From an outside perspective, is the Latin Rite OF closer to the earliest liturgies than the EF?

  • Thread starter Thread starter snarflemike
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
First, on pews:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/pews.aspx

And then there’s this. Note that the praying aloud of the Eucharistic prayer is not and entirely newfangled idea. There is strong historical argument from a variety of well-respected sources that it is actually the more traditional way of doing things. While the anaphora is never silent in The Divine Liturgy, it is often covered by the chanting of the people so that it cannot be heard.

 
Last edited:
If we shouldn’t have liturgy like in Apostolic times because of “Development”, then we can apply that to contemporary forms of worhip as well. Why can’t we have folk music? Because "it’s ugly? But isn’t non-Divine beauty subjective? Why the priest can’t wear contemporary nice clothes like a suit as well? Isn’t this “development” as well?

I am surprised to see people defending the EF through arguments of development.
 
Last edited:
I just want to state this really quick. I went to a Ruthenian Byzantine church, and I was the only one making the sign of the cross when the Holy Trinity was invoked, but no one else seemed to be. At the Melkite church that I often go to, that’s like a given. So I am curious what is meant by this. Perhaps you could make another thread, God bless!
 
My own opinion is this: If there is a valid Eucharist, there is a valid Mass, and I am not smart enough to know the background of the argument.
 
I just want to state this really quick. I went to a Ruthenian Byzantine church, and I was the only one making the sign of the cross when the Holy Trinity was invoked, but no one else seemed to be. At the Melkite church that I often go to, that’s like a given. So I am curious what is meant by this. Perhaps you could make another thread, God bless!
I would say that you came across a group of particularly disengaged Ruthenians. I have been to maybe 15 Ruthenian churches in the United States and Europe and have never known the people to not make the sign of the cross at the barest mention of the Holy Trinity.
 
Oh this comes up all the time in a couple of Byzantine groups I’m in on FB.
 
That’s odd. I’m Ruthenian and we always make the sign of the cross. I’m really surprised
 
Pews, no pews, Anaphora aloud or prayed during the Holy, Holy, Holy, doors open or closed. I have my preferences, but I love the fact that the Byzantine Rite does not require absolute uniformity across the board.
 
Which one holds more Ad Orientem? That is the one closer. In the East it is unheard of the priest praying to God in any other position than facing the altar even if the church as architecture has the altar misplaced and faces other cardinal points than the East. The Orient is also a metaphor for where the sun rises not just geography (sun - light of God, place -altar).
 
but I love the fact that the Byzantine Rite does not require absolute uniformity across the board.
I agree, but at the same time I think this is what causes a lot of arguments. People have a very rigid view and anything that is outside of what is done at their parish must somehow be wrong or "not Byzantine’
 
But as @twf rightly points out, Low Mass was not meant as the ideal,
More than that, it originated as an outright abuse . . . what became known as the “High Mass” was the Mass before the abuses which eventually became normative, and were codified at Trent.

I’m not a liturgist, or even close, but I do understand that some “lost” practices were restored in the OF. And also that, along the way (I think with the rise of the Low Mass, but again, I’m not the one to ask) the distinction between the priest’s and congregations’s parts got lost, and some were assigned to the priest essentially “for good measure.”).

Given that the records were insufficient at the time to tell, I’m skeptical that we can know much more today, save perhaps from other rites.

I still recall my first Divine Liturgy (which was in English), and my awe at it as more a seamless whole than the OF, which seems to me to go from one part to another.

Tidbits:

–the first time my Byzantine priest served the liturgy with a deacon (at the other parish, not ours), he commented the “I was able to sit there like a potted plant” as the deacon did all the work 🤣😱🤣 . . . . and when we had a deacon for a while, I was intrigued by the difference (and it made more work for us servers, as he keeps going in and out of the Holy Place :crazy_face:)

– Fr. Serge Kehler of blessed memory, a Ukrainian Catholic liturgist (who translated the Divine Liturgy into Irish and served it in Dublin!) commented that the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist is that sometimes, you can negotiate with a terrorist 😱:roll_eyes::crazy_face:). (he was active on the byzcath.org forums until a couple of years ago.)
You are assuming that the eastern liturgy is close to the liturgy in apostolic times, which isn’t necessarily true and needs an argument on its own.
A good point in its own right–and it is worth noting that part of Rome’s position in the early centuries was due to Rome being the conservative church that was suspicious of change.

That said, the Liturgy of Addai and Mari is a second century liturgy, the liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysotum were earlier and later fourth century, respectively, and the Liturgy of St. James is also fourth century, apparently a bit older than even Basil’s . . .

At that point, at least, the East changed slowly (St. Basil shortened the liturgy to about three and a half hours, and Chysotum by another hour, or some such). The west, or at least Rome, historically destroyed the old liturgical books when new ones were promulgated.

Keep in mind, also, that before Trent, the liturgy of the Diocese of Rome was far from universal in the west, although quite common, and that Latin was not universal, either . . .
 
Last edited:
. I went to a Ruthenian Byzantine church, and I was the only one making the sign of the cross when the Holy Trinity was invoked, but no one else seemed to be.
That’ s downright abnormal for Ruthenian use . . . we cross ourselves constantly (and kiss everything in sight, too! :crazy_face:_
position than facing the altar
The Holy Table.
even if the church as architecture has the altar misplaced and faces other cardinal points than the East.
“Liturgical East” . . . and, like the Latins, we’re getting better at actually putting that in the geographic east (my casual and non-scientific nor statistically valid observation is that the “interesting” orientations of RC churches seems to stem from a period when newer, larger churches were built one the same property, and the issue was making it fit … . .)
People have a very rigid view and anything that is outside of what is done at their parish must somehow be wrong or "not Byzantine’
“traditional” in byzantine-speak means “how it was done at the time of my grandfather’s Chrysmation” 😱😲:roll_eyes:

hawk
 
Last edited:
LOL! Tell me about it! 🤣 I try not to get too involved in our Maronite liturgical wars as it often robs me of any spiritual peace whatsoever, especially at the Qurbono. But I like to ask questions of those more knowledgeable than I because the history is fascinating at least.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top