From Kingdom of Evil to Kingdom of God.

[inJESUS]

Sam,

From Issa to Jesus, welcome back we hear of many in SA turning to Christ…i’m glad we have one on our forum…

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sam, what is your conclusion after posting this for all to figure out that the Quran is wrong? What is your point with this thread? Which book do you want to follow? You cannot follow both books.

I agree with this post.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hi “Sam”

Let me take your story at face value for now, for the benefit of the readers. The Catholics here should not be surprised by my response–and I don’t mean to offend anyone by it.

After that shocking discovery I decided to seriously find out, and I started comparing both the Bible and our Islamic book Quran, and I was seriously shocked to find out that our Islamic book Quran teaching is opposite to the Bible teaching, I thought to myself how is that possible since** both should have come from the same God**!!!.

Here are my findings, I hope we Muslims can come with reasonable answers for these major contradictions, considering that our religion came after Christianity, so we have to give the reasons not them:

I am a convert from Christianity to Islam, that is I decided to embrace Islam after living as a Christian. And not because the Qur’an agreed with Christianity–it doesn’t. That’s rather the point, actually.

So I am going to give you an example. Suppose your boss gives you a memo on Monday, telling you how to do a project, and then he sends you another memo on Tuesday. And then on Thursday he sends you another memo, each time he slightly changes the way he wants you to do it.

Which memo should you follow, the first one he sends you? The second one? Or the last one?

The answer, quite naturally, is the last one.

Now, holy scriptures are not “memos” directly from God, so I don’t mean to offend anyone with the analogy.

Also, you should be careful about what you consider to be “holy scripture” “from the same God.” Because in fact, the Qur’an (let’s consider for the moment that it is the “last memo” as per the Muslim position) does not actually agree with the Bible, but it doesn’t even say that the Bible is holy scripture. It doesn’t say that the Bible is from God. And an informed Muslim would not tell you that the Bible is from God either.

So that is a mistake in your analysis.

In summary, if you believe in multiple scriptures from the same God, then be aware that the last version is the most final and complete version, which would overrule or correct anything before it. And secondly, if you do believe the Qur’an is holy scripture, from God, then you should accept only what it calls holy scripture and what it claims to be from God, so you cannot claim that the Bible is holy scripture because the Qur’an does not call it so, but rather only 4 other specific texts, which are named… and none of which are the Bible.

 

[Muzhik]

Sister Amy, Shalom! Muslims believe the Q’uran was dictated word-for-word by Allah through an angel to the Prophet (pbuh). This makes the Q’uran the literal Word of G_D. Jews and Christians, on the other hand, consider the Bible to be the INSPIRED (not the literal) word of G_D – G_D did not dictate what should be written in the Psalms, or Numbers, or any other book of the Bible. He sent His Holy Spirit to inspire these authors on what to say. (In some cases, the Holy Spirit did tell the writers to declare that what was written was from G_D. Whenever you read “Thus saith the Lord”, you know that what is written is a prophecy that has come from G_D and will come true.)

Since G_D is inspiring the writers and not dictating, G_D allows for the vagaries of human language. In human languages, “a great nation” means a strong, rich, and powerful nation. This nation may be “great” without being close to G_D. Christians do not see a conflict between being great in the world and being great in G_D. It can be more difficult to balance material wealth with being close to G_D, but it all depends on the choices that the people of that nation make.

And therein is the big difference between the Islamic view and the Christian view: choice. G_D may shower us with material wealth and thereby make us “a great nation” based on His plans for us. He will send His Holy Spirit to call for us to return to Him. But unless and until we CHOOSE to return to Him, we cannot be great with G_D. In this view, G_D did make Ishmael a great nation, strong and wealthy. However, Ishmael and the children of Ishmael have not chosen to be close to G_D, choosing instead to be “every man against his brother.” Isaac, on the other hand, chose to follow G_D, which is why Isaac and his descendants are both great with G_D and great in the eyes of men.

<><

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy, Shalom! Muslims believe the Q’uran was dictated word-for-word by Allah through an angel to the Prophet (pbuh).

I know. Specifically, the angel Gabriel.

This makes the Q’uran the literal Word of G_D.

That’s right.

Jews and Christians, on the other hand, consider the Bible to be the INSPIRED (not the literal) word of G_D – G_D did not dictate what should be written in the Psalms, or Numbers, or any other book of the Bible. He sent His Holy Spirit to inspire these authors on what to say.

I know that’s what Christians believe. But did you know that according to Muslims, the angel Gabriel and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. Muslims believe Gabriel is God’s Messenger to His prophets and messengers among men, who delivers revelation to them.

