From an Eastern Catholic perspective, is hell empty until final judgment?

[kitkatty]

Good. So, here’s why I am so interested. I’m a “hell heretic.” I have no way to make myself accept that people can die and be subject to torment forever with no escape. I have read a semi-private revelation that says men put themselves there and don’t want to leave and don’t pray or ask for help.

I don’t want them there. IF it’s true that the state of being of everyone is not finalized until the 2nd coming or whatever we want to call it, then maybe that’s not happening until we get all those people out of there. Because God wants everyone to be saved and I figure he gets to have His way.

So, what’s your view on the efficacy of prayer for souls who are at the non-heaven end of the spectrum? Can we get 'em out of there?

**Can we get them out of there? I surely dont know :shrug:but any soul to me is worth a prayer. Remember, as far as I know, the Church never states who is definitly in Hell so I say pray for all of them. There is so much we dont know regarding details about the afterlife. I think Jesus let us know all He though we needed to know on this side.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Orthodox position I read is that no one is in hell yet, so anyone destined for hell can be helped by our prayers from now until the end of times. The Roman Catholic position is that you are destined at the time of your death for heaven or hell. Heaven may be a direct path, or a detour through purgatory. Although believing that we can save anyone and everyone is great, I want to make sure I am following the teaching of the Church and accept that one.

 

[kitkatty]

The Orthodox position I read is that no one is in hell yet, so anyone destined for hell can be helped by our prayers from now until the end of times. The Roman Catholic position is that you are destined at the time of your death for heaven or hell. Heaven may be a direct path, or a detour through purgatory. Although believing that we can save anyone and everyone is great, I want to make sure I am following the teaching of the Church and accept that one.

See it this way maybe, if someone is in Hell from the time of their death we can`t ever know that for sure, so how can praying for them be against Church teaching when we are unsure of their final fate? If we actually end up praying for someone in Hell, then we are doing it in ignorance. God will not let that prayer for the departed be wasted, even to use it for some other soul.Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Cecilianus]

We can’t know until the Final Judgment who is where. Until then, we pray for everyone. From the Roman Catholic perspective, if our prayers save someone who had been in this “prison”, then we would say that they had been in Purgatory all along; if they are not saved, then they had been in Hell. In any case, since one can only go to Hell by a free choice (nobody is “sent” to Hell against their will), the choice is made by the point of their death, which can certainly be causally be affected by our prayers after the death (since God is eternal).

The Eastern perspective never disagrees with the Roman Catholic perspective; otherwise we would have to admit that one or the other is fallible, and some criterion would need to be set up arbitrating between the two, and that would be the judgment of the Pope of Rome (i.e. the Latin perspective). As a Catholic I have to admit that both are Orthodox and therefore permitted, and if I am going to expect both rites to maintain their integrity without compromise, I have to admit both of them as true. In my opinion the Latin expression is clearer and better-defined regarding Purgatory and Hell, except for the fact that indulgences are really canonically defunct since penances of any substantial sort are no longer given. But both perspectives are true.

 

[Julia_Mae]

In my opinion the Latin expression is clearer and better-defined regarding Purgatory and Hell, except for the fact that indulgences are really canonically defunct since penances of any substantial sort are no longer given. But both perspectives are true.

I don’t know what “canonically dead” means. But have you read Indulgentarium Doctrina? It’s just one of the great spiritual documents of modern times, I think. I also think we are at a time in history, Temporal and Eternal, when practicing penances and self-sacrifice for the sake of the souls who have passed is exceptionally in important.

 

[ConstantineTG]

except for the fact that indulgences are really canonically defunct since penances of any substantial sort are no longer given

I cannot get my head wrapped around indulgences. How can the Church deliberately and conclusively say that one gets X amounts of days/months/years from purgatory? I get the binding and loosing part, but there is only one judge, Jesus Christ. I see the Apostles as DAs, they either bring the case to the judge or not (binding and loosing) but doesn’t tell the judge what the sentence would be. Even in the event of a plea bargain, the DA can’t really dictate how much of the sentence is remitted.

 

[daniel32708]

1- You can not escape hell.
2- You go straight to hell when you die. Then, at judgment day, you get to know the reasons, and then go back straight to hell.

We know this from the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man was already there, and he could not get out.

Luke 16:19-34

There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:

And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.

And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.

And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.

And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I cannot get my head wrapped around indulgences. How can the Church deliberately and conclusively say that one gets X amounts of days/months/years from purgatory? I get the binding and loosing part, but there is only one judge, Jesus Christ. I see the Apostles as DAs, they either bring the case to the judge or not (binding and loosing) but doesn’t tell the judge what the sentence would be. Even in the event of a plea bargain, the DA can’t really dictate how much of the sentence is remitted.

