From The Washington Post - On Religion

[katy]

The call for justice is inspired by Jesus’ admonition to provide material charity without expecting it to be rewarded by a religious response

What does THAT mean? I has a sort of vaguely superior attitude with no content.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Lets hear you “correctly” interpret these passages which I have cited (explaining how they are different than Marx’s statement)…:juggle:

Alright Vern, please illustrate how they “failed”…

Read Acts! Saint Luke uses the past tense, and says that in the past that’s what they did!

By the time Luke wrote, the experiment had failed and was over.

Note also that the Jerusalem church was thereafter unable to support itself – Paul was very concerned to collect money for Jerusalem.

 

[Peregrino]

Read Acts! Saint Luke uses the past tense, and says that in the past that’s what they did!

By the time Luke wrote, the experiment had failed and was over.

Note also that the Jerusalem church was thereafter unable to support itself – Paul was very concerned to collect money for Jerusalem.

I have read acts.

You are actually going to say that the early church was the end of a “failed social experiment”, even in light of the fact that there was a famine at the time (Acts 11:28-29) and the fact the the early church was supporting widows (Acts 6:1)?

My friend, the simple fact of Paul taking up a collection for the needy in Jerusalem is an example of the principle in action, not its failure!!! They are fulfilling a commandment of the Lord:
"the Lord has commanded…he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack"

 

[vern_humphrey]

I have read acts.

You are actually going to say that the early church was the end of a “failed social experiment”, even in light of the fact that there was a famine at the time (Acts 11:28-29) and the fact the the early church was supporting widows (Acts 6:1)?

Ah, the old “Are you actually going to say” ploy, otherwise known as the strawman argument.

No, I’m saying the experiment with socialism or communism (whatever you choose to call it) failed. And no one can deny that – Luke writes of it in the past tense, and Paul was often involved in raising money for the Church in Jerusalem which had impoverished itself with the experiment.

My friend, the simple fact of Paul taking up a collection for the needy in Jerusalem is an example of the principle in action, not its failure!!! They are fulfilling a commandment of the Lord:
"the Lord has commanded…he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack"

Riiiiight. So how come the oldest and best established Church is the recipient of charity, not the dispenser? Show me where Jerusalem took up a collection for Corinth, or Ephesus.

 

[estesbob]

Lets hear you “correctly” interpret these passages which I have cited (explaining how they are different than Marx’s statement)…:juggle:

They are talking about requirement that we be charitable to our fellow man. What they’re not talking about it is a brutal form of government where the elite few crush the populace and eliminate anyone that gets in their way. Communism and Socialism have never worked and have always cause death, misery and destruction where ever they have been tried. I am sure, however,that they worked just fine in every term paper you were ever wrote.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

They are talking about requirement that we be charitable to our fellow man. What they’re not talking about it is a brutal form of government where the elite few crush the populace and eliminate anyone that gets in their way. Communism and Socialism have never worked and have always cause death, misery and destruction where ever they have been tried. I am sure, however,that they worked just fine in every term paper you were ever wrote.

They are looking at the effect of Christian charity without looking at the Cause of Christian charity. They are looking at the loaves and fishes without looking at the Real Presence.

Folks want to help God. Then they think that they can do better than God. Then they banish God altogether from the equation.

Sure we need to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, house the homeless, and so on. But NOT WITHOUT THE REAL PRESENCE. If social experiments failed they failed because folks stepped ahead of God and became their own gods.

Feeding the hungry became exterminating millions so that there were less hungry. Such is fallen logic.

 

[vern_humphrey]

They are talking about requirement that we be charitable to our fellow man. What they’re not talking about it is a brutal form of government where the elite few crush the populace and eliminate anyone that gets in their way. Communism and Socialism have never worked and have always cause death, misery and destruction where ever they have been tried. I am sure, however,that they worked just fine in every term paper you were ever wrote.

I am amazed that all those who defend Marxism, anarchism and so on don’t just go and live in one of those “worker’s paradises.”

 

[Peregrino]

No, I’m saying the experiment with socialism or communism (whatever you choose to call it) failed. And no one can deny that – Luke writes of it in the past tense, and Paul was often involved in raising money for the Church in Jerusalem which had impoverished itself with the experiment.

Are you really arguing that the simple use of the past tense in a document written after the events transpired indicates that the “experiment” as you called it failed? Is that your only “evidence” or do you have other “evidence”? Is it possible that charity was required for the Jerusalem church because of some other circumstances, say “famine” (as indicated by Acts)?

I do not see the “necessity” of your assumption that the oldest established community would not require charity.

I am amazed that all those who defend Marxism, anarchism and so on don’t just go and live in one of those “worker’s paradises.”

Once again you like to revert to an ad hominem. I am simply isolating similarities between the gospel and Marx’s statement. I do not defend, advocate or even remotely admire regimes that you seem to think I like. I find this personally offensive and I wish you would stop. To suggest in anyway that I would support someone like Pol Pot is insulting and extremely offensive to me.

