From an Eastern Catholic perspective, is hell empty until final judgment?

[ConstantineTG]

Title says it all. I was reading some Orthodox teachings on the matter and I wonder what the authentic teaching in the Eastern Catholic Church is? Because sometimes I feel Eastern Catholics adopt some Latin teachings because a) they are Latinized even in theology, or b) they want to emphasize they are not in complete disagreement with Latin theology so as not to shake the roots of the union. So I want to be clear, what is a genuine and authentic Eastern Catholic teaching on this matter? Do all those who are not deserving of paradise go into a “prison” where we pray for them until the end of times when God will judge if they are made worthy to enter heaven through our prayers, or condemned to hell?

 

[OscarsMama]

I am interested in this answer, too…

 

[Alexander_Roman]

There are two answers to this question which reflect the chasm/divide in Eastern Catholicism (of the Byzantine variety, in this case).

At the same time, I don’t think that we can further classify the two answers into “Latinized/non-Latinized.” In a real sense, that Eastern Catholics accept the papal dogmas would already be, to Eastern Orthodox, the highest form of Latinization - unadulterated Eastern vestments, incense and chanting notwithstanding.

The first answer is the one EC’s are used to, that is, that those destined for hell go there directly after the particular judgement after death.

The second one, reflecting the Eastern perspective, is that until the Second Coming of Christ, disembodied human spirits will only inhabit the “forecourts” of heaven and hell until the day of the Final Judgement when we will, once again, become the composite beings that we are, body and soul (with spirit being the highest part of the soul) and stand before the Awesome Judgement Seat of Christ.

So, according to this view, until Christ comes again, nothing is set in stone as far as eternal condemnation is concerned. It could be, but it doesn’t have to be. Prayer for the dead is therefore a tremendous priority of the Church, the offering of the Divine Liturgy and other Services for the Faithful Departed.

Let’s remember that when we say that we are justified by faith, the question is “by whose faith?” Is it “our faith” or “my faith” by which I am justified etc.?

Eastern theology affirms that it is by the “faith of Jesus Christ” that we are justified and saved, by His trust and obedience, by His charity etc.

We are justified not “by Christ” but “in Christ” therefore. Protestantism’s “by Christ” would make of Soteriology a legal affirmation that we are made right before God. In fact, our righteousness is that of Christ Who is the only Righteous One. When we live IN Him, we partake of Him and become a new creation. When God the Father sees us then, He sees Christ in us and so we become the Father’s children.

Sin is when we refuse to live fully in Christ. Any lessening of intensity in this respect is wrong, sinful. There is sin that leads to eternal death, to be sure. But rather than focus on personal faults in terms of acts of sin, the greatest sin is to not be totally open to the life in Christ in the Church.

Prayer really is the highest and ONLY good work. All good comes from prayer because it is what places us and keeps us strong in the life in Christ. Everything else derives from that great good.

This is why prayer for the dead is so critically important. From the Eastern POV, we pray also FOR the Saints (see the priest’s prayers in the DL of St John Chrysostom) because the Saints live in Christ in dynamic fashion. Our prayer in their honour and for them brings them into even more intimate communion with Christ and the Holy Trinity, thereby increasing their eternal, heavenly joy.

People sin in this life usually because of a weak faith and therefore a poor use of the means of salvation, namely prayer and the sacraments.

In the next life, their weak faith is transformed into a trembling realization that they were not open to the one thing needful - life in Christ.

In ways known only to God, they have the opportunity, through their own pain in the next life, and through the prayer of the Church, to be brought to that communion with Him that is truly “heavenly.”

Alex

 

[daniel32708]

We also must take into account that when we pray, we do it because it will help souls if they are in Purgatory (a type of indulgence). By the way, as far as I know, Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory… what is the stance of Eastern Catholics?

 

[ConstantineTG]

We also must take into account that when we pray, we do it because it will help souls if they are in Purgatory (a type of indulgence). By the way, as far as I know, Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory… what is the stance of Eastern Catholics?

Same as the Orthodox. Union of Brest states that we shall not debate about Purgatory.

 

[daniel32708]

Same as the Orthodox. Union of Brest states that we shall not debate about Purgatory.

