From to Catholicism to Orthodoxy

[rmills1]

Aren’t the Orthodox the same way? They keep the faith as it was in the First Millennium. They are resistant to change, in a good way

As a man of science, one way I think we can increase in faith is the continued learning of reason/logic/science. God is reasonable and God is truth, therefore anything that we discover in this universe that is true and reasonable must bring us closer in faith to God.

For all intents and purpose, the Orthodox consider Catholics as heretics for the implicit translation and inclusion of the filioque clause in the Latin Nicene Creed, even though it was meant to combat Arianism. They affirm the primacy of the Peter but reject the leadership the Pope presents to the Church. They believe that Mary was free from the sin of Adam but reject the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

The further we investigate our faith, the more reasonable and more comforting it becomes.

 

[lucien123]

I honestly believe that people here are overreacting. For gods sake be happy that she isnt becoming a protestant. The catholic Church was Originally An Orthodox Church, It was Originally the Orthodox Church of Rome, before the great Schism and all that…

All Catholic practices and Sacraments are in fact branched off from Original Orthodoxy. With that being said, Both Churches are valid, they do have minor differences and used different calenders, and different rites. But the catholic church considers the Orthodox church to be a Sister, although not in full communion…

Please people, there’s no need to discriminate. The orthodox church is as Valid as the Catholic Church, check out the Catechism and you will see that Orthodox are allowed to take part in Catholic Sacraments, do you people really think this is without a reason?

I do not see a need to continue a thousand years of arguments on a forum. Bottom line, conversion is her choice, god did give her free will right?

 

[L_piperatus]

Since our patriarch has no immediate jurisdiction over us, unlike our diocesan bishop, I can assure you that you are simply making a caricature of Orthodoxy which is incorrect, because you are applying an ecclesiology unique to your Church to ours (i.e., you equate patriarchs with popes). I can understand not wanting people to leave your Church, because you consider it to have the fullness of the truth, but that doesn’t mean that you therefore must tell untruths about the Orthodox Church in order to achieve that end.

It was not my intent to show a caricature or say untruths about the EOC.

I realize I made a mistake (at least as far as Russian Orthodox ecclesiology has been set up since a Russian Tsar invented the structure of a Holy Synod, which can elect and depose a Patriarch) by mentioning the Metropolitan of ROCOR and the Patriarch of Moscow as examples of ultimate authority within Eastern Orthodoxy - I should have mentioned their respective Holy Synods instead, as my new authorities who were going to replace the Pope in the case that I was going to convert to EO.

That being said, my warning remains the same: if you are a Catholic converting to Orthodoxy, you are rejecting the one legitimate Shepherd who was placed into that position by Jesus Christ - and that Shepherd is, of course, Peter and his successor the Pope. By converting, you are removing yourself from under the true Shepherd’s authority and protection, and you are placing yourself under the authority of some other self-appointed “Shepherd” who essentially usurped that power from the real Shepherd, who didn’t receive from God the charisms necessary to perform that job, and who will consequently lead you astray.

I’m not saying that EO clergy are trying to lead astray and harm the sheep on purpose, but yeah, that’s what they do in the ultimate analysis. They didn’t receive the charism of infallibility apart from Peter’s successor the Pope, they are blind leaders, and they are leading astray and harming those converts who made the unfortunate decision to abandon the leadership of the Pope and follow these EO leaders instead.

Whether the ultimate authority/leader/shepherd in a particular EO Church is the Metropolitan, the Patriarch, or their Holy Synods, my point remains: they have usurped the authority of Peter, and you as a convert are leaving your God-appointed Shepherd in order to place yourself under the yoke of a usurper.

That’s why I say, the answer to the OP’s question is a no-brainer. Removing yourself from the authority and protection of the legitimate Shepherd appointed by Jesus Christ is bad. Choosing to follow a false shepherd instead of the real one is bad. The best the OP can do for her friend, is pray for her to receive the grace and not commit this mistake of leaving the fold of Peter and his successor the Pope.

Here’s what Jesus Christ told to Peter (John 21: 15-17):

15
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”
16
He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”
17
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, “Feed my sheep.”

