From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

[Bookcat]

Gee… Paul calls the Corinthains “spiritually immature” in Chapter 3 (vv1-3).

Exactly!

They need to follow what they have been taught by Paul and the other Apostles and those who teach what they teach…not make up their own thing.

The are to live according the Faith they have received…not make up their own morality etc…

 

[Nate13]

Exactly!

They need to follow what they have been taught by Paul and the other Apostles and those who teach what they teach…not make up their own thing.

The are to live according the Faith they have received…not make up their own morality etc…

Exactly, this is what I don’t understand about Protestants. Paul didn’t send letters to the Corinthians and go “Here is what I think Jesus meant…” or “You guys should think about this…”. He said this is the truth. Believe it or face death on the last day.

 

[Blacksword]

Haha you referred to my explanation as “pagan” and then ignored it. I’m not asking you to believe what I say only to realize that it IS a logical argument. When marriage/sex/love is viewed from the perspective I laid out, you see the difference between contraception and NFP. Obviously you don’t like the imagery, and don’t like God spying on what you do in the bedroom or at least that is what I got from it. All I’m saying is that you should concede that there is a difference between contraception and NFP when it is viewed this way. The imagery I laid out isn’t something I came up with. JPII has referred to the marriage bed as an altar and gone in to more explanation. You can disagree with the premise but you can’t disagree the conclusion based on that premise. Also in terms of relatives having great relationships. Ends don’t justify the means.

Sigh, no, I don’t see the “difference” between NFP and other forms of BC when viewed from this perspective. That’s the whole problem. The argument you’re making is not a valid form of logic. Your reasoning assumes the consequent. It’s a fallacious argument. You’ve assumed an inherent evil in BC in order to establish an inherent evil in BC.

 

[ahs]

When marriage/sex/love is viewed from the perspective I laid out, you see the difference between contraception and NFP. Obviously you don’t like the imagery, and don’t like God spying on what you do in the bedroom or at least that is what I got from it. All I’m saying is that you should concede that there is a difference between contraception and NFP when it is viewed this way. The imagery I laid out isn’t something I came up with. JPII has referred to the marriage bed as an altar and gone in to more explanation…

And vice versa. The Church has described and viewed the Altar as a Marriage Bed. In fact, many of the Altars in older Churches will have 4 posts or columns, symbolizing the Marriage Bed of the Bridegroom (Christ) to His Bride (the Church). When you can start looking past the only the physical nature of the marital act and start to see the spiritual nature, this makes perfect sense.

The Church is the Bride of Christ

***796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. the theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist.234 The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom."235 The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride “betrothed” to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him.236 The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb.237 "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her."238 He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body:239

This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many . . . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks. He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean? "The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the Church."240 and the Lord himself says in the Gospel: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."241 They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the bridegroom, as body, he calls himself "bride."242*** (CCC)

Blacksword, may I recommend that you put more trust in the Church Fathers and the Popes as to what their explanations are? Christ did give His Church the Authority and Power to define the teachings for us for a reason. He knew that there would be potentially as many opinions as there are Christians…and therefore gave His Church the Authority to tell us what is right and what is wrong. If you are going to decide for yourself what is right or wrong despite the Church, what’s the point of claiming unity with the Church?

 

[Nate13]

Sigh, no, I don’t see the “difference” between NFP and other forms of BC when viewed from this perspective. That’s the whole problem. The argument you’re making is not a valid form of logic. Your reasoning assumes the consequent. It’s a fallacious argument. You’ve assumed an inherent evil in BC in order to establish an inherent evil in BC.

My argument is that contraception prevents the true total gift of self between two people. You are withholding your fertility whatever state it is in during the act. A broad case has been laid out in this thread and in other threads as to why using contraception is wrong. The opposing argument is usually well if contraception is wrong then NFP is wrong. I’m merely trying to show that is not the case, because the reasons that we believe contraception are wrong don’t apply to NFP. Some people can’t see through the fog and just look at the ends of each and say its the same. My point is that if your going to get on the altar, only do so if you are ready to give yourself completely.

Edit: btw thanks ahs for filling in some of the gaps in my explanation

 

[lovemysix]

My point is not to argue with anybody. If you have read both of my posts, you will see quite clearly that I am not arguing that I think the Church should change her teaching or that she is wrong. I agree that “legalizing” (for lack of a better word) ABC opens a whole pandora’s box.

Having lived around conservative Catholics all my life, most of our friends and family practice NFP. 20 years later, the bright promises of it are but a faded memory for most, and they are just hanging in because they don’t want to burn in hell. Many marriages are in shambles and large families living in chaos. We all look really, really good in church on Sunday morning, and nobody who is not in the inner circle is privy to what is really going on in these families. I only know because I have lived here all my life. These couples would tell outsiders, with only the best of intentions, how wonderful NFP is because they have a very strong desire not to scandalize anybody with the truth; they would feel horrible if their portrayal of what is really going on in their lives played a part in the decision of another person to use ABC. The thing is, this deception for the sake of not scandalizing infantilizes fellow Catholics. Authenticity is lacking, and the masses sense that. Until this reality is acknowledged, I don’t think any real progress will be made on reducing that 90% statistic. Sometimes I wonder if anybody really cares about the 90% at all or if they just want to hear themselves pontificate on Church teaching. I say this not because of a particular comment I have seen here in this thread, but because of comments and attitudes I have observed over the course of my 40+ years living among this particular subset of Catholics. The same applies to the comment I made about attitudes that treat people who use ABC as “nymphomaniacs” incapable of true marriage. This kind of messaging is not resonating with the masses, as clearly reflected in the 90% statistic.

