From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

[Bookcat]

While the Church teaches that one may not deprive the other, it also teaches that one may not demand from the other. Neither husband nor wife has the right to sexual intercourse on demand. One must have compassion and respect for the other’s emotional and physical state.

Yes, we have a right to sex within marriage, but sex is a gift of self, not something we can demand whenever we have the urge without regard to the other’ person’s state.

-Tim-

The “marital dept” is a reality that must always be borne in mind. There is a real right. A right exchanged at the wedding. Though yes there are exceptions to that right…and of course as Christians…love and understanding are to be played large.

 

[Muze]

The Church in her wisdom disagrees.

…except perhaps by mutual consent for a time…(1 Corinthians 7:4)

Mutual consent is not denial.

-Tim-

You’re in direct contrast to waht Paul is saying. The command is no not deny, and the exception is by mutual consent. So, even voluntary denial is still denial.

 

[Debora123]

While the Church teaches that one may not deprive the other, it also teaches that one may not demand from the other. Neither husband nor wife has the right to sexual intercourse on demand. One must have compassion and respect for the other’s emotional and physical state.

Yes, we have a right to sex within marriage, but sex is a gift of self, not something we can demand whenever we have the urge without regard to the other’ person’s state.

-Tim-

Of course, I don’t think anyone has the right to DEMAND sex, ever. It should be a loving act of self gift to each other, not to self. I am sorry if my post came across that way, because that is not at all what I meant.

 

[Muze]

While the Church teaches that one may not deprive the other, it also teaches that one may not demand from the other. Neither husband nor wife has the right to sexual intercourse on demand. One must have compassion and respect for the other’s emotional and physical state.

Yes, we have a right to sex within marriage, but sex is a gift of self, not something we can demand whenever we have the urge without regard to the other’ person’s state.

-Tim-

Do you suppose when one is a condition that would make sex harmful, that this would be a good time for prayer?

 

[Bookcat]

The right exists…and the gift and right were given …exchanged…at time of the consent.
Which also includes the obligation to be open to life each time.

The seeking the exercise of such a right is not per se a seeking of self (unless it is contraceptive…which by nature is a meaningless act and is objectively selfish)

 

[Debora123]

The right exists…and the gift and right were given …exchanged…at time of the consent.
Which also includes the obligation to be open to life each time.

The seeking the exercise of such a right is not per se a seeking of self (unless it is contraceptive…which by nature is a meaningless act and is objectively selfish)

:nope:

 

[Bookcat]

Do you suppose when one is a condition that would make sex harmful, that this would be a good time for prayer?

Paul is not intending for everyone to seek to fit every situation into one line that he wrote…he is not intending this to be the only reason that could come up…(see above)

Your misunderstanding Paul …

The kids have a bad dream and come sleep with Mom and Dad…even though Mom and Dad had other plans that night…so since Mom read your post she says…“oh oh honey we will have to forgo tonight…but you know Paul said the only reason we could do such if we did it for a time of prayer…so lets get up and pray so we fulfill his requirement…”

 

[Bookcat]

:nope:

:yup::yup::yup: …meaningless and objectively selfish…and indeed non marital.

 

[Muze]

Paul is not intending for everyone to seek to fit every situation into one line that he wrote…he is not intending this to be the only reason that could come up…(see above)

Your misunderstanding Paul …

The kids have a bad dream and come sleep with Mom and Dad…even though Mom and Dad had other plans that night…so since Mom read your post she says…“oh oh honey we will have to forgo tonight…but you know Paul said the only reason we could do such if we did it for a time of prayer…so lets get up and pray so we fulfill his requirement…”

Or… the parents actually be grownups and tell the kid to suck it up and go back to bed. (OK, not necessarily in that voice, but that’s a good time to have that kind of discussion.)

I find it quite incredible that you find it necessary to void the text of Scripture by adding to it because you have a doctrine that contradicts it.

 

[Bookcat]

Or… the parents actually be grownups and tell the kid to suck it up and go back to bed. (OK, not necessarily in that voice, but that’s a good time to have that kind of discussion.)

I find it quite incredible that you find it necessary to void the text of Scripture by adding to it because you have a doctrine that contradicts it.

You are being unreasonable here (as Paul himself would tell you…he was one for reason…) And are taking Scripture in a way that it was not intended to be taken.

I do not void the text I live it.

(by the way …the text also …I will note for readers since we are on the subject…is contrary to contraception …for in such one is depriving each other of the actual marital act)

 

[Debora123]

:yup::yup::yup: …meaningless and objectively selfish…and indeed non marital.