Please show me where did Jesus Christ appoint anyone else to feed his lambs, tend his sheep, and feed his sheep. You won’t be able to. Whether it’s the EO priests, bishops, Metropolitans, Patriarchs, or their Holy Synods, none of them received this commission and this authority which Peter did. Ergo, they usurped the authority of Peter. And they are trying to lift a weight that’s simply too heavy for them to lift because, unlike Peter, they never received the gift to be able to lift it.

When an EO shepherd (and it doesn’t matter if it’s an EO priest, bishop, Metropolitan, Patriarch, or Holy Synod) is telling a Catholic convert to reject the Pope, and to reject such dogmas and doctrines as the purgatory, the filioque, papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, or her Assumption, that EO shepherd is usurping the role of the true Shepherd who is Peter’s successor the Pope, and that EO shepherd is leading the sheep astray.

This is why leaving Catholicism is not inconsequential, and the best the OP can do for her friend, is to pray that her friend remains in the safety of Peter’s fold, where she won’t be lead astray and harmed by false shepherds and blind leaders.

 

[L_piperatus]

And I could see the Orthodox arguments that the Catholic church has similar issues what with the SSPX, the protestants ect. It’s not like there have not been heresies and schisms all along. We did just welcome some Anglicans back.

“Where Peter is, there is the Church.” “This (Rome) is the one Church everybody should agree with.”

I’m paraphrasing the Early Church Fathers above.

So, it’s not the same with the Catholic Church. All I have to ask about SSPX, Protestants, Anglicans, etc, is this: Are they under the authority of the Pope? Those who accept the authority of the Pope, are inside the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Other groups are outside the Church.

But with Eastern Orthodoxy, to this day I am perplexed - what’s their test for Orthodoxy, when two EO Churches break communion? Who should I commune with, if I happen to be EO?

Let’s take the example of when the Moscow Patriarch broke communion with the EP of Constantinople, during the 1990s. Moscow dropped the name of the Ecumenical Patriarch from the diptychs - an official expression of the fact that Moscow considered the EP to have fallen away from Orthodoxy, and an expression of the fact that Moscow had broken communion with Constantinople. So, in a case like this, what’s the test for me, as a layperson, about whom should I follow? Shall I believe Moscow, that Constantinople has fallen away from Orthodoxy? Shall I stop attending/communing in the EP’s churches or not?

Or let’s take ROCOR. When I was considering converting, I was told not to attend and commune in Greek, Antiochian, Romanian EO Churches that use the New Calendar. But they said I was allowed to attend EO churches that used the Old Calendar.

 

[Cavaradossi]

It was not my intent to show a caricature or say untruths about the EOC.

I realize I made a mistake (at least as far as Russian Orthodox ecclesiology has been set up since a Russian Tsar invented the structure of a Holy Synod, which can elect and depose a Patriarch) by mentioning the Metropolitan of ROCOR and the Patriarch of Moscow as examples of ultimate authority within Eastern Orthodoxy - I should have mentioned their respective Holy Synods instead, as my new authorities who were going to replace the Pope in the case that I was going to convert to EO.

You still don’t get it, your bishop is your authority in Orthodoxy. The early church fathers made this very clear. A for the holy synod and Peter the Great, you’re mixing your history up. Synods have always had the power to depose their primates. This even happened with several bishops of Rome during the so-called saeculum obscurum in the tenth century (and some of those popes were even deposed by new regimes when a new Italian family would come into power). What Peter the Great did was abolish the office of patriarch. Since the Orthodox do not believe that primatial structures are divinely ordained, it really isn’t a problem. While it definitely isn’t a high point in Orthodox history, I’d be careful what you mention, since the history of the papacy is filled with similar intrigue.

That being said, my warning remains the same: if you are a Catholic converting to Orthodoxy, you are rejecting the one legitimate Shepherd who was placed into that position by Jesus Christ - and that Shepherd is, of course, Peter and his successor the Pope. By converting, you are removing yourself from under the true Shepherd’s authority and protection, and you are placing yourself under the authority of some other self-appointed “Shepherd” who essentially usurped that power from the real Shepherd, who didn’t receive from God the charisms necessary to perform that job, and who will consequently lead you astray.