I am doing some research about this topic. Apparently, what the Union of Brest actually said in Art. 5 is: “We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.”

By stating: “we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.” wouldn’t they be (in a subtle way) accepting the existence of Purgatory?

Source: fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1595brest.asp

 

[ConstantineTG]

I am doing some research about this topic. Apparently, what the Union of Brest actually said in Art. 5 is: “We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.”

By stating: “we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.” wouldn’t they be (in a subtle way) accepting the existence of Purgatory?

Source: fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1595brest.asp

But the Eastern tradition is a teaching of the Eastern Churches.

 

[Vico]

Title says it all. I was reading some Orthodox teachings on the matter and I wonder what the authentic teaching in the Eastern Catholic Church is? Because sometimes I feel Eastern Catholics adopt some Latin teachings because a) they are Latinized even in theology, or b) they want to emphasize they are not in complete disagreement with Latin theology so as not to shake the roots of the union. So I want to be clear, what is a genuine and authentic Eastern Catholic teaching on this matter? Do all those who are not deserving of paradise go into a “prison” where we pray for them until the end of times when God will judge if they are made worthy to enter heaven through our prayers, or condemned to hell?

“This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43)

Eastern Catholics how the same faith (which is dogma):

Pope Benedict XII (1336) On the Beatific Vision of God:

“Moreover we define that according to the general disposition of God, the souls of those who die in actual mortal sin go down into hell immediately (mox) after death and there suffer the pain of hell. Nevertheless, on the day of judgment all men will appear with their bodies “before the judgment seat of Christ” to give an account of their personal deeds, “so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body”” (2 Cor. 5.10).

Baltimore Catechism 3:
181. What is the judgment called which will be passed on each one of us immediately after death?
The judgment which will be passed on each one of us immediately after death is called the particular judgment.
(a) The existence of the particular judgment is apparent from the parable of Lazarus and Dives, which shows that one soul was rewarded and another punished immediately after death. Reward or punishment follows the sentence of judgment.
(b) The sentence of this judgment is final and will not be reversed.
(c) The particular judgment will be given immediately after the soul leaves the body. The soul will go at once either to its reward in heaven or to its punishment in purgatory or hell.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Baltimore Catechism 3:
181. What is the judgment called which will be passed on each one of us immediately after death?
The judgment which will be passed on each one of us immediately after death is called the particular judgment.
(a) The existence of the particular judgment is apparent from the parable of Lazarus and Dives, which shows that one soul was rewarded and another punished immediately after death. Reward or punishment follows the sentence of judgment.
(b) The sentence of this judgment is final and will not be reversed.
(c) The particular judgment will be given immediately after the soul leaves the body. The soul will go at once either to its reward in heaven or to its punishment in purgatory or hell.

The Baltimore catechism isn’t exactly the official Catechism of the Church. I think the CCC would be more appropriate here. Though, I don’t know why anyone is posting anything from the Latin Rite as we are very interested ITT in the Eastern/Orthodox view. We already know our view.

 

[Julia_Mae]

But the Eastern tradition is a teaching of the Eastern Churches.

I would very much appreciate any links or references to any writings of your church about what happens after we pass. I think there’s a word for that and I don’t know what it is.

jm

 

[CEM5]

Title says it all. I was reading some Orthodox teachings on the matter and I wonder what the authentic teaching in the Eastern Catholic Church is? Because sometimes I feel Eastern Catholics adopt some Latin teachings because a) they are Latinized even in theology, or b) they want to emphasize they are not in complete disagreement with Latin theology so as not to shake the roots of the union. So I want to be clear, what is a genuine and authentic Eastern Catholic teaching on this matter? Do all those who are not deserving of paradise go into a “prison” where we pray for them until the end of times when God will judge if they are made worthy to enter heaven through our prayers, or condemned to hell?

Hi ConstantineTG,

There are numerous different Eastern/Byzantine Catholic Churches, and the Ukranian Byzantine Catholic Church is in union with the Pope. I would purport that this means the Doctrines and teachings are the same, now for those Churches in union with Rome, under the Pope.

The Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic Church

Ukraine received their Christian heritage from the Byzantine Church. Following the Great Schism,** the Ukraine (with the Belarusans) rejoined Rome in the Union of Brest in 1595**. In spite of overwhelming persecution by Russian Orthodox and Communist rule, the Ukrainian Catholic Church recovered, and is now the largest Eastern Catholic Church with about 4.2 million faithful! The Ukrainian people have a special devotion to the Blessed Mother, and her reported appearances at Hrushiv and Seredne encouraged the faith of these devout people.

maryourmother.net/Eastern.html

The Church teaches that upon death, we immediately are judged and either go to hell, or heaven, and those in a state of venial sin, not yet pure enough for heaven, but not in grave sin, go to purgatory first to be purged of imperfections. 1 Cor 3 teaches this:
12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

blessings,
CEM

Now, those Eastern Orthodox churches still separated from Rome do not believe in purgatory or the teachings of hell as Christ and the Apostles taught.

Basic Orthodox teachings on hell

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_Hell#Basic_Orthodox_teachings_on_hell

See also: Bosom of Abraham.
Eastern Orthodox views
See also: Apocatastasis.

[23]

The theological concept of hell, or eternal damnation, is expressed differently in Eastern and Western Christianity.[24]

The Eastern Orthodox church teaches that Heaven and Hell are being in God’s presence[25][26] which is being with God and seeing God, and that there no such place as where God is not, nor is Hell taught in the East as separation from God.[27] One expression of the Eastern teaching is that hell and heaven are being in God’s presence, as this presence is punishment and paradise depending on the person’s spiritual state in that presence.[25][28] For one who hates God, to be in the presence of God eternally would be the gravest suffering.[29][30][31] Aristotle Papanikolaou [12] and Elizabeth H. Prodromou [13] wrote in their book Thinking Through Faith: New Perspectives from Orthodox Christian Scholars that for the Orthodox: Those theological symbols, heaven and hell, are not crudely understood as spatial destinations but rather refer to the experience of God’s presence according to two different modes.[32] Some Eastern Orthodox express personal opinions that appear to run counter to official church statements, in teaching hell is separation from God.[33][34][35][36][37]

The Eastern Orthodox church rejects the teaching of purgatory.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Its universal belief in all Catholic Rites and the Orthodox that prayers for the dead is part of the faith that the Apostles handed down to us. We pray for the dead and our prayers do help the souls of the departed. That is the basic concept of Purgatory and the faith of the East. What the East rejects about Purgatory is the concept of a Purgatorial Fire that purifies the souls. The East approaches it this way, maybe there is fire, maybe there isn’t. That isn’t important, whats important is that we pray for the dead here on earth so that our prayers may help lift up their souls into heaven. And that pretty much is the same as what the doctrine on Purgatory is. Of course with the addition of the purgatorial fire.

 

[Vico]

The Baltimore catechism isn’t exactly the official Catechism of the Church. I think the CCC would be more appropriate here. Though, I don’t know why anyone is posting anything from the Latin Rite as we are very interested ITT in the Eastern/Orthodox view. We already know our view.

The Baltimore is valid, the CCC also states the same.

Orthodoxy has not dogmatically defined particular judgment. Purgatory was a matter at the council of Florence which pertains to immediate after death state, in addition Luke 23:43 on the immediacy of heaven.

“If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory; also . . . the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other.” Council of Florence (1438-1443)

Orthodoxy does accept the scripture I gave on heaven: “This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43)

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I am doing some research about this topic. Apparently, what the Union of Brest actually said in Art. 5 is: “We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.”

By stating: “we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.” wouldn’t they be (in a subtle way) accepting the existence of Purgatory?

Source: fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1595brest.asp

It would depend which “Holy Church” the reference was about! There is every indication that the Orthodox bishops who signed the Union of Brest were referring to the Eastern Church’s traditions on prayer for the dead and the afterlife and not that of the Roman Church.

There can be different views on this, but it all comes down to the fact that both Churches believe that those who do not die in a state of mortal sin or “sin leading to eternal death” can be helped by the Divine Liturgy and the prayers of the Church to get closer to God.

One Eastern view is that the human soul, upon death, is surrounded by Fire which is the Love of God. Those in the state of Grace find the Fire a blessed experience while those who are not find it a painful experience.