Perhaps read the encyclical in the post above yours and tell me what you think. I believe your ideas about indulgences are off by a couple hundred years.

 

[Julia_Mae]

1- You can not escape hell.
2- You go straight to hell when you die. Then, at judgment day, you get to know the reasons, and then go back straight to hell.

We know this from the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man was already there, and he could not get out.

Not right then.

 

[TEX]

I think the problem comes from language: in the Greek NT there are two terms “hades” (death) and “gehenna” (hell). These two concepts both get rendered in Latin as “inferno” --i.e., hell. Prior to the mid-twentieth century “hell” was used in English translations for both Greek terms. In eastern thought, after death we are in hades–the place of death before final judgment. In western thought, (since hades has been eliminated) the choices are between heaven and hell, by the middle ages, western theologians realized that prayers for the dead would not make sense, so the concept of purgatory developed as a place where people who were not in hell could be prayed for.

So for eastern Christians, “hell” (gehenna) is empty, but “hades” (death) is not: a shade of nuance not available to western Christians who believe in an immediate judgment by Christ after death…and a final judgment at the end of time as Christ taught.

 

[Vico]

1- You can not escape hell.
2- You go straight to hell when you die. Then, at judgment day, you get to know the reasons, and then go back straight to hell.

We know this from the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man was already there, and he could not get out.

Luke 16:19-34

There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:

And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.

And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.

And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.

And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

According to the Greek there is torment in hades (SBL Greek New Testament) Luke 16:
23 καὶ ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ, ὑπάρχων ἐν βασάνοις, ὁρᾷ Ἀβραὰμ ἀπὸ μακρόθεν καὶ Λάζαρον ἐν τοῖς κόλποις αὐτοῦ.
23 And in to Hades having lifted up the eyes of him being in torment, he sees Abraham away far and Lazarus in the bosom of him.
Gehenna (Greek γέεννα, “the valley of Hinnom”), not Hades (Greek ᾅδῃ, the unseen place) appears here, in the New Testament:

• Matt.5:22 whoever calls someone “you fool” will be liable to Gehenna.
• Matt.5:29 better to lose one of your members than that your whole body go into Gehenna.
• Matt.5:30 better to lose one of your members than that your whole body go into Gehenna.
• Matt.10:28 rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
• Matt.18:9 better to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna.
• Matt.23:15 Pharisees make a convert twice as much a child of Gehenna as themselves.
• Matt.23:33 to Pharisees: you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to Gehenna?
• Mark 9:43 better to enter life with one hand than with two hands to go to Gehenna.
• Mark 9:45 better to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into Gehenna.
• Mark 9:47 better to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna
• Luke 12:5 Fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into Gehenna
• James 3:6 the tongue is set on fire by Gehenna.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Perhaps read the encyclical in the post above yours and tell me what you think. I believe your ideas about indulgences are off by a couple hundred years.

Really, because I’ve been seeing a lot of people talking about indulgences that way in the past few weeks, as recently as yesterday.

Any cliff notes on the encyclical?

 

[Vico]

Partial indulgences are simple, from Chapter 5 of the Apostolic Constitution Indulgentarium Doctrina (Pope Paul VI, 1977):
In drawing up the new norms these three considerations have been particularly observed: to establish a new measurement for partial indulgences; to reduce considerably the number of plenary indulgences; and, as for the so-called “real” and “local” indulgences, to reduce them and give them a simpler and more dignified formulation.

Regarding partial indulgences, with the abolishment of the former determination of days and years, a new norm or measurement has been established which takes into consideration the action itself of the faithful Christian who performs a work to which an indulgence is attached.

Since by their acts the faithful can obtain, in addition to the merit which is the principal fruit of the act, a further remission of temporal punishment in proportion to the degree to which the charity of the one performing the act is greater, and in proportion to the degree to which the act itself is performed in a more perfect way, it has been considered fitting that this remission of temporal punishment which the Christian faithful acquire through an action should serve as the measurement for the remission of punishment which the ecclesiastical authority bountifully adds by way of partial indulgence.

Norms

n. 4—A partial indulgence will henceforth be designated only with the words “partial indulgence” without any determination of days or years.

n. 5—The faithful who at least with a contrite heart perform an action to which a partial indulgence is attached obtain, in addition to the remission of temporal punishment acquired by the action itself, an equal remission of punishment through the intervention of the Church.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thats more like it

So why are indulgences today still being equated with specific amounts of time?

