From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

[Katie966]

You’re in direct contrast to waht Paul is saying. The command is no not deny, and the exception is by mutual consent. So, even voluntary denial is still denial.

I’m not understanding you. Isn’t NFP a form of mutual consent?

 

[Bookcat]

Well I respectfully disagree with your claim that my husband and I are being selfish in bed.

Objectively …contraceptive acts by anyone who is married are both non-marital and selfish and gravely disordered…such is the nature (aside from any intent).

 

[Bookcat]

Now of course the comment can come where someone says “contraception is good for my marriage”. My experience of it is good.

Not to get into the all the details that it is not good…(one can read all sorts of books etc on the subject)…instead lets look at the general idea of something being good that in fact is an objectively grave evil. Where a person may think their “experience” justifies such an action.

Lets use a different moral issue (though still a grave matter like Contraception) Sometimes this helps …and though they are fictional…and hopefully more far fetched then real (though given our world it is possible) …I hope they will help.

Leo and Sally are married…they are engaged in adultery with others…and are very unhappy. They have a conversion …and repent of their deeds and set out to follow Christ faithfully and to be faithful to each other. The find this really also helps their marriage. And they find that they have new life in him here…and look forward to being with him…happy they are not longer living in a way that would send them to hell but are following he who is life. Many like couples experience the same and objectively they are doing good.

Sam and Sue are married. Their marriage is troubled. They are always fighting about Sam’s unhappiness about Sue not want sexual relations so often. They are terribly unhappy. Sam prays about it…and decides that God will understand if he finds a companion on the side for the sake of his family…heck men have done so in all ages. Sam decides to have an affair on the side. The fighting practically goes away entirely…the affair continues for years and years…and they report their marriage is now happy. Sam in a discussion with a friend with similar problems…suggests he get a girl on the side…for this has saved their marriage and they are now happy.…and when he later meets with his friend…he finds his friend has had the same experience…so he is confirmed in his feeling…I had to save my family…it was good for my marriage…

So it can be said that some find that adultery is helpful to their marital happiness…

Does that make it “good”?

No.

Can there be spiritual consequences to such…yes …of the most grave kind.

The ends do not* justify* the means.

Adultery and other gravely evil proposals are always and everywhere evil …they are contrary to God…and* even if someone experiences some “temporal” happiness* …even if they think “this will help my marriage”…or “this is good for such and such”…“I need to do such and such otherwise such and such will happen”…

It is the age old thing that the Bible talks about…the choosing of some temporal or “apparent” happiness…over God and true happiness…true life.

Now is it possible that they have a really erroneious conscience that God will take into account?..it is possible…is it possible for some other things to reduce the culpability?..yes it is…but I would not count on either…for often we can be at least guilty along the way in getting there… (read Pope Benedict XVI in Spe Salvi!) and these are very dangerous waters…to say the least…and we have a duty to correct a conscience in error…

Many though perhaps listen to their feelings or even rationalize things away…and think in terms of the temporal good…“this helps my marriage” …“I need to do what the Church thinks is wrong but it is the Church that is wrong” (misunderstanding the nature of the Church and her authority etc)…or “If I do not do X …Y will happen and Y will be bad for me or for my family”…etc…

Such is not the way to go…we are to find another way…the right way.

A “temporal benefit” …a “temporal happiness”…is not necessarily a true happiness and certainly not the final happiness we are called to. A temporal happiness is not worth the exchange.

Jesus is very clear though: what does it profit for a man to gain the whole world…and loose his soul…? ( see Mark 8:36)

 

[Debora123]

Objectively …contraceptive acts by anyone who is married are both non-marital and selfish and gravely disordered…such is the nature (aside from any intent).

:nope:

 

[Muze]

I’m not understanding you. Isn’t NFP a form of mutual consent?

It is… but Paul says by mutual consent for a time for a period of prayer. There are three qualifies there that all must be present.

NFP isn’t mutual consent for a period of prayer.

 

[Odell]

Blacksword, the part I have bolded here is EXACTLY what happened with my husband and I, amongst other things as well. I couldn’t have said it better myself. While it works great for some people, (which is wonderful, and I envy those people) it just didn’t feel right for us. It put pressure on our lovemaking, and ultimately stress on our marriage.

Pressure on lovemaking or pressure on one spouse who wants sensual enjoyment when ever he or she can have it?

Lovemaking and pleasure are good however mere pleasure, and enjoyment is not a good which binds and unites people for long. You yourself said it put stress on your marriage when the lovemaking wasn’t there. When mutual love depends merely on pleasure or self interest, it will be tied together just as long as they remain the source of pleasure or profit to each other. The moment it comes to an end, the real reason for their love will also end, and the illusion of reciprocity will burst like a bubble.

