but only as a voice, a flaming bush, a cloud, and so on. WHY? Because He IS a Spiritual Reality. John 4: 23-24 " But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth."

So then my friend this raises two additional questions:

HOW does humanity emulate our Spiritual God?

WHY does humanity resemble our Spiritual God?

[2 b] In the Universe their are BILLIONS of stars, galaxies and planets; BUT ONLY ONE; Planet earth can be PROVEN to support the life forms we are aware of.

On Planet Earth, with hundreds of thousands of “Living THINGS” ONLY ONE; only humanity can choose to rationaize, choose to love and or choose to hate: WHY IS THIS?

In order to rationalize, love or hate requires in an absoulate sense the following attributes:

a mind [not speaking here of the brain]

A intellect [not meaning ones "IQ]

and a freewill

All of these attributes are “spiritual things” LIKE OUR GOD; and are permantey attached to mans Soul [defined here as the source and activator of all life forms]

Like God who is ETERNAL; this “other self”; our Spiritual self cannot be killed and never dies. Its the part of us that WILL face Gods necessaryly Just and Fair Judgment; based on our lives decissions here on earth, while we still have our bodies; which, I remind you return to DUST when we die.

Genesis 3:19 “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.”

It is precisely the manner that humanity alone DOES emulate our God that REQUIRES God follow His owh physical laws of “Cause and effect” with actions DO cause consequences.

These Consequences MUST [fairness and Divine Justice] last for Eternity; and that is where Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are a critical part of God Plan for Creating man “in HIS Image.” Amen!

FROM the Catholic catechism:

375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”. This grace of original holiness was “to share in. . .divine life”.

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

While their NAMES may or may not have been “Adam and Eve”; their Creation directly by God, thier Grave Sin and its consequences is Catholic Doctrine.

God Bless you faith; your is a dnagerous position. Pray much.

Patrick

 

[Jon_S_1]

Faith, dear friend,

Your position of a Darwin evolution of man is NOT compatible with the teachings of the RCC.

Everyting, BUT MOST signifiantely MAN [humanity] is a DIRECT non-evolutionary CREATION of God:

Patrick

This is not the position of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church allows for this option or other options and remains quite open to the possibility that man evolved. The one thing we must believe is that Adam and Eve were the first Human Beings made in the image of God. This could have happened any number of ways. We cannot believe in polygenesim but we can believe that there were human like people of which Adam and Eve were selected by God to receive their soul and become our first parents.

I suggest you read the entirety of this EWTN article and the sources it quotes

In 1950, Pope Pius XII addressed the question of man’s origins more
specifically in his encyclical Humani Generis. With a few terse
paragraphs, he set forth the Church’s position, which we may summarize as
follows: 1. ** The question of the origin of man’s body from pre-
existing and living matter is a legitimate matter of inquiry for
natural science. Catholics are free to form their own opinions,** but
they should do so cautiously; they should not confuse fact with
conjecture, and they should respect the Church’s right to define matters
touching on Revelation. 2. Catholics must believe, however, that the
human soul was created immediately by God. Since the soul is a
spiritual substance it is not brought into being through transformation
of matter, but directly by God, whence the special uniqueness of each
person. 3. All men have descended from an individual, Adam, who has
transmitted original sin to all mankind. Catholics may not, therefore,
believe in “polygenism,” the scientific hypothesis that mankind
descended from a group of original humans.

So, from the Catholic point of view, the scientific questions of evolution
are largely left open to debate. Evolutionary hypotheses which attempt to
explain the development of living things may be accepted except where they
conflict with these few explicit truths.

This position clearly contrasts with that of many fundamentalist Protestant
sects. Lacking belief in the Church’s teaching authority, fundamentalists
have usually insisted on treating Genesis as a scientifically accurate, as
well as historically true, account. Unfortunately, this stance has often
appeared in the media as definitive Christian doctrine. Its details have
contrasted so sharply with established scientific knowledge that “Christian
belief” has been held in ridicule.

 

[Faith1960]

Faith, dear friend,

Your position of a Darwin evolution of man is NOT compatible with the teachings of the RCC.

Everyting, BUT MOST signifiantely MAN [humanity] is a DIRECT non-evolutionary CREATION of God:

Gen. 1: 26-28 is Literal in its teaching of this FACT>
“And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth”

Perhaps this explaintion will aid you:

Your position brings to mind two questions:

[1] Have you ever considered WHY we exist?

Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21
“And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. & This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise”

[2a] The Book of Genesis cleary sates that humanity Cf. “Is MADE in the Image and likeness of God”

Gen. 1: 26-27 “And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.”

Now God never showed “His face” [His person] in the Old Testament, but only as a voice, a flaming bush, a cloud, and so on. WHY? Because He IS a Spiritual Reality. John 4: 23-24 " But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth."