(In some cases, the Holy Spirit did tell the writers to declare that what was written was from G_D. Whenever you read “Thus saith the Lord”, you know that what is written is a prophecy that has come from G_D and will come true.)

Well since Muslims believe that the Holy Spirit (aka Gabriel) dictated to Muhammad, is there really much difference?

Since G_D is inspiring the writers and not dictating, G_D allows for the vagaries of human language.

Perhaps in any other book except the Qur’an. But remember that Muslims believe that every people were sent a Prophet–someone from God, from their own people, so he is one of them as well, and knows their language. Yet the message was always the same.

In human languages, “a great nation” means a strong, rich, and powerful nation. This nation may be “great” without being close to G_D.

How can a nation be great, according to God, while being far away from God? If it is great in anything other than God, then it is great in sin. Would God say that something is great in sin just by calling it “great?”

Christians do not see a conflict between being great in the world and being great in G_D.

I referred specifically to a teaching of Jesus, that it is harder for a rich man (great in the world) to enter Heaven (great in God) than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. The two don’t mean the same thing.

It can be more difficult to balance material wealth with being close to G_D, but it all depends on the choices that the people of that nation make.

In reality, material wealth is irrelevant. Everything is a gift of God, including guidance.

And therein is the big difference between the Islamic view and the Christian view: choice. G_D may shower us with material wealth and thereby make us “a great nation” based on His plans for us.

A nation could also be great in sin and corruption, but only called great because of wealth and power. Many such a nation has fallen–destroyed by God. Wealth is a trust of God, which he bestows on his servants to test them.

He will send His Holy Spirit to call for us to return to Him. But unless and until we CHOOSE to return to Him, we cannot be great with G_D. In this view, G_D did make Ishmael a great nation, strong and wealthy. However, Ishmael and the children of Ishmael have not chosen to be close to G_D, choosing instead to be “every man against his brother.” Isaac, on the other hand, chose to follow G_D, which is why Isaac and his descendants are both great with G_D and great in the eyes of men.

I disagree–what evidence do you have that Ishmael chose to not be close to God? Not even the Bible says this about Ishmael, so I wonder what proof you have? According to the Bible wasn’t it Sarah who expelled him and his mother? Out of jealousy or whatever? Muslims actually believe that God told Abraham to take Ishmael and Hajar to Mecca (which was nothing but desert) and left them there, and God took care of them. Muslims believe that there Abraham and Ishmael constructed a house of worship, and that Abraham called people to make a pilgrimage there (this is the Ka’ba to which I refer). Muslims also believe that Abraham returned to Ishmael during his life, telling him at one point to divorce his wife, and later approving of his choice in a wife (after he divorced the other one.) And of course Muslims believe that among the descendents of Ishmael God chose a Messenger who He sent to all of mankind, witih one final revelation, the Qur’an. And from that group, the people who follow that revelation, the people who pray to God five times a day, who make that pilgrimage which Abraham initiated–those people who worship God with no partners, those people are the Muslims. A great nation.

 

[GemmaRose]

So I am going to give you an example. Suppose your boss gives you a memo on Monday, telling you how to do a project, and then he sends you another memo on Tuesday. And then on Thursday he sends you another memo, each time he slightly changes the way he wants you to do it.

Which memo should you follow, the first one he sends you? The second one? Or the last one?

The answer, quite naturally, is the last one.

I, also, do not mean to offend anyone. I am just speaking what I think while also believing that everyone has the right to believe and worship as they see fit.

That being said, the argument quoted above is basically flawed.

First, the memo analogy isn’t bad, but one must be absolutely certain that the last memo came from the boss and not some underling who wants to sabotage either you or your project.

Here, Jesus came, clamed to be God, and I would say proved it by His numerous miracles, if not by His dying and rising from the dead. Since He came to fulfill the Law and all prophecy, there was no need for someone to come after Him, and indeed, no one with any divine authority did.

Also, you should be careful about what you consider to be “holy scripture” “from the same God.” Because in fact, the Qur’an (let’s consider for the moment that it is the “last memo” as per the Muslim position) does not actually agree with the Bible, but it doesn’t even say that the Bible is holy scripture. It doesn’t say that the Bible is from God. And an informed Muslim would not tell you that the Bible is from God either.

So that is a mistake in your analysis.

No, that’s a mistake in your analysis. Of course an “informed Muslim” would not say the Bible is from God because “informed Muslim” do not know or understand the Word of God, having been misled their whole lives by the Qur’an.

