From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Odell
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Muze said:
How odd for the Church to elevate natural law over the text of Scripture.
Click to expand...
I won’t pretend to be really smart or anything. But there is something obvious here that stands out where you allude to Sola Scriptura.

Which books of the New Testament did the Church Fathers and early Christians read and adhere to from the year 33 A.D. to about 110 A.D., prior to the books being written or complied into what we know as the Scriptures?

Hmm…kinda sheds a light on the letter to Timothy where he is instructed not only to hold fast to the traditions, but to shun any who reject them.
 
Blacksword said:
YWhy not worry about your own soul, and not spend so much time declaring to others how “objectively” selfish and perverse their marriage is?
Click to expand...
I am speaking of the act objectively. It is what it is. I have not leveled any personal declarations…

I am concerned with my own soul. As I am with others. Charity and truth go together. To withhold the truth in this case would be contrary to charity.

Also I am not the one who brought up that they are happy with their use of contraception…I am not the one who brought up the subject at all…

and gee this is a discussion forum last time looked…
 
Bookcat said:
Such is not the case…it can be…but need not. The Contraception renders the act selfish and non-marital. (thus it is also an act of lust objectively)
Click to expand...
Sigh, so you say, trouble is, I’ve read the arguments, and they don’t make sense. They don’t hold water in this single area of church teachings.
 
Debora123 said:
I do not “claim unity.” I already explained to you that I AM still Catholic, regardless of what I claim and don’t claim.
Click to expand...
Yes she is still a Catholic. That seal is set indelibly on her soul.

She is correct here (as I imagine you will agree)
 
Blacksword said:
The fact that you and other ultra-conservative Catholics on an Internet site SAY something is a grave sin does NOT mean others now know it to be so.
Click to expand...
Right, but she has already stated that she knows the Church teaches this to be a grave sin. She says she had read all the teachings on it…so she knows it is grave matter because the Church calls it “gravely disordered” in Church teaching (CCC). It is also called “grave sin” in the “examination of conscience” (though I won’t presume whether she has read one of those). I didn’t have to inform her, she already knows, she just doesn’t agree. But not agreeing does not remove the graveness of a sin or make it not sinful.

I wouldn’t call myself “ultra-conservative”. I’m just a Catholic, and I submit to the Authority of the Church.
 
Bookcat said:
Yes she is still a Catholic. That seal is set indelibly on her soul.

She is correct here (as I imagine you will agree)
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree. Poor wording on my part above.

Sorry about that, Debora123. 😊
 
ahs said:
I won’t pretend to be really smart or anything. But there is something obvious here that stands out where you allude to Sola Scriptura.

Which books of the New Testament did the Church Fathers and early Christians read and adhere to from the year 33 A.D. to about 110 A.D., prior to the books being written or complied into what we know as the Scriptures?

Hmm…kinda sheds a light on the letter to Timothy where he is instructed not only to hold fast to the traditions, but to shun any who reject them.
Click to expand...
Yeah, especially a Church that doesn’t require women to wear a veil when praying in Church and doesn’t require them to keep silent… if you can’t be bothered to keep the traditions written in Scripture, why would I believe you about what you claim the oral ones are?
 
I don’t believe that we should really focus on personal experience in debates like this. In my experience theft feels much better to me than honest, hard work. Just sayin 🤷
 
Blacksword said:
Sigh, so you say, trouble is, I’ve read the arguments, and they don’t make sense. They don’t hold water in this single area of church teachings.
Click to expand...
My saying or not saying does not change the reality.

That is the nature of objective.

I can say the earth is flat but if the earth is round does my saying otherwise make it so? No

and if the earth is flat and I say it is round…does my saying it is round make it round?

No.
as to getting it…

Often times there is much truth that does not make sense to us personally. My Dad designed instruments for various vehicles of the space program…for the measurement of radiation. The Shuttle …and perhaps Apollo? or was it Gemenni?–anyhow there there is much that I do not understand…but I trust my Dad. Because of his expertise… and of course his being my Dad helps.

In regards to understanding theological matters. Sometimes we may not personally get it…but we trust those who do study such do get it…and we trust that the Church Teaches with authority given her by Christ. We trust the Teachings of the Church…because of Christ. Sometimes it is “Faith seeking understanding” and later we may indeed understand. Or sometimes we may never quite understand…
 
Debora123 said:
So are you saying that Church doctrine DOES interpret the story of Onan to be about contraception?
Click to expand...
I’m saying it is not up to me or you to decide. The Church has that responsibility. If we look at the teaching of the Church where that verse is used, it tells us that the Church see the act of Onan as being a deliberate frustrating of the natural power and purpose of begetting children. So, yes, Onan was disobedient, but he also deliberately frustrated the act.