I’m not saying that EO clergy are trying to lead astray and harm the sheep on purpose, but yeah, that’s what they do in the ultimate analysis. They didn’t receive the charism of infallibility apart from Peter’s successor the Pope, they are blind leaders, and they are leading astray and harming those converts who made the unfortunate decision to abandon the leadership of the Pope and follow these EO leaders instead.

Whether the ultimate authority/leader/shepherd in a particular EO Church is the Metropolitan, the Patriarch, or their Holy Synods, my point remains: they have usurped the authority of Peter, and you as a convert are leaving your God-appointed Shepherd in order to place yourself under the yoke of a usurper.

That’s why I say, the answer to the OP’s question is a no-brainer. Removing yourself from the authority and protection of the legitimate Shepherd appointed by Jesus Christ is bad. Choosing to follow a false shepherd instead of the real one is bad. The best the OP can do for her friend, is pray for her to receive the grace and not commit this mistake of leaving the fold of Peter and his successor the Pope.

Here’s what Jesus Christ told to Peter (John 21: 15-17):

15
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”
16
He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”
17
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, “Feed my sheep.”

Please show me where did Jesus Christ appoint anyone else to feed his lambs, tend his sheep, and feed his sheep. You won’t be able to. Whether it’s the EO priests, bishops, Metropolitans, Patriarchs, or their Holy Synods, none of them received this commission and this authority which Peter did. Ergo, they usurped the authority of Peter. And they are trying to lift a weight that’s simply too heavy for them to lift because, unlike Peter, they never received the gift to be able to lift it.

When an EO shepherd (and it doesn’t matter if it’s an EO priest, bishop, Metropolitan, Patriarch, or Holy Synod) is telling a Catholic convert to reject the Pope, and to reject such dogmas and doctrines as the purgatory, the filioque, papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, or her Assumption, that EO shepherd is usurping the role of the true Shepherd who is Peter’s successor the Pope, and that EO shepherd is leading the sheep astray.

This is why leaving Catholicism is not inconsequential, and the best the OP can do for her friend, is to pray that her friend remains in the safety of Peter’s fold, where she won’t be lead astray and harmed by false shepherds and blind leaders.

I don’t have a problem with you believing in any of that stuff, nor is it my intention to start a debate with you on papal authority in this thread, which we obviously disagree upon. I do have a huge problem, however, with the amount of misinformation you’ve spread about Orthodoxy in just this thread alone (inflating the power of patriarchs to make them look like little popes, making polemics about churches being out of communion when they are actually in communion, etc.). It would be nice if you would stop doing that.

 

[Michael85]

Why would God lead someone out of His Holy Church?

Because His Holy Church is bigger than the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Padraig1972]

I wish we could support-back each other up rather than bickering like angry little children. Imagine what the poster feels like or what the person that concidering to convert feels like.

Do we show any regard for them in this thread? No, the me, me and me factor seems more important (the my daddy is bigger and stronger than yours factor, kids does this…not grown men and women).

I am in a situation myself where i feel drawn to some of the elements in the orthodox church and it scares me, because i would loose my job, loose friends and the place i have found in the CC. And i am not even sure why it happens.

That i have a hard time with liberals and behaviour during the Novo Ordo mass can`t just be it, can it?

 

[Rich_C]

It’s hard to focus on being supportive when Catholic posters are misinforming the OP about the gravity of leaving the Church, and offering false ecclesiology. Isn’t this supposed to be Catholic Answers?

Dear OP, I’ll keep praying for you and your friend, but I think you should look elsewhere for advice in the future.

 

[Padraig1972]

It’s hard to focus on being supportive when Catholic posters are misinforming the OP about the gravity of leaving the Church, and offering false ecclesiology. Isn’t this supposed to be Catholic Answers?

Dear OP, I’ll keep praying for you and your friend, but I think you should look elsewhere for advice in the future.

It is sad to say, but the apologist section is the best one to use here. A priest or spiritual director (if one is so lucky to have that) would be the very best advice. But i will pray for them too and for my own insecurity too.

 

[ConstantineTG]

As a man of science, one way I think we can increase in faith is the continued learning of reason/logic/science. God is reasonable and God is truth, therefore anything that we discover in this universe that is true and reasonable must bring us closer in faith to God.