 

[Aramis]

I cannot get my head wrapped around indulgences. How can the Church deliberately and conclusively say that one gets X amounts of days/months/years from purgatory? I get the binding and loosing part, but there is only one judge, Jesus Christ. I see the Apostles as DAs, they either bring the case to the judge or not (binding and loosing) but doesn’t tell the judge what the sentence would be. Even in the event of a plea bargain, the DA can’t really dictate how much of the sentence is remitted.

Those are not days off from Purgatory. The indulgence is measured in equivalents of days of black fast.

 

[Cecilianus]

Those are not days off from Purgatory. The indulgence is measured in equivalents of days of black fast.

Hence my statement that they are “canonically defunct” - black fasts are never imposed for penances any more, though I wouldn’t object to their return.

 

[Julia_Mae]

SHEESH!! You missed the best part:

]There reigns among men, by the hidden and benign mystery of the divine will, a supernatural solidarity whereby the sin of one harms the others just as the holiness of one also benefits the others. Thus the Christian faithful give each other mutual aid to attain their supernatural aim. A testimony of this solidarity is manifested in Adam himself, whose sin is passed on through propagation to all men. But of this supernatural solidarity the greatest and most perfect principle, foundation and example is Christ himself to communion with Whom God has called us.

Following in the footsteps of Christ, the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in his sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies. This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints, whereby the life of each individual son of God in Christ and through Christ is joined by a wonderful link to the life of all his other Christian brothers in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ till, as it were, a single mystical person is formed.

Thus is explained the “treasury of the Church” which should certainly not be imagined as the sum total of material goods accumulated in the course of the centuries, but the infinite and inexhaustible value the expiation and the merits of Christ Our Lord have before God, offered as they were so that all of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. It is Christ the Redeemer himself in whom the satisfactions and merits of his redemption exist and find their force. This treasury also includes the truly immense, unfathomable and ever pristine value before God of the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, who following in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have sanctified their lives and fulfilled the mission entrusted to them by the Father. Thus while attaining their own salvation, they have also cooperated in the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.

“For all who are in Christ, having his spirit, form one Church and cleave together in him” (Eph. 4:16). Therefore the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who have gone to sleep in the peace of Christ is not in the least weakened or interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the perpetual faith of the Church, is strengthened by a communication of spiritual goods. For by reason of the fact that those in heaven are more closely united with Christ, they establish the whole Church more firmly in holiness, lend nobility to the worship which the Church offers to God here on earth and in many ways contribute to building it up evermore (1 Cor. 12: 12-27). For after they have been received into their heavenly home and are present to the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8), through him and with him and in him they do not cease to intervene with the Father for us, showing forth the merits which they have won on earth through the one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 2:5), by serving God in all things and filling up in their flesh those things which are lacking of the sufferings of Christ for his Body which is the Church (Col. 1:24). Thus by their brotherly interest our weakness is greatly strengthened.(22)

For this reason there certainly exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth a perennial link of charity and an abundant exchange of all the goods by which, with the expiation of all the sins of the entire Mystical Body, divine justice is placated. God’s mercy is thus led to forgiveness, so that sincerely repentant sinners may participate as soon as possible in the full enjoyment of the benefits of the family of God.

This is what indulgences are really about.

Thats more like it

So why are indulgences today still being equated with specific amounts of time?

The only way that I know they are, is that for your action to have the actual substance of a sacrifice or penance, it sometimes has an amount of time attached to it. For instance, this is in the front of my Bible:

“A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful who use Sacred Scripture for spiritual reading with the veneration due to the word of God. A plenary indulgence is granted if the reading continues for at least one half hour.”

IOW, a fast verse or two over a morning cuppa isn’t going to cut it. Also, it seems like in something like contemplation, they always recommend a half hour set aside. I wonder if there’s something more to it, like some amount of time it takes for your brain to settle down and the Spirit to get a Word in edgewise.

That part I quoted is some of my favorite reading.

 

[Aramis]

Hence my statement that they are “canonically defunct” - black fasts are never imposed for penances any more, though I wouldn’t object to their return.

Some confessors do still assign them, albeit sparingly, as penances. Personal experience.

 

[Vico]

Thats more like it

So why are indulgences today still being equated with specific amounts of time?

The publishers have not updated their information with the changes made by the Church in 1977 (and the current norms of 1999) all the indulgeces prior to 1977 were abrogated. The same is seen with scapulars, where the notes that ship with them are simply historical notes today, because any plenary associated with them is only when joining the confraternity, the wearing (a sign) carries a partial indulgence just as does using a cross, crucifix, medal.

 

[Cecilianus]

Some confessors do still assign them, albeit sparingly, as penances. Personal experience.

Can I move to Alaska so I can have your confessor? Mine are always wimpy.