"*54. But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it **deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.
  1. Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death. As St. Augustine notes, “Intercourse even with one’s legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of the offspring is prevented. Onan, the son of Juda, did this and the Lord killed him for it.”*45] " (Casti Conubii, 54-55)
 
And to relate this to NFP, even in this same encyclical, the Pope makes a clear distinction between contraception and continence…which I believe we’ve covered before in another thread:

53. And now, Venerable Brethren, we shall explain in detail the evils opposed to each of the benefits of matrimony. First consideration is due to the offspring, which many have the boldness to call the disagreeable burden of matrimony and which they say is to be carefully avoided by married people not through virtuous continence (which Christian law permits in matrimony when both parties consent) but by frustrating the marriage act…(Casti Conubii, 53)

This immediately prior to the condemnation of onanism. First, there is a clear distinction between continence (abstaining from sex, which is practiced in NFP) and frustrating the act. Then, a condemnation of frustrating the act.
 
Debora123 said:
This is not true. One can still be a Catholic even while disagreeing about one thing.

I disagree that barrier contraceptives are intrinsically evil.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, in the end it won’t really matter what you think but only what God thinks.
 
Debora123 said:
Thanks Bookcat.
Click to expand...
Your welcome…

Hum…I suppose I ought to add that of course if someone is acting contrary to the Churches Teaching on Contraception they are acting in a way contrary to how they are to act as a Catholic…to say the least …
 
KostyaJMJ said:
I don’t believe that we should really focus on personal experience in debates like this. ** In my experience theft feels much better to me than honest, hard work.** Just sayin 🤷
Click to expand...
Wow, really?? That’s weird, I’m sorry to hear that. :confused:
 
Now of course the comment can come where someone says “contraception is good for my marriage”. My experience of it is good.

Not to get into the all the details that it is not good…(one can read all sorts of books etc on the subject)…instead lets look at the general idea of something being good that in fact is an objectively grave evil. Where a person may think their “experience” justifies such an action.

Lets use a different moral issue (though still a grave matter like Contraception) Sometimes this helps …and though they are fictional…and hopefully more far fetched then real (though given our world it is possible) …I hope they will help.

Leo and Sally are married…they are engaged in adultery with others…and are very unhappy. They have a conversion …and repent of their deeds and set out to follow Christ faithfully and to be faithful to each other. The find this really also helps their marriage. And they find that they have new life in him here…and look forward to being with him…happy they are not longer living in a way that would send them to hell but are following he who is life. Many like couples experience the same and objectively they are doing good.

Sam and Sue are married. Their marriage is troubled. They are always fighting about Sam’s unhappiness about Sue not want sexual relations so often. They are terribly unhappy. Sam prays about it…and decides that God will understand if he finds a companion on the side for the sake of his family…heck men have done so in all ages. Sam decides to have an affair on the side. The fighting practically goes away entirely…the affair continues for years and years…and they report their marriage is now happy. Sam in a discussion with a friend with similar problems…suggests he get a girl on the side…for this has saved their marriage and they are now happy…and when he later meets with his friend…he finds his friend has had the same experience…so he is confirmed in his feeling…I had to save my family…it was good for my marriage…

So it can be said that some find that adultery is helpful to their marital happiness…

Does that make it “good”?

No.

Can there be spiritual consequences to such…yes …of the most grave kind.

The ends do not justify the means.

Adultery and other gravely evil proposals are well… evil …they are contrary to God…and even if someone experiences some “temporal” happiness …even if they think “this will help my marriage”…or “this is good for such and such”…“I need to do such and such otherwise such and such will happen”…

It is the age old thing that the Bible talks about…the choosing of some temporal or “apparent” happiness…over God and true happiness…true life.

Now is it possible that they have a really erroneious conscience that God will take into account?..it is possible…is it possible for some other things to reduce the culpability?..yes it is…but I would not count on either…for often we can be at least guilty along the way in getting there… (read Pope Benedict XVI in Spe Salvi!) and these are very dangerous waters…to say the least…and we have a duty to correct a conscience in error…

Many though perhaps listen to their feelings or even rationalize things away…and think in terms of the temporal good…“this helps my marriage” …“I need to do what the Church thinks is wrong but it is the Church that is wrong” (misunderstanding the nature of the Church and her authority etc)…or “If I do not do X …Y will happen and Y will be bad for me or for my family”…etc…

Such is not the way to go…we are to find another way…the right way.

A “temporal benefit” …a “temporal happiness”…is not necessarily a true happiness and certainly not the final happiness we are called to. A temporal happiness is not worth the exchange.

Jesus is very clear though: what does it profit for a man to gain the whole world…and loose his soul…? ( see Mark 8:36)
 
Debora123 said:
FORTUNATELY, it won’t matter what you or anyone else here thinks, but what God thinks. 👍
Click to expand...
Yeah, but we already know what God thinks. (Check out section 4, Interpreting Moral Law)
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

There is also a whole section devoted to what Bookcat is describing in the above scenario. It says, nearly word for word, that we can’t engage in a sinful act even if it brings us happiness to our marriage. (Section 14, Unlawful Birth Control Methods)
 
ahs said:
Yeah, but we already know what God thinks. (Check out section 4, Interpreting Moral Law)
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

There is also a whole section devoted to what Bookcat is describing in the above scenario. It says, nearly word for word, that we can’t engage in a sinful act even if it brings us happiness to our marriage. (Section 14, Unlawful Birth Control Methods)
Click to expand...
The thing is some of us don’t believe this came directly from God, but from human error. So yeah, I really don’t think God feels that way about it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top