No… It isn’t that way for us, and we are not selfish. Also, it HELPED our marriage.

 

[Bookcat]

No… It isn’t that way for us, and we are not selfish. Also, it HELPED our marriage.

Objectively …actually it is. Even if you do not recognize it.
and objectively it has not helped your marriage or any marriage…it is by nature objective contrary to marital love.

 

[Bookcat]

Now of course the comment can come where someone says “contraception is good for my marriage”. My experience of it is good. Not to get into the all the details that it is not good…(one can read all sorts of books etc on the subject)…instead lets look at the general idea of something being good that in fact is an objectively grave evil. Where a person may think their “experience” justifies such an action.

Lets use a different moral issue (though still a grave matter like Contraception) Sometimes this helps …and though they are fictional…and hopefully more far fetched then real (though given our world it is possible) …I hope they will help.

Leo and Sally are married…they are engaged in adultery with others…and are very unhappy. They have a conversion …and repent of their deeds and set out to follow Christ faithfully and to be faithful to each other. The find this really also helps their marriage. And they find that they have new life in him here…and look forward to being with him…happy they are not longer living in a way that would send them to hell but are following he who is life. Many like couples experience the same and objectively they are doing good.

Sam and Sue are married. Their marriage is troubled. They are always fighting about Sam’s unhappiness about Sue not want sexual relations so often. They are terribly unhappy. Sam prays about it…and decides that God will understand if he finds a companion on the side for the sake of his family…heck men have done so in all ages. Sam decides to have an affair on the side. The fighting practically goes away entirely…the affair continues for years and years…and they report their marriage is now happy. Sam in a discussion with a friend with similar problems…suggests he get a girl on the side…for this has saved their marriage and they are now happy.…and when he later meets with his friend…he finds his friend has had the same experience…so he is confirmed in his feeling…I had to save my family…it was good for my marriage…

So it can be said that some find that adultery is helpful to their marital happiness…

Does that make it “good”?

No.

Can there be spiritual consequences to such…yes …of the most grave kind.

The ends do not* justify* the means.

Adultery and other gravely evil proposals are always and everywhere evil …they are contrary to God…and* even if someone experiences some “temporal” happiness* …even if they think “this will help my marriage”…or “this is good for such and such”…“I need to do such and such otherwise such and such will happen”…

It is the age old thing that the Bible talks about…the choosing of some temporal or “apparent” happiness…over God and true happiness…true life.

Now is it possible that they have a really erroneious conscience that God will take into account?..it is possible…is it possible for some other things to reduce the culpability?..yes it is…but I would not count on either…for often we can be at least guilty along the way in getting there… (read Pope Benedict XVI in Spe Salvi!) and these are very dangerous waters…to say the least…and we have a duty to correct a conscience in error…

Many though perhaps listen to their feelings or even rationalize things away…and think in terms of the temporal good…“this helps my marriage” …“I need to do what the Church thinks is wrong but it is the Church that is wrong” (misunderstanding the nature of the Church and her authority etc)…or “If I do not do X …Y will happen and Y will be bad for me or for my family”…etc…

Such is not the way to go…we are to find another way…the right way.

A “temporal benefit” …a “temporal happiness”…is not necessarily a true happiness and certainly not the final happiness we are called to. A temporal happiness is not worth the exchange.

Jesus is very clear though: what does it profit for a man to gain the whole world…and loose his soul…? ( see Mark 8:36)

---

 

[ahs]

No… It isn’t that way for us, and we are not selfish.

WHAT?! But, Debora123, you are a Catholic…and the Church is very clear that (and gives clear explanations in the CCC and in several encyclicals as to why) contraception is a grave evil…intrinsically immoral and a selfish act, regardless of how it “feels”.

Do you, as a Catholic, really disagree with the Church’s teaching on this? Then how would you be any different than a Protestant? (Nothing against Protestants…it just hurts me to see a Catholic not wanting to be Catholic.)

 

[Bookcat]

A wonderful article by an expert on marriage (in addition to books on it…he served on the Roman Rota court…which looks into marriages).

cormacburke.or.ke/node/282

 

[Debora123]

Objectively …actually it is. Even if you do not recognize it.
and objectively it has not helped your marriage or any marriage…it is by nature objective contrary to marital love.

Mmmm… no, you can’t be selfish in this case without recognizing it. We don’t have sex out of selfishness for ourselves, and neither can you or anyone besides God claim to know what is in my heart and in my intentions.

