From Marian dogma to devotion

[mathematoons]

The intermediate steps seem to not be very logical. You have to see things in a poetic light rather than a logical light.

Then I’m afraid I will never understand it, not until it is revealed to me in Heaven. I can understand such a thing no better than I could before I was saved.

Consider the pierced heart of Mary. Jesus’ heart was pierced too at the cross. The fact that both their hearts are pierced at the cross singles out Mary to all the other saints in the Bible. She is intimately connected to the Trinity: The Holy Spirit shadowed over her and gave her a child. There are these and so many other things, like how honoring the Ark of the OT does not detract from God but insulting it does, that points to the high honor of Mary. While a purely logical case is hard to make, there is evidence for it.

Again, this makes no sense. Sorry.

I think my brain just will not work that way. I just hope the same God who made me this way will find a way to make me a saint without such things.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Ok, but does she ever talk back?.

On another message board a user once told me that Mary once lifted his spirit and talked to him in Church and told him to follow her Son. This personal testimony opened my heart to Mary and the Catholic Church.

 

[LilyM]

This is another problem for me. My mother is my one and only family member (father left when I was little, grandparents died long ago, aunts and uncles live too far). She is the only person on Earth I really love beyond the “love your neighbor” sense. For me, I have two Real loves. One is her, in the physical world. The other is God, in the spiritual world. One love per world. So when I tried to deepen Marian devotion, I couldn’t have two in the one slot that exists. I understand the sentences you’re writing, but the idea behind them simply doesn’t exist for me, if that makes any sense.

You’ve never in your life had a deep love for anyone other than your mother? No boyfriend or girlfriend for example?

For me - I have two parents and four older sisters. I have never doubted that they all love me and each other - all at the same time and all very deeply. Likewise me for them. There is no conflict between these loves, no ‘you love her/him with all your heart and soul, therefore you must love me less’. Even though my mother and father may have been constantly by their children’s bedsides during our various illnesses, they understood that this supreme devotion to their children was in no sense conflicting with their supreme devotion to each other. If anything, in a sense they each loved us all the more for being also the children of their spouse.

Love in a Godly sense is not - generally at least - like a pie where if one gets a bigger piece everyone else automatically gets a lesser piece. It is more comparable to a muscle, the more and more different ways you exercise it the bigger and stronger it gets. Those who have more than one love - be it for spouse as well as children, both parents, or multiple siblings, understand this. And I don’t know if it is something that can be understood without being experienced.

Ask God to give you the experience - it sounds like a very restricted life loving only one person. You think He can’t? I know I used to really dislike children, until my siblings had them. God can use the circumstances of our lives to soften and change us.

The Bible and Church teaching say the three are one and the same, so that’s no problem

And the Bible and Church teaching also tell us how God loves us - infinitely, as though each and every one of us were His only creation and child - and that we are to try to love (or at least treat) each other in the same way.

 

[mathematoons]

You’ve never in your life had a deep love for anyone other than your mother? No boyfriend or girlfriend for example?

No, God has called me to celibacy. I have had superficial short-term friendships. But nothing more. Nothing that can be called love, let alone deep love.

All I can do is hope God will give me the strength to go on after the unthinkable happens.

For me - I have two parents and four older sisters. I have never doubted that they all love me and each other - all at the same time and all very deeply. Likewise me for them. There is no conflict between these loves, no ‘you love her/him with all your heart and soul, therefore you must love me less’. Even though my mother and father may have been constantly by their children’s bedsides during our various illnesses, they understood that this supreme devotion to their children was in no sense conflicting with their supreme devotion to each other. If anything, in a sense they each loved us all the more for being also the children of their spouse.

I will have to take your word for it. Whatever it is, it’s probably too late for me now to change this. If conversion doesn’t change such a thing, nothing can.

Love in a Godly sense is not - generally at least - like a pie where if one gets a bigger piece everyone else automatically gets a lesser piece. It is more comparable to a muscle, the more and more different ways you exercise it the bigger and stronger it gets. Those who have more than one love - be it for spouse as well as children, both parents, or multiple siblings, understand this. And I don’t know if it is something that can be understood without being experienced.

You’re probably right. Have you ever tried to explain what it’s like to believe to an unbeliever?

Ask God to give you the experience - it sounds like a very restricted life loving only one person. You think He can’t? I know I used to really dislike children, until my siblings had them. God can use the circumstances of our lives to soften and change us.

God has made it clear that this is the life He wants for me. He and I have had many long discussions about this over the two years since I converted. I spent my whole life (I’m 29) trying to change it, and every single attempt failed fairly quickly. Prayer hasn’t helped. Such things are not God’s will for me; perhaps they would lead me to forget Him. I wasn’t much of a “people person” before, and I’m not much of one now. That’s another of those things I hoped conversion would change. So much has changed, it’s a little disappointing to see how much hasn’t.

And the Bible and Church teaching also tell us how God loves us - infinitely, as though each and every one of us were His only creation and child - and that we are to try to love (or at least treat) each other in the same way.

But where does the notion of a two-way personal relationship with Mary and the saints, like what we have with God, come in?

 

[LilyM]

No, God has called me to celibacy. I have had superficial short-term friendships. But nothing more. Nothing that can be called love, let alone deep love.

