C
Caesar
Guest
Hahaha!! I didnt even catch that! Good for you
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M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
Do not equate holy office and position to keep the person holy.
There are holy priests and laity. There are not so holy priests and laity.
Michael
C
Caesar
Guest
A priest is a priest regardless of his personal holiness. In this he cannot be equated with a layman, even less with a protestant minister.
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
Not true of Pope Alexander VI, the ex-Bishop of Galway, as well as any priest who has acted improperly. Doesn’t matter if one is a priest or lay person, we are called to live in, not according to society.
Michael
C
Caesar
Guest
Do you believe that a priest loses his holy office if he does not lead a holy life?
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
I never said a priest was not a priest.
You said “For a priest is separated from the rest of society by his holy office and position.”
If his holiness is less than a lay person’s he will be equated as less holy by his brothers and sisters in Christ, as we will be known by our fruits, not by titles and offices alone.
Some protestant ministers may be more Christ-like than some priests. Some protestants might be more Christ-like than some priests. Some Catholic laity are more Christ-like than some priests.
Michael
Michael
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
I thought that the heresy of Donatism had been condemned.
C
Caesar
Guest
But what separates a priest from the laity, and especialy the protestant ministers? He has recieved the Sacrament of Holy Orders, and those is judged differantly then the layman, for the priest is an example, therefore by unholy actions and words he can lead others astray. So the priest is accountable also for their souls, and so because of his holy office God holds him by higher, holier, standards then the ordinary layman.
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
Yes, teachers are held to a higher standard, because of the office they are entrusted with.
The office itself does not necessarily infuse holiness into the individual, thus a lay Catholic or lay Christian may be more Christ-like than the individual who hold the office of priest.
The teacher is accountable for leading souls astray. Yet those souls also are individually accountable, and are not excused solely based on the adequacy or inadequacy of their teachers.
Since many lay persons are capable of reasoning, praying, discerning, etc, many will not be lead astray by the short-comings of individual priests. Unless of course the blind follow the blind, which Jesus warned us about.
Michael
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
C
Caesar
Guest
Yes. I pray that the Cardinal realizes his mistakes and repents of them, and that those priests repent of their grave sins. And all the more prayers for their victims and those Catholics who left the Church because of the scandal.
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
Do you think those whose faith was “strong” would have left their faith in adversity or scandal? In the end, each individual will answer for our choices, not what someone else “made us” chose.
Michael
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Caesar
Guest
Still, the actions of these priests did not help the faith of those who were already in it. I am not saying that individuals will not be held accountable if knowingly led astray by a priest, but he must shoulder part of the responsibility. He was entrusted with the care of souls, and if he fails and betrays this trust he must be held accountable.
C
Caesar
Guest
Anyway, I wish I could carry on with this, but for now I must go. I need to get something to eat 
T
tkdnick
Guest
For someone who says he is Catholic and has intimated that he might have felt a call to the priesthood, you sure seem to look down upon & bash the priesthood an awful lot. Why do you have such animosity toward priestly practices, dress, etc.?
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
Where do you get this stuff from? I disagree with celibacy as a requirement for priests. I do not look down upon and bash the priesthood. Our priests are a blessing from God. Why would I go to Mass and confession, and meet regularly with a spiritual advisor if I had animosity toward priestly practices?
Saying one could image how someone might be tempted to think the cassock has a feminine touch, is not saying they should think that. How do you get animosity for priestly dress from that? Besides, it might have been a better choice of words to say “attire” than “dress”, someone might think that hints at a feminine touch.
Michael
T
tkdnick
Guest
You disagree with the priestly practice of celibacy in Latin Rite of The Church. And you have made way more negative comments about priestly attire than just the cassocks. You’ve made comments about the attire of clergy during Mass. You’ve made comments about the different “uniforms” (can’t think of a better word) for different levels of holy orders.
I just don’t understand why you have such issues with these things. You seem particularly focused on priestly celibacy as you’ve started several threads about it. What is so wrong with these things? Why are you so against them?
S
scylla
Guest
Here is an irrefutable arguement on celibacy…
Regardless of the practice of earlier times we should always look for the more faithful practice.
It might be more difficult but to get to heaven it is always better to take the more difficult path. The ideal example of a Priest is Christ and it is recommended by Jesus to be celibate.
The origins of Celibacy then lie with Jesus as He is the source of our Priesthood. This doesn’t mean that married priests are bad, but that Celibacy is recommended by Jesus for the Priesthood.
We then take the more faithful and difficult path.
To argue against it is to argue against what Jesus recommended, no matter how many Jesuits we quote.
God Bless
Scylla
Regardless of the practice of earlier times we should always look for the more faithful practice.
It might be more difficult but to get to heaven it is always better to take the more difficult path. The ideal example of a Priest is Christ and it is recommended by Jesus to be celibate.
The origins of Celibacy then lie with Jesus as He is the source of our Priesthood. This doesn’t mean that married priests are bad, but that Celibacy is recommended by Jesus for the Priesthood.
We then take the more faithful and difficult path.
To argue against it is to argue against what Jesus recommended, no matter how many Jesuits we quote.
God Bless
Scylla
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
Attire for the purpose of honoring and worshiping God is most appropriate. I have made comments that do not approve overly ornate attire, and wondering the motivation for talking about which attire looks more “cool”, and then going on about hats and gloves. I don’t assume, however I wonder where the focus is, on wearing something ornate and colorful with ornate hats and gloves for God’s sake, or for individuals in front.
My comments about different colors or attire for different orders or ranks of Holy Orders so their position can be recognized by what they wear. In my opinion, that can become more about the position and being recognized as such, than about being a brother in Christ.
As for priestly celibacy, I disagree and asked for how others interpret 1 Tim 3 and 4. Expressed my opinion. It appears inconsist with Scripture when the relevant verses are taken in context. When they are isolated, I can certainly see why many would in good faith think Jesus was encouraging celibacy. Additionally, there was not mention of this as pertaining to a certain vocation such as priests.
I know some very holy priests. Very good examples. I have also met some in social situations where I have been surprised at the words that come out of their mouths, or how robust their waistline is. So it seems that for some, the discipline of celibacy does not necessarily reflect a true interior of self-control. If some cannot control the language they speak, who knows the thoughts that are unspoken. Thus, how can one have the purity and self-control to forsake marriage for the kingdom of heaven, when foul language, obesity, smoking, are not consistently controlled. That is not to say we don’t all have our vices and weaknesses, however, not everyone gives an external witness of a holier call of service to God with celibacy (renouncing marriage, which was created by God) without keeping their tongue from foul or improper language (obviously not a gift from God).
Michael
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