And yes, it DID help out marriage. I don’t know about others, but it did for us.

 

[Debora123]

WHAT?! But, Debora123, you are a Catholic…and the Church is very clear that (and gives clear explanations in the CCC and in several encyclicals as to why) contraception is a grave evil…intrinsically immoral and a selfish act, regardless of how it “feels”.

Do you, as a Catholic, really disagree with the Church’s teaching on this? Then how would you be any different than a Protestant? (Nothing against Protestants…it just hurts me to see a Catholic not wanting to be Catholic.)

Yes, I do disagree with this, as do most Catholics. I am different from a protestant in every other way. Contraception is not the single only teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[Bookcat]

Mmmm… no, you can’t be selfish in this case without recognizing it. We don’t have sex out of selfishness for ourselves, and neither can you or anyone besides God claim to know what is in my heart and in my intentions.

And yes, it DID help out marriage. I don’t know about others, but it did for us.

Yes one can be. Such is objectively so. Intentions has nothing to do with it. Intentions can not make an objectively gravely evil act into a good act. Or a non-marital act (it is not a martial act due to the contraception) into a marital act.

 

[Bookcat]

Now of course the comment can come where someone says “contraception is good for my marriage”. My experience of it is good.

Not to get into the all the details that it is not good…(one can read all sorts of books etc on the subject)…instead lets look at the general idea of something being good that in fact is an objectively grave evil. Where a person may think their “experience” justifies such an action.

Lets use a different moral issue (though still a grave matter like Contraception) Sometimes this helps …and though they are fictional…and hopefully more far fetched then real (though given our world it is possible) …I hope they will help.

Leo and Sally are married…they are engaged in adultery with others…and are very unhappy. They have a conversion …and repent of their deeds and set out to follow Christ faithfully and to be faithful to each other. The find this really also helps their marriage. And they find that they have new life in him here…and look forward to being with him…happy they are not longer living in a way that would send them to hell but are following he who is life. Many like couples experience the same and objectively they are doing good.

Sam and Sue are married. Their marriage is troubled. They are always fighting about Sam’s unhappiness about Sue not want sexual relations so often. They are terribly unhappy. Sam prays about it…and decides that God will understand if he finds a companion on the side for the sake of his family…heck men have done so in all ages. Sam decides to have an affair on the side. The fighting practically goes away entirely…the affair continues for years and years…and they report their marriage is now happy. Sam in a discussion with a friend with similar problems…suggests he get a girl on the side…for this has saved their marriage and they are now happy.…and when he later meets with his friend…he finds his friend has had the same experience…so he is confirmed in his feeling…I had to save my family…it was good for my marriage…

So it can be said that some find that adultery is helpful to their marital happiness…

Does that make it “good”?

No.

Can there be spiritual consequences to such…yes …of the most grave kind.

The ends do not* justify* the means.

Adultery and other gravely evil proposals are always and everywhere evil …they are contrary to God…and* even if someone experiences some “temporal” happiness* …even if they think “this will help my marriage”…or “this is good for such and such”…“I need to do such and such otherwise such and such will happen”…

It is the age old thing that the Bible talks about…the choosing of some temporal or “apparent” happiness…over God and true happiness…true life.

Now is it possible that they have a really erroneious conscience that God will take into account?..it is possible…is it possible for some other things to reduce the culpability?..yes it is…but I would not count on either…for often we can be at least guilty along the way in getting there… (read Pope Benedict XVI in Spe Salvi!) and these are very dangerous waters…to say the least…and we have a duty to correct a conscience in error…

Many though perhaps listen to their feelings or even rationalize things away…and think in terms of the temporal good…“this helps my marriage” …“I need to do what the Church thinks is wrong but it is the Church that is wrong” (misunderstanding the nature of the Church and her authority etc)…or “If I do not do X …Y will happen and Y will be bad for me or for my family”…etc…

Such is not the way to go…we are to find another way…the right way.

A “temporal benefit” …a “temporal happiness”…is not necessarily a true happiness and certainly not the final happiness we are called to. A temporal happiness is not worth the exchange.

Jesus is very clear though: what does it profit for a man to gain the whole world…and loose his soul…? ( see Mark 8:36)

 

[Debora123]

Yes one can be. Such is objectively so. Intentions has nothing to do with it. Intentions can not make an objectively gravely evil act into a good act. Or a non-marital act (it is not a martial act due to the contraception) into a marital act.

Well I respectfully disagree with your claim that my husband and I are being selfish in bed.