In summary, if you believe in multiple scriptures from the same God, then be aware that the last version is the most final and complete version, which would overrule or correct anything before it. And secondly, if you do believe the Qur’an is holy scripture, from God, then you should accept only what it calls holy scripture and what it claims to be from God, so you cannot claim that the Bible is holy scripture because the Qur’an does not call it so, but rather only 4 other specific texts, which are named… and none of which are the Bible.

First, there is no “last version.” Jesus is the Final Word, total and complete. Nothing need be added to His Words or to the Bible, written through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God.

Second, if someone with divine authority and who proved his divine authority came with a Playboy magazine and said that was a “last version” of scripture which we should call holy, then we should call it holy. But if someone with no authority whatsoever came with some book and said it was holy, only fools would believe him.

Well since Muslims believe that the Holy Spirit (aka Gabriel) dictated to Muhammad, is there really much difference?

*Is there really much difference?!? * That’s like comparing gold with clay! The Holy Spirit is God. Gabriel is an angel. God is not an angel. Gabriel is not God!!!

…the Muslims. A great nation.

Maybe I’m missing something, but from what I see in photographs and news reports, most Muslim nations appear backward with many people living in poverty and squalor and whose seeming only pasttime is killing people. I also find it ironic that every time there is a disaster in one of these countries, they reach out their hands for some of the American wealth they claim to despise ; and we who live in a country founded on Christian principals, in Christian charity send aid. Additionally, it’s kind of amazing that for so “great [a] nation” that so VERY many have chosen to leave that “great nation” and reside in the same country they hate and attack. (Oh, that’s right. I forgot. The Qur’an of the Islamic religion of “peace” advocates the killing of “infidels” while the Holy Bible of the “infidels” says we should pray for our enemies.)

Muslims believe the Q’uran was dictated word-for-word by Allah through an angel to the Prophet

It would do many people well to remember that the once-greatest of all angels, Lucifer, rebelled against God and was thrown into the eternal fires of hell. Lucifer, the devil, the prince of lies… it would be very easy for him to pass himself off as Gabriel, or any other angel. He is a master of lies and deception, and anything inspired by him would be filled with hatred, violence and lies. How happy this wicked fiend would be to mislead millions of people of good will who are sincerely seeking the truth! Contrast this to the peace, love and benevolence found in The HOLY Bible…

But, as I said above, everyone is free to believe in whatever they want to… after all, this is a free Country.
View attachment 2904

---

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani

 

[ronyodish]

those people are the Muslims. A great nation.

Sister Amy,

Insha’Allah, those Muslims of the great Arab nation will be converted to Christianity by God. Then, this great nation will be *fully *great in God!

Ya Rabb al Maseeh, Isma’na!

God bless,

Rony

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hi Gemma, thanks for your post. You made a few good points, confronting my analogy from the Christian perspective. Hats off to you.

I just wanted to clarify one thing in my original post. And that is, the reason I said that an informed Muslim wouldn’t say the BIble is from God, is a hairy issue actually. The Qur’an actually confirms some previous scripture. Now that only matters to someone who believes in the Qur’an in the first place (like myself). But for Muslims who do believe in the Qur’an to say that the Bible is holy scripture is an incorrect, unproven statement.

In fact, the Qur’an confirms four previous scriptures, the Torah, the Psalms, the Gospel of Jesus, and the Scrolls of Abraham. Now, while some parts of these scriptures might be in the Bible, there is no statement in the Qur’an regarding the rest of the Bible, so to say “Bible” inclusively as holy scripture is incorrect, according to Islam. Naturally Christians approach the subject differently.

Now, in response to your most I wanted to say a few things–according to Islam, the devil is not, and never was an angel. Muslims believes that angels cannot and do not ever disobey God. So they believe that the devil (who you called Lucifer) was a character named “Iblees” who was a different kind of creature, neither human nor angel, called a jinn.

Another point I wanted to make was that you’re right to demand authority for any book coming later. For example, what authority did Moses have over the Jews? What authority did later Jewish prophets have? And what authority did Jesus have? The answer is that the authority only comes from God. Muslims believe that miracles are a proof that a person is sent from God–miracles like those of Moses (plagues, parting red sea, staff becoming snake), and like those of Jesus (healing the blind, raising the dead). So the only reason that Muslims believe that the Qur’an is actual revelation from God is its miraculous nature, and the only reason they accept Muhammad as a prophet is through that miracle of the Qur’an, because it was revealed to him.