For all intents and purpose, the Orthodox consider Catholics as heretics for the implicit translation and inclusion of the filioque clause in the Latin Nicene Creed, even though it was meant to combat Arianism. They affirm the primacy of the Peter but reject the leadership the Pope presents to the Church. They believe that Mary was free from the sin of Adam but reject the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

The further we investigate our faith, the more reasonable and more comforting it becomes.

Anything we “discover”? There are no new public revelations. We do not discover anything.

 

[ConstantineTG]

God’s Church is the visible Catholic Church, which the Orthodox have been outside of for about 1,000 years. I think you’re taking the late Holy Father out of context, when he is saying that there is an Eastern kind of Christianity expressed through these particular churches that is as authentic as the Roman tradition. However, he’s leaving aside the issue that some of those particular churches are not in communion with the Catholic Church, because it’s not what he wants to write about there.

Here’s a relevent passage from the Baltimore Catechism, available on ETWN’s webiste:

With all due respect to our Orthodox posters, we see the True Church’s identity differently, and the Catholics here ought to take the matter of someone leaving for Orthodoxy seriously, as the sin of schism. I’ve read enough Orthodox apologetics to know that in general they feel the same way about us.

So just because the Orthodox feel a certain way about us, we should feel that same way about them as well? I thought you said that we have the fullness of truth. If we do, shouldn’t we be smarter than them and not just be 100% like them?

It’s hard to focus on being supportive when Catholic posters are misinforming the OP about the gravity of leaving the Church, and offering false ecclesiology. Isn’t this supposed to be Catholic Answers?

Dear OP, I’ll keep praying for you and your friend, but I think you should look elsewhere for advice in the future.

It seems you are the one misinforming. Can you support your claim that the Orthodox is indeed outside of the Church when the Popes have clearly said otherwise? Even the CCC says as such:

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

 

[Seamus_L]

Read what the Orthodox themselves have to say oca.org/questions/romancatholicism then ask yourself whether or not they believe we’re practically the same church.

 

[Rich_C]

It seems you are the one misinforming. Can you support your claim that the Orthodox is indeed outside of the Church when the Popes have clearly said otherwise? Even the CCC says as such:

From the CCC:

1399 The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. “These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy.” A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged.”

The CCC uses diplomatic language, but doesn’t overturn the position the Church has held for hundreds of years. After Paul VI lifted the excommunication of the Patriarch of Constantinople strides toward unity were made, such as allowing the faithful to inter-communicate with the permission of bishops from both churches, but nowhere has a pope or council declared that the Orthodox are no longer in schism.

I wish we could PM this and let people help the OP, but for the sake of those reading, the Church’s teaching should have the last word.

 

[MrPip]

I wish we could support-back each other up rather than bickering like angry little children. Imagine what the poster feels like or what the person that concidering to convert feels like.

Do we show any regard for them in this thread? No, the me, me and me factor seems more important (the my daddy is bigger and stronger than yours factor, kids does this…not grown men and women).

I am in a situation myself where i feel drawn to some of the elements in the orthodox church and it scares me, because i would loose my job, loose friends and the place i have found in the CC. And i am not even sure why it happens.

That i have a hard time with liberals and behaviour during the Novo Ordo mass can`t just be it, can it?

You may already have done so, but have you looked into the Eastern Catholic Church? I guess it sort of depends of just which “elements in the orthodox church” you feel drawn to. If they are ones that do not include rejection of the Papacy, the Eastern Catholic Church(es) may be just what you’re looking for. And you get to remain fully Catholic !

 

[MrPip]

Read what the Orthodox themselves have to say oca.org/questions/romancatholicism then ask yourself whether or not they believe we’re practically the same church.

You beat me to it!

Many Orthodox do not even consider that the Catholic Church possesses sacramental Grace, and do not recognize or accept our Holy Sacraments.

(I’m beginning to think maybe this thread needs to continue in a different section here on CA .)

 

[mommamia]

Back to the OP. Have you asked your friend why she is drawn to Orthodoxy? That would be a good place to start. You can’t have a meaningful dialogue if you refuse to even hear the other side. (not saying anyone here is refusing to hear, just a general observation)

I’m going to say you can never go wrong praying for God’s will to be done.