You like to make the leap from priniciple (socialism) to dictatorial regime (Stalin, Pol Pot or whoever it is you want to insult me with). These principles are found in our Gospels, in fact, the qoute from Exodus has it as “a commandment of the Lord”. Is the Kingdom of God even remotely similiar to that of a Pol Pot? These principles are apparently to be found within the Kingdom.

 

[Peregrino]

They are talking about requirement that we be charitable to our fellow man.

Sure, that is what the gospel qoutes are saying, but what about the qoute from Marx? Does it say anything different? Not one bit.

Communism and Socialism have never worked and have always cause death, misery and destruction where ever they have been tried.

Tell this to God, Jesus and maybe a couple apostles when you meet them. I am sure they would be glad to hear it from you and listen to your advice!

 

[estesbob]

Sure, that is what the gospel qoutes are saying, but what about the qoute from Marx? Does it say anything different? Not one bit.

Tell this to God, Jesus and maybe a couple apostles when you meet them. I am sure they would be glad to hear it from you and listen to your advice!

You havce to prove that that Jesus or Apostles preached the failed essage of Marx. What you have done is the play usual sciprture game we see so much of-take a few random verses(generally out of context), add to that your** personal** interperation of what they mean and by golly LOOK_Scripture validates my beliefs!

 

[Peregrino]

You havce to prove that that Jesus or Apostles preached the failed essage of Marx. What you have done is the play usual sciprture game we see so much of-take a few random verses(generally out of context), add to that your** personal** interperation of what they mean and by golly LOOK_Scripture validates my beliefs!

I don’t see anywhere that I have put my interpretation into this thread, you are simply claiming that I am so you can shout me down.

Once again, I have only compared Marx’s statement to those in the Bible. That’s it. I actually asked you to interpret them and you only interpreted the Bible and avoided Marx’s statement other than to set out on a tirade on what you think is Marx’s statement taken to its natural conclusion. The simple fact is that they are the same. I would agree with you 100% that these statements can be used to justify some pretty nasty things, however the same can probably be said for any agenda, philosophy or theology.

 

[estesbob]

I don’t see anywhere that I have put my interpretation into this thread, you are simply claiming that I am so you can shout me down.

Once again, I have only compared Marx’s statement to those in the Bible. That’s it. I actually asked you to interpret them and you only interpreted the Bible and avoided Marx’s statement other than to set out on a tirade on what you think is Marx’s statement taken to its natural conclusion. The simple fact is that they are the same. I would agree with you 100% that these statements can be used to justify some pretty nasty things, however the same can probably be said for any agenda, philosophy or theology.

No they are not the same. Not even close. And what you casually describe as a philosophy has NEVER worked and has ALWAYS led to suffering, depravation and death.

 

[mapleoak]

I am amazed that all those who defend Marxism, anarchism and so on don’t just go and live in one of those “worker’s paradises.”

Because they are ‘thinking about others’ rather than themselves.

 

[mlchance]

Lets hear you “correctly” interpret these passages which I have cited (explaining how they are different than Marx’s statement)…

Karl Marx explicitly advocated murdering property owners, stealing their property, placing that property under state control, and then distributing the produce of that property to people based on the state’s assessment of need. Along the way, this requires placing every aspect of society – most especially religion – under control of the state, which can brook no challenge to its presumptive ultimate authority.

Now, please identify which elements of the early Church advocated mass murder, theft, and subjugation of all elements of society to a centralized state.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Are you really arguing that the simple use of the past tense in a document written after the events transpired indicates that the “experiment” as you called it failed? Is that your only “evidence” or do you have other “evidence”? Is it possible that charity was required for the Jerusalem church because of some other circumstances, say “famine” (as indicated by Acts)?

Was the experiment still going on when Luke wrote? It wasn’t.

Is Christianity still a religion where everyone gives everything to the Church? It isn’t.

QED

I do not see the “necessity” of your assumption that the oldest established community would not require charity.

It did require charity. And you don’t see Paul or other Apostles taking up collections for other communities, do you?

Once again you like to revert to an ad hominem.

Get a dictionary and look up ad hominem.

I am simply isolating similarities between the gospel and Marx’s statement. I do not defend, advocate or even remotely admire regimes that you seem to think I like. I find this personally offensive and I wish you would stop. To suggest in anyway that I would support someone like Pol Pot is insulting and extremely offensive to me.

Regimes like that of Pol Pot – or Joseph Stalin, or Eric Honnaker – are exactly what you get when communism takes over. Brutual dictatorships are inherent in Marxism.

You like to make the leap from priniciple (socialism) to dictatorial regime

No, communism makes the leap from principle to dictatorial regime, Every time.

(Stalin, Pol Pot or whoever it is you want to insult me with). These principles are found in our Gospels, in fact, the qoute from Exodus has it as “a commandment of the Lord”. Is the Kingdom of God even remotely similiar to that of a Pol Pot? These principles are apparently to be found within the Kingdom.

Wrong. Nowhere do the Gospels condone the use of force. But communism and socialism do – they are governmental acts, backed by governmental force.