All I can do is hope God will give me the strength to go on after the unthinkable happens

That’s where developing other deep loving friendships and relationships comes in. Humans will always disappoint us - not least by leaving us physically alone when they die. Relationships with our heavenly family members are not subject to the same disappointments, as they do not depend in physical proximity.

I will have to take your word for it. Whatever it is, it’s probably too late for me now to change this. If conversion doesn’t change such a thing, nothing can.

I would say you’ve perhaps not been properly converted yet if you’ve not changed. For some conversion is a lengthy process - like St Augustine.

You’re probably right. Have you ever tried to explain what it’s like to believe to an unbeliever?

But lots of people DO come from belief to unbelief - not always an overnight or easy process mind you - and do come to understand it in His time.

God has made it clear that this is the life He wants for me. He and I have had many long discussions about this over the two years since I converted. I spent my whole life (I’m 29) trying to change it, and every single attempt failed fairly quickly. Prayer hasn’t helped. Such things are not God’s will for me; perhaps they would lead me to forget Him. I wasn’t much of a “people person” before, and I’m not much of one now. That’s another of those things I hoped conversion would change. So much has changed, it’s a little disappointing to see how much hasn’t.

Two years? The people of Israel had to wait patiently for hundreds of years before their prayers for a Messiah were answered, and Christians have been praying for 2,000 years for Him to come again. St Augustine’s mother St Monica prayed 20 years for his conversion before her prayers were answered more fully, I dare say, than she ever could have hoped.

Two years is nothing, a speck, the blink of an eye.

But where does the notion of a two-way personal relationship with Mary and the saints, like what we have with God, come in?

It comes in because Christ commands us to have, as far as possible given our human limitations, the same relationship with them as He has with us - which is certainly personal and two-way at the very least. What does ‘love one another as I have loved you’ mean if not ‘love one another in the same manner as I have loved you’? Think about how He loved Mary - to the fullness of His capacity, as He perfectly fulfills the commandment to honour His mother along with the other nine.

 

[Eman267]

Intermediate step 1 (to understand why Mary was created immaculate)
Mary was created immaculate without original sin so her heart could be in union with Christ’s heart. She was not distracted with sin, so what was she thinking about…

Step 2 (to understand Mary’s role as the co-redeemer)
Her immaculate heart was united with Jesus’ scared heart. As is the case in relationships of love, when He hurt, she hurt. So what was causing Jesus pain? When someone commits a sin against us it causes us pain and since Jesus loves us, when we are in pain He is in pain. That’s what love does it takes on the sorrows of another. As a parent is in pain when their child suffers, we are all Christ children and because He loves us He suffers our pain.

Mary is considered the co-redeemer because she played a part in helping Jesus take on all the pain throughout the centuries created by sin. This is why the Nicene Creed says Jesus “suffered death”. The more pain one takes on the less they want to live, when you no longer want to live that’s death – Jesus was not going to suffer this alone and need to see Mary’s love to keep going.

Step 3 (appreciate Mary as the mother of sorrows)
Adoration comes from appreciation. We should stand in awe of her life as the mother of sorrows. We are called into the relationship of the united hearts of Jesus and Mary. The adoration of one does not take away from the other when you see Mary as the co-redeemer. Do you have the same compassion for someone enslaved to sin as they did? No, we don’t, but we can appreciate and adore their compassion and try to imitate it in our lives.

I’m not looking for purely emotional responses. I want to know what the intermediate steps are.

 

[mathematoons]

That’s where developing other deep loving friendships and relationships comes in. Humans will always disappoint us - not least by leaving us physically alone when they die. Relationships with our heavenly family members are not subject to the same disappointments, as they do not depend in physical proximity.

The problem is, I get too obsessive around friends. I wasted a lot of years chasing after them. The fact that Mary and the other saints are our heavenly family members doesn’t seem to change that fact for me; I get too obsessive around them too. So I’m starting to wonder if pursuing such a thing would violate the first commandment for me. My relationship with God suffered when I deepened my Marian devotion.

I would say you’ve perhaps not been properly converted yet if you’ve not changed. For some conversion is a lengthy process - like St Augustine.

I have changed so much, people who knew me before can barely believe it. I’ve become much more loving (you should see what I used to be like!), much more at peace, much more willing to accept the way things are, and much more humble. I became a new person the day I converted. But some things never change. I was born with Asperger’s Syndrome, and I will have it until the day I die. Even if I live to be 120 like that Japanese guy.

It comes in because Christ commands us to have, as far as possible given our human limitations, the same relationship with them as He has with us - which is certainly personal and two-way at the very least. What does ‘love one another as I have loved you’ mean if not ‘love one another in the same manner as I have loved you’? Think about how He loved Mary - to the fullness of His capacity, as He perfectly fulfills the commandment to honour His mother along with the other nine.

But love is not a feeling. I respect the saints, especially Mary, since she is the greatest. I love them in the “love your neighbor as yourself” way. Loving feelings cannot be commanded, especially among those who do not have the capacity to have loving feelings for many people; that would be a violation of the first commandment.

I think the Church does us a huge disservice by assuming that devotion to Mary and the other saints is for everyone.