 

[ConstantineTG]

From the CCC:

The CCC uses diplomatic language, but doesn’t overturn the position the Church has held for hundreds of years. After Paul VI lifted the excommunication of the Patriarch of Constantinople strides toward unity were made, such as allowing the faithful to inter-communicate with the permission of bishops from both churches, but nowhere has a pope or council declared that the Orthodox are no longer in schism.

I wish we could PM this and let people help the OP, but for the sake of those reading, the Church’s teaching should have the last word.

So their Eucharist is valid and yet they are outside the Church? So Christ the head of the Church manifests himself outside of his mystical body?

Can you see how you are wrong here?

Also, separated doesn’t mean outside. How do you get into the Church? Through baptism. If the Orthodox baptism is valid, where does their baptism take them? To a valid Church that is not the Catholic Church? Is there more than one Church? Kind of contrary to what is taught from both Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, no?

 

[ConstantineTG]

You beat me to it!

Many Orthodox do not even consider that the Catholic Church possesses sacramental Grace, and do not recognize or accept our Holy Sacraments.

(I’m beginning to think maybe this thread needs to continue in a different section here on CA .)

Again, so what? If we have the fullness of truth and we believe the Orthodox to be valid, then we should know more than we do, right? If we are going to believe what the Orthodox believe because that is what the Orthodox believe, then it is implying we believe they have the fullness of truth, and we’re just following their lead.

 

[Rich_C]

So their Eucharist is valid and yet they are outside the Church? So Christ the head of the Church manifests himself outside of his mystical body?

Can you see how you are wrong here?

Also, separated doesn’t mean outside. How do you get into the Church? Through baptism. If the Orthodox baptism is valid, where does their baptism take them? To a valid Church that is not the Catholic Church? Is there more than one Church? Kind of contrary to what is taught from both Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, no?

1. All Protestants have valid baptisms. You wouldn’t deny they’re outside the Church, right? Valid sacraments are not sufficient for being part of the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. A church also has to hold all the teachings of the Faith and submit to the pope.
2. See point 1. In 1896 Pope Leo XIII had a commission study the validity of Anglican holy orders. As a matter of fact they found them lacking in form and invalid, and declared that infallibly with a bull, but if they had proven valid would you then argue that the CoE within the Church? I don’t see how it would change anything and Pope Leo didn’t either.

The Orthodox are far nearer to us than Protestants are, I grant you. But their schism and denial of certain infallible teachings is serious business and leaves them out of the fold.

Please stop leading people astray TG. Can we continue this through PM so other people don’t have to read it?

 

[ConstantineTG]

1. All Protestants have valid baptisms. You wouldn’t deny they’re outside the Church, right? Valid sacraments are not sufficient for being part of the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. A church also has to hold all the teachings of the Faith and submit to the pope.

First, not all Protestant Baptisms are valid. Again that is not what the Church teaches. Only Trinitarian baptisms are valid. Those who baptize in Jesus’ name only do not have valid baptisms. Those who use gender-neutral or feminist baptismal formulas also do not have valid baptisms.

But they Christians, thus considered within the Church. Tell me this, why is a Muslim baptize when he converts to Catholicism, and a Lutheran isn’t?

1. See point 1. In 1896 Pope Leo XIII had a commission study the validity of Anglican holy orders. As a matter of fact they found them lacking in form and invalid, and declared that infallibly with a bull, but if they had proven valid would you then argue that the CoE within the Church? I don’t see how it would change anything and Pope Leo didn’t either.

The Orthodox are far nearer to us than Protestants are, I grant you. But their schism and denial of certain infallible teachings is serious business and leaves them out of the fold.

Please stop leading people astray TG. Can we continue this through PM so other people don’t have to read it?

Sorry RichC, it seems that you are the one who has misunderstood what the Church teaches. I think you misunderstood the meaning of being within the Church and being in communion with Rome. They are two different things. Rome herself defined so. If schism puts you outside of the Church, then Orthodox Bishops and Priests could not perform Sacraments that Rome herself sees as valid. To deny that is to go against what the Catholic Church herself says.