And I would like to know what the Roman Catholic Church today believes about purgatory. The Eastern Churches do not accept the term “purgatory” nor that it is a “place.”

I get so many different responses that I really don’t know and when EC’s get asked about this our response is invariably, “Well, what do you believe about purgatory?”

Alex

 

[hazcompat]

It has never been “a place”. Saint Therese of Lesieux said (paraphrasing) to God…’ You can make me worthy of heaven in an instant’. It is not the instant…it is the making which is purgation (perfection), and is part of our existential experience. it is part of life, not a place. call it what you wish. I grew up with the word purgatory conceptualizing this condition of existence.

peace

 

[Julia_Mae]

One Eastern view is that the human soul, upon death, is surrounded by Fire which is the Love of God. Those in the state of Grace find the Fire a blessed experience while those who are not find it a painful experience.

If there is a continuum of experience, and with the ability prayer to move the souls closer to God I assume there must be, then that is congruent with Purgatory.

And I would like to know what the Roman Catholic Church today believes about purgatory. The Eastern Churches do not accept the term “purgatory” nor that it is a “place.”

From the CCC:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

If you want to know what the RCC teaches, you might just bookmark this: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm and do a search, rather than depend on individual interpretations. It’s why I keep asking for links to whatever is the source for the answers here.

The afterlife comprises states of being, BTW, not “locations” or “places.” Though, it wouldn’t surprise me if they are experienced by the individuals as places when they are there.

Looking at the answers here, I don’t think we differ much, except for when final judgement takes place.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If there is a continuum of experience, and with the ability prayer to move the souls closer to God I assume there must be, then that is congruent with Purgatory.

Of course. Eastern Catholics will use the term Purgatory that way. But we do not want to say Purgatory is a fiery process of purification. Since there is no clear evidence in scripture or tradition that there is indeed fire there its something Eastern Christians do not want to tack on our beliefs. But if we just want to say that we pray for the dead because it will help them get closer to God, the East and West agrees.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Of course. Eastern Catholics will use the term Purgatory that way. But we do not want to say Purgatory is a fiery process of purification. Since there is no clear evidence in scripture or tradition that there is indeed fire there its something Eastern Christians do not want to tack on our beliefs. But if we just want to say that we pray for the dead because it will help them get closer to God, the East and West agrees.

Good. So, here’s why I am so interested. I’m a “hell heretic.” I have no way to make myself accept that people can die and be subject to torment forever with no escape. I have read a semi-private revelation that says men put themselves there and don’t want to leave and don’t pray or ask for help.

I don’t want them there. IF it’s true that the state of being of everyone is not finalized until the 2nd coming or whatever we want to call it, then maybe that’s not happening until we get all those people out of there. Because God wants everyone to be saved and I figure he gets to have His way.

So, what’s your view on the efficacy of prayer for souls who are at the non-heaven end of the spectrum? Can we get 'em out of there?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Good. So, here’s why I am so interested. I’m a “hell heretic.” I have no way to make myself accept that people can die and be subject to torment forever with no escape. I have read a semi-private revelation that says men put themselves there and don’t want to leave and don’t pray or ask for help.

I don’t want them there. IF it’s true that the state of being of everyone is not finalized until the 2nd coming or whatever we want to call it, then maybe that’s not happening until we get all those people out of there. Because God wants everyone to be saved and I figure he gets to have His way.

So, what’s your view on the efficacy of prayer for souls who are at the non-heaven end of the spectrum? Can we get 'em out of there?

Thats why I ask this question. Basically I want to understand what East and West believes and how is this resolved between the two. I’ve read Orthodox writings on the subject that say that no one enters hell until the last judgment. Roman Catholic teaching is that if you die with mortal sin unrepentant, you go to hell today.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Thats why I ask this question. Basically I want to understand what East and West believes and how is this resolved between the two. I’ve read Orthodox writings on the subject that say that no one enters hell until the last judgment. Roman Catholic teaching is that if you die with mortal sin unrepentant, you go to hell today.

Yeah, but it’s also RCC teaching that we put ourselves there. It’s the “no escape clause” I can’t buy. I’m prayin’ for them. If it’s useless, God can use them for someone else.