 

[Bookcat]

:nope:

:yup:

 

[Bookcat]

Now of course the comment can come where someone says “contraception is good for my marriage”. My experience of it is good.

Not to get into the all the details that it is not good…(one can read all sorts of books etc on the subject)…instead lets look at the general idea of something being good that in fact is an objectively grave evil. Where a person may think their “experience” justifies such an action.

Lets use a different moral issue (though still a grave matter like Contraception) Sometimes this helps …and though they are fictional…and hopefully more far fetched then real (though given our world it is possible) …I hope they will help.

Leo and Sally are married…they are engaged in adultery with others…and are very unhappy. They have a conversion …and repent of their deeds and set out to follow Christ faithfully and to be faithful to each other. The find this really also helps their marriage. And they find that they have new life in him here…and look forward to being with him…happy they are not longer living in a way that would send them to hell but are following he who is life. Many like couples experience the same and objectively they are doing good.

Sam and Sue are married. Their marriage is troubled. They are always fighting about Sam’s unhappiness about Sue not want sexual relations so often. They are terribly unhappy. Sam prays about it…and decides that God will understand if he finds a companion on the side for the sake of his family…heck men have done so in all ages. Sam decides to have an affair on the side. The fighting practically goes away entirely…the affair continues for years and years…and they report their marriage is now happy. Sam in a discussion with a friend with similar problems…suggests he get a girl on the side…for this has saved their marriage and they are now happy.…and when he later meets with his friend…he finds his friend has had the same experience…so he is confirmed in his feeling…I had to save my family…it was good for my marriage…

So it can be said that some find that adultery is helpful to their marital happiness…

Does that make it “good”?

No.

Can there be spiritual consequences to such…yes …of the most grave kind.

The ends do not* justify* the means.

Adultery and other gravely evil proposals are well… evil …they are contrary to God…and* even if someone experiences some “temporal” happiness* …even if they think “this will help my marriage”…or “this is good for such and such”…“I need to do such and such otherwise such and such will happen”…

It is the age old thing that the Bible talks about…the choosing of some temporal or “apparent” happiness…over God and true happiness…true life.

Now is it possible that they have a really erroneious conscience that God will take into account?..it is possible…is it possible for some other things to reduce the culpability?..yes it is…but I would not count on either…for often we can be at least guilty along the way in getting there… (read Pope Benedict XVI in Spe Salvi!) and these are very dangerous waters…to say the least…and we have a duty to correct a conscience in error…

Many though perhaps listen to their feelings or even rationalize things away…and think in terms of the temporal good…“this helps my marriage” …“I need to do what the Church thinks is wrong but it is the Church that is wrong” (misunderstanding the nature of the Church and her authority etc)…or “If I do not do X …Y will happen and Y will be bad for me or for my family”…etc…

Such is not the way to go…we are to find another way…the right way.

A “temporal benefit” …a “temporal happiness”…is not necessarily a true happiness and certainly not the final happiness we are called to. A temporal happiness is not worth the exchange.

Jesus is very clear though: what does it profit for a man to gain the whole world…and loose his soul…? ( see Mark 8:36)

 

[Debora123]

:yup:

We peacefully agree to disagree. In the mean time I would appreciate it if people stopped telling me that I am being selfish. Thank you.

 

[ahs]

Yes, I do disagree with this, as do most Catholics. I am different from a protestant in every other way. Contraception is not the single only teaching of the Catholic Church.

Right, I know contraception is not the only teaching, and I also know most Catholics actually practice contraception…but that doesn’t make it okay. The Church’s teaching on contraception is just as authoritative and valid and true as its teaching on Christ in the Eucharist, and the succession of the Apostles, and the Holy Trinity.

Dont’ take this as an attack, but you can’t pick the teachings you agree with and ignore the ones you don’t and still procliam union with the Church. If you reject a teaching, you are rejecting the Church. That actually puts you in the same mind of a Protestant…that’s how it all started in in the 16th century, and even before in the first centuries of the Church.

And the part that makes it the most dangerous is that contraception is gravely sinful. Whether you agree with the Church or not, whether it feels good or not, it is a grave sin. That makes it a mortal sin, Debora123, not just for you, but for every one of the majority of Catholics who use it…(if you know it’s a sin…which you now know).

Please, can you tell me which part of the Church’s teaching on contraception you disagree with? I’m not that great of an apologist, but maybe I can shed some light?

 

[Debora123]

Pressure on lovemaking or pressure on one spouse who wants sensual enjoyment when ever he or she can have it?

Pressure on the lovemaking. Blacksword described it pretty well, but there was more to it than that for us. That was just part of it.