So then my friend this raises two additional questions:

HOW does humanity emulate our Spiritual God?

WHY does humanity resemble our Spiritual God?

[2 b] In the Universe their are BILLIONS of stars, galaxies and planets; BUT ONLY ONE; Planet earth can be PROVEN to support the life forms we are aware of.

On Planet Earth, with hundreds of thousands of “Living THINGS” ONLY ONE; only humanity can choose to rationaize, choose to love and or choose to hate: WHY IS THIS?

In order to rationalize, love or hate requires in an absoulate sense the following attributes:

a mind [not speaking here of the brain]

A intellect [not meaning ones "IQ]

and a freewill

All of these attributes are “spiritual things” LIKE OUR GOD; and are permantey attached to mans Soul [defined here as the source and activator of all life forms]

Like God who is ETERNAL; this “other self”; our Spiritual self cannot be killed and never dies. Its the part of us that WILL face Gods necessaryly Just and Fair Judgment; based on our lives decissions here on earth, while we still have our bodies; which, I remind you return to DUST when we die.

Genesis 3:19 “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.”

It is precisely the manner that humanity alone DOES emulate our God that REQUIRES God follow His owh physical laws of “Cause and effect” with actions DO cause consequences.

These Consequences MUST [fairness and Divine Justice] last for Eternity; and that is where Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are a critical part of God Plan for Creating man “in HIS Image.” Amen!

FROM the Catholic catechism:

375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”. This grace of original holiness was “to share in. . .divine life”.

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

While their NAMES may or may not have been “Adam and Eve”; their Creation directly by God, thier Grave Sin and its consequences is Catholic Doctrine.

God Bless you faith; your is a dnagerous position. Pray much.

Patrick

That didn’t take long.

 

[Aloysium]

This is not the position of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church allows for this option or other options and remains quite open to the possibility that man evolved. The one thing we must believe is that Adam and Eve were the first Human Beings made in the image of God. This could have happened any number of ways. We cannot believe in polygenesim but we can believe that there were human like people of which Adam and Eve were selected by God to receive their soul and become our first parents.

I suggest you read the entirety of this EWTN article and the sources it quotes

This has no support either in science or scripture, but I suppose if it keeps order in the way you conceptualize the world, it does have a purpose.

 

[Jon_S_1]

This has no support either in science or scripture, but I suppose if it keeps order in the way you conceptualize the world, it does have a purpose.

Why does it not have a place in science or scripture?

 

[Aloysium]

Why does it not have a place in science or scripture?

The world of the spirit lies outside any field in science.
It seems to me that even if religious or near-death-experiences and such were studied, they would be as psychological phenomena.
At any rate, science cannot offer an opinion as to when we would have been ensouled, or even if there is such a thing.

Now the Bible does not say how God molded the clay/slime/earth to form the physical form of Adam.
I take it that you would advocate that He did so through the ensoulment of two pre-existing human-appearing animals.

As an aside, at one point I voiced the possibility that Adam and Eve were in fact lemurs. Ed promptly shot that down as having already been discredited. It would have been brilliant, were it not for some pesky genes that didn’t belong.
While there may be something, far more complex, but along the lines of what you are proposing, I was responding to your wording which I interpret as not really being in keeping with what I see revealed in scripture.

Scripture states that Adam was formed from the earth of Eden and that God breathed His spirit into him.
From that unity came the first human pair, with the creation of Eve.
They are our original human parents with whom we share our fallen humanity.
They ontologically, as well as historically are key in defining who we are as human beings,
The picture is obviously complete with the death and resurrection of Christ.

The key point does not lie in the details of the physical manifestations of what occurred, or it would have been mentioned. The important details are in the verses, not in considerations about how we are related to simians.

Ultimately, it is the Word of God that creates reality.
Matter, its structure, laws, and processes are part of creation, but they do not define it or dictate what is real or true.
There are few scientists these days who believe in God. It took a priest to develop the theory regarding the creation of the universe. Even Einstein automatically discounted it as having no physical basis while acknowledging its mathematical correctness. I do not believe the current batch, with their biased models will ever be able to identify and put together the pieces of the puzzle that will demonstrate the reality of monogenism. They are not looking for, and are, quite the opposite, seeking ways to discredit it.
Also, given that we are rooted in what is supernatural, there may never be an answer in scientific terms.

 

[Faith1960]

No that is not correct in humans.

Once an xy or xx chromosome combo is formed at conception there is only one possible outcome.

everydayhealth.com/forum/pregnancy/do-all-foetuss-originate-as-female.html

 

[Faith1960]

everydayhealth.com/forum/pregnancy/do-all-foetuss-originate-as-female.html

Sorry, this link is liable to get us off topic…please stick to the original topic. I should’ve PM’d you that.