Moreover, Muslims that live in America will not claim that they hate it. So saying that they choose to live here and they hate it–the groups of people here are mutually exclusive. People that hate America DON’T live here, precisely for that reason. People that move here, that immigrate here, often do so to obtain a better life than in their current oppressive third world country.

Take for example, my sheikh. He is Syrian, a real scholar of Islamic law, who had to come here because he was not allowed to preach Islam there in Syria, the religious people were being oppressed by the government. While here in the USA, religious freedom is allowed. Muslim Americans are Americans too. You might enjoy the video I have linked in my signature, which is sort of about American Muslims.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy,

Insha’Allah, those Muslims of the great Arab nation will be converted to Christianity by God. Then, this great nation will be *fully *great in God!

Ya Rabb al Maseeh, Isma’na!

God bless,

Rony

لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

My Lord is Ar-Rahman, the Most Merciful, and not his slave.

 

[ronyodish]

لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

My Lord is Ar-Rahman, the Most Merciful, and not his slave.

باسم الآب والابن والروح القدس
الإله الواحد آمين


I Confess that God is Love: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
And I Confess that Jesus Christ is the Son Incarnate, Lover of Mankind!

http://www.ruggedelegantliving.com/

Jesus loves you Sister Amy!

God bless

Rony

 

[Sam_777]

Part 4/7:

Moreover, I have found that Genesis 17:21 says it all, this part was from the first chapter, on the first book, from the Old Testament which prophet Moses received from the Most High God before Christianity & Islam in centuries:
“17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety? 18 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing! 19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year. 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.” (Genesis 17:17-22).

THE MOST HIGH GOD’S COVENANT IS WITH ISAAC NOT WITH ISHMAEL, this is very important because it saves us lots of time and arguments, if we Muslims believe in this statement, then there is no way that Muhammad is a prophet because he is from Ishmael’s descendants and there is no covenant with Ishmael as shown above.

Fellow Muslims, now let us know the true story about Satan and why he sinned (not as told in Quran):
“12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:” 'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.” (Ezekiel 28:12-19).

Now let us see what Satan wanted to do on earth after that:
“12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” (Isaiah 14:12-14).

From the above, it clearly shows that Satan wanted to be like God, and no doubt that Satan created the other pagan religions so people would worship him thinking that he is god instead of the Most High God.

 

[Sam_777]

Part 5/7:

My personal view about a possible scenario (I know my fellow Muslims will not like it at all, but please please please let us discus it together, I hope also our friends the Christians and Jewish give me their opinion here):

After linking and analyzing what is written in the Bible to the history of Arabian Peninsula mentioned in some historical Arabic books, that once the Most High God had thrown Satan out of paradise, Satan started creating all those pagan religions in earth, and one of those pagan religion targeted Mecca (the Muslims holy city in Saudi Arabia) where the 360 idols worshiping started prior to Islam, there was no better environment than to seduce Ishmael when Abraham sent him to the Arabian Peninsula, Satan tempted him on how God have abandoned him in the favor of Isaac, seducing Ishmael to worship him(Satan) by building the Kaaba (the black stone) in Mecca in exchange for the world’ treasures, and there where the 360 idols started their origin, I think Ishmael hated the Most High God because he favored Isaac over him, but Ishmael did not know that the Most High God had a plan to save this world, and simply Ishmael wasn’t part of that plan, in addition to that, Abraham have married Hagar (Ishmael’s mother) without God’s approval but by an earthy decision through his wife Sarah, actually the most high God did not abandon Ishmael but he promised that he would bless him and make him into a great nation (Genesis 17:17-22).

I think the real war started afterward when the Most High God sent his Son Jesus to save the human beings forever, Satan lost his mind completely and decided to fight Christianity in all his power, he couldn’t sustain to see the Most High God having a Son to rule over all other creations exactly like the Most High God, Satan was planning for that position himself (Isaiah 14:12-14), but Satan did not know that he cannot force his willing among the Most High God, so Satan decided to create a religion which has a violence within it, so he can enforce that religion by power, Satan knew that he cannot spread it just by words like his other pagan religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, etc) because it won’t stand a chance against the Bible words (that is why we prohibit the Bible in Saudi Arabia), and there where Satan decided to consolidate all those 360 idols worshiping into one god to make sense and logic for Islamic followers, and there was no better person than Muhammad to do the job, Satan pretended that he is angel Gabriel from heavens and taught Muhammad the Quran, of course Satan must put some good earthy stuff in his religion (like not to drink alcohol, not to gamble, etc), but on the expense of diverting people off their right path (by not believing in the Most High God, his son Jesus, and the true path of salvation).