Lovemaking and pleasure are good however mere pleasure, and enjoyment is not a good which binds and unites people for long. You yourself said it put stress on your marriage when the lovemaking wasn’t there. When mutual love depends merely on pleasure or self interest, it will be tied together just as long as they remain the source of pleasure or profit to each other. The moment it comes to an end, the real reason for their love will also end, and the illusion of reciprocity will burst like a bubble.

Agreed. Our sex life isn’t about mere pleasure.

 

[Bookcat]

We peacefully agree to disagree. In the mean time I would appreciate it if people stopped telling me that I am being selfish. Thank you.

I am speaking of the objective nature of the action. And I will continue to do so. For such is the nature.

(oh and by the way I have not stated “you are being selfish” as any personal accusation…I have simply stated that contraception in marriage by nature a selfish act. Just as I would say the same about various other disordered actions that are selfish.I have always kept it on the non personal level.)

 

[Debora123]

Right, I know contraception is not the only teaching, and I also know most Catholics actually practice contraception…but that doesn’t make it okay. The Church’s teaching on contraception is just as authoritative and valid and true as its teaching on Christ in the Eucharist, and the succession of the Apostles, and the Holy Trinity.

Dont’ take this as an attack, but you can’t pick the teachings you agree with and ignore the ones you don’t and still procliam union with the Church. If you reject a teaching, you are rejecting the Church. That actually puts you in the same mind of a Protestant…that’s how it all started in in the 16th century, and even before in the first centuries of the Church.

And the part that makes it the most dangerous is that contraception is gravely sinful. Whether you agree with the Church or not, whether it feels good or not, it is a grave sin. That makes it a mortal sin, Debora123, not just for you, but for every one of the majority of Catholics who use it…(if you know it’s a sin…which you now know).

Please, can you tell me which part of the Church’s teaching on contraception you disagree with? I’m not that great of an apologist, but maybe I can shed some light?

This is not true. One can still be a Catholic even while disagreeing about one thing.

I disagree that barrier contraceptives are intrinsically evil.

 

[Debora123]

Originally Posted by **Debora123 **

Ok, well, thanks anyway.

 

[ahs]

It is… but Paul says by mutual consent for a time for a period of prayer. There are three qualifies there that all must be present.

NFP isn’t mutual consent for a period of prayer.

How do you know that NFP isn’t mutal consent for a period of prayer? Aren’t Christians called to pray wihtout ceasing? Can you know with any certainty that a couple abstaining from sex is not inteding on praying together as they mutually abastain?

The fact is that no one can know, except in regards to their own selves. The other fact is that scripture clearly prohibits us from personal interpretation…which makes it a good thing that Christ gave His apostles authority in His Church, so they could interpret it for us and pass down their teachings to us via the Church. Gotta love Catholicism!

 

[Bookcat]

Ok, well, thanks anyway.

I will continue also to say that contraceptive intercourse objectively: gravely sinful, meaningless, contrary to marital love and indeed a non-marital act. (one could say many such things objectively about contraception)

In saying so I am speaking of the action in and of itself. It is for all who use contraception …no matter their intent. It is a general statement applying to all acts.

 

[SonCatcher]

What make NFP better for you?

Practicing NFP allows me to fully embrace my humanity and my wife’s. It is a truly “organic” experience.

 

[Bookcat]

Ok, well, thanks anyway.

I will continue also to say that contraceptive intercourse objectivelyis: gravely sinful, meaningless, contrary to marital love and indeed a non-marital act. (one could say many such things objectively about contraception)

In saying so I am speaking of the action in and of itself. It is for all who use contraception …no matter their intent. It is a general statement applying to all acts. It is not directed as a personal “accusation of intent”.

 

[ahs]

This is not true. One can still be a Catholic even while disagreeing about one thing.

I disagree that barrier contraceptives are intrinsically evil.

Yes, you can still be Catholic and disagree with a teaching…but you must still adhere to the teaching even if you disagree. The **rejection **of the teaching is where you reject the Authority of the Church, and thus reject the Church…a Church that Christ established…and Authority that Christ gave. If you know the Church’s teaching on contraception (which you do) and you disagree (which you do), you still haven’t crossed that line. However, if you reject that teaching by engaging in the condemned behavior (which you say you do, please tell me if I’m wrong) you are now rejecting the Church.

Okay, you disagree bariers are intrinsically evil. How familiar are you with the Catechism? If I do some research on this will you actually read it or am I wasting my time?

 

[Debora123]

Practicing NFP allows me to fully embrace my humanity and my wife’s. It is a truly “organic” experience.

Hahaha, love the choice of wording!