 

[inJESUS]

All this thing about Abraham or Ishmael building anything in SA is neither found in Old Testament, nor New Testament, nor Jewish tradition, nor Christian tradition, nor any source i am aware of instead Islamic claims.

 

[Righteousone]

Sam, instead of dictating the bible here, or your Quran, why don’t you answer the questions being posted to you?

Which book do you want to follow? Simple question, perhaps not such a simple answer.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Jesus loves you Sister Amy!

I love him too.

Does he love you?

 

[Sister_Amy]

THE MOST HIGH GOD’S COVENANT IS WITH ISAAC NOT WITH ISHMAEL, this is very important because it saves us lots of time and arguments, if we Muslims believe in this statement, then there is no way that Muhammad is a prophet because he is from Ishmael’s descendants and there is no covenant with Ishmael as shown above.

This is a really silly claim, Sam, and I would expect more from you. It’s kind of like a strawman.

Nobody ever said that the covenant was with Ishmael. Even Muslims will tell you it was with Isaac, and that Isaac was a prophet, as was Isaac’s son Jacob, and so on. Muslims believe this. They also believe in prophets descendant from Abraham through that line, to the Jewish people. But Muslims also believe that God sent prophets to all of mankind–not just Jews.

The claim you’re making now is kind of like what the Jews claimed at the time of Muhammad–that they wouldn’t follow an Arab prophet even though they believed he was from God, just because he was Arab.

In fact, there is a story in the Qur’an to show the Jews their arrogance on that point, and it is the story about Iblees–which you have completely misunderstood. Christians think that the devil was actually an angel. The Qur’an corrects them by saying he was a jinn. Because angels do not disobey God. You will find this in Surat al-Kahf. But if you read the previous similar chapter, Surat al-Israa’, you read the same story about Iblees, only it says that he was arrogant, and would not bow before man because he said he was better–created from fire while man was created from clay.

About your post, your final conclusion or whatever, it smacks of historical inaccuracy–there’s no real need for me to reply.

 

[Sister_Amy]

All this thing about Abraham or Ishmael building anything in SA is neither found in Old Testament, nor New Testament, nor Jewish tradition, nor Christian tradition, nor any source i am aware of instead Islamic claims.

Well then Muhammad couldn’t have been just quoting other sources, could he?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sam, instead of dictating the bible here, or your Quran, why don’t you answer the questions being posted to you?

Which book do you want to follow? Simple question, perhaps not such a simple answer.

I agree with you. If he wants to follow the Bible then he should just accept the Bible and reject the Qur’an. Clearly he’s doing that, moving backwards, might as well just get it over with.

Rejecting the Qur’an because it disagrees with the Bible is a Christian direction anyway. No real surprise.

 

[Booklover]

Moreover, Muslims that live in America will not claim that they hate it. So saying that they choose to live here and they hate it–the groups of people here are mutually exclusive. People that hate America DON’T live here, precisely for that reason. People that move here, that immigrate here, often do so to obtain a better life than in their current oppressive third world country.

Take for example, my sheikh. He is Syrian, a real scholar of Islamic law, who had to come here because he was not allowed to preach Islam there in Syria, the religious people were being oppressed by the government. While here in the USA, religious freedom is allowed. Muslim Americans are Americans too. You might enjoy the video I have linked in my signature, which is sort of about American Muslims.

You never tire of deception, do you?? As I’ve pointed out before, you’ve called America a vulgar country!


Presently, America is faced with a formidable enemy in a Trojan horse called Islam. This imminent danger makes it imperative to revisit the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and make the necessary changes to legally defeat Islam’s subversion of the democratic system.

Muslims in Western democracies, most of them escapees of the misery of Islamic countries, exhibit such incredible gall and audacity as to shamelessly demand that their benevolent hosts surrender their liberty and legalize and adopt the Sharia in their societies.

The Muslims’ presence in countries such as Canada, Great Britain, the Netherlands and Sweden represents the tip of the sword of the Islamists protruding from the Trojan horse.

Bluntly speaking, no one can be a faithful Muslim and an American at the same time. As more and more Muslims arrive in non-Islamic lands, as they reproduce with great fecundity, as they convert the disenchanted and minorities, and as petrodollar-flush Muslims and Muslim treasuries supply generous funds, Muslims gather more power to undermine the democratic rule." Amil Imani

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

You never tire of deception, do you?? As I’ve pointed out before, you’ve called America a vulgar country!

I NEVER SAID SUCH A THING, EVER.

And you think I’m lying. Everyone should be able to see now who is the liar.