So people can lament all they want about needing to change NFP marketing, but perhaps it is worth at least asking the question if there isn’t something more going on here, that perhaps NFP practiced over 20-30 years really can be harmful for some marriages and have long-term consequences on the children of such marriages, and that perhaps the Church was really on to something when NFP was considering something that should only be used in very serious circumstances accordingly. The problem, as I stated earlier, is that everybody wants an intimate relationship with their spouse and very, very few can handle the consequences of having a baby every year or two over the course of one’s childbearing years (or at least handle it well). NFP is the Church’s solution to that “problem”, but it’s not perfect, either. Nothing in this world is perfect and never will be; that’s the nature of life since the Fall. It’s a hard teaching, but sugar-coating it with portraying NFP as the best thing since the invention of the wheel clearly hasn’t been working.

That is all I am saying. And killing the messenger doesn’t get anybody anywhere.

But again, I realized after my original post that I have indeed showed very poor forum etiquette by posting on this thread at all, and on that note, I am out of here and won’t return to this thread…

Peace.

 

[Blacksword]

My point is not to argue with anybody. If you have read both of my posts, you will see quite clearly that I am not arguing that I think the Church should change her teaching or that she is wrong. I agree that “legalizing” (for lack of a better word) ABC opens a whole pandora’s box.

Having lived around conservative Catholics all my life, most of our friends and family practice NFP. 20 years later, the bright promises of it are but a faded memory for most, and they are just hanging in because they don’t want to burn in hell. Many marriages are in shambles and large families living in chaos. We all look really, really good in church on Sunday morning, and nobody who is not in the inner circle is privy to what is really going on in these families. I only know because I have lived here all my life. These couples would tell outsiders, with only the best of intentions, how wonderful NFP is because they have a very strong desire not to scandalize anybody with the truth; they would feel horrible if their portrayal of what is really going on in their lives played a part in the decision of another person to use ABC. The thing is, this deception for the sake of not scandalizing infantilizes fellow Catholics. Authenticity is lacking, and the masses sense that. Until this reality is acknowledged, I don’t think any real progress will be made on reducing that 90% statistic. Sometimes I wonder if anybody really cares about the 90% at all or if they just want to hear themselves pontificate on Church teaching. I say this not because of a particular comment I have seen here in this thread, but because of comments and attitudes I have observed over the course of my 40+ years living among this particular subset of Catholics. The same applies to the comment I made about attitudes that treat people who use ABC as “nymphomaniacs” incapable of true marriage. This kind of messaging is not resonating with the masses, as clearly reflected in the 90% statistic.

So people can lament all they want about needing to change NFP marketing, but perhaps it is worth at least asking the question if there isn’t something more going on here, that perhaps NFP practiced over 20-30 years really can be harmful for some marriages and have long-term consequences on the children of such marriages, and that perhaps the Church was really on to something when NFP was considering something that should only be used in very serious circumstances accordingly. The problem, as I stated earlier, is that everybody wants an intimate relationship with their spouse and very, very few can handle the consequences of having a baby every year or two over the course of one’s childbearing years (or at least handle it well). NFP is the Church’s solution to that “problem”, but it’s not perfect, either. Nothing in this world is perfect and never will be; that’s the nature of life since the Fall. It’s a hard teaching, but sugar-coating it with portraying NFP as the best thing since the invention of the wheel clearly hasn’t been working.

That is all I am saying. And killing the messenger doesn’t get anybody anywhere.

But again, I realized after my original post that I have indeed showed very poor forum etiquette by posting on this thread at all, and on that note, I am out of here and won’t return to this thread…

Peace.

Bingo, a GREAT post. Thank you again for your REAL LIFE experience, something all to frequently absent from these discussions. :clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[TasteAndSee]

My point is not to argue with anybody. If you have read both of my posts, you will see quite clearly that I am not arguing that I think the Church should change her teaching or that she is wrong. I agree that “legalizing” (for lack of a better word) ABC opens a whole pandora’s box.

Having lived around conservative Catholics all my life, most of our friends and family practice NFP. 20 years later, the bright promises of it are but a faded memory for most, and they are just hanging in because they don’t want to burn in hell. Many marriages are in shambles and large families living in chaos. We all look really, really good in church on Sunday morning, and nobody who is not in the inner circle is privy to what is really going on in these families. I only know because I have lived here all my life. These couples would tell outsiders, with only the best of intentions, how wonderful NFP is because they have a very strong desire not to scandalize anybody with the truth; they would feel horrible if their portrayal of what is really going on in their lives played a part in the decision of another person to use ABC. The thing is, this deception for the sake of not scandalizing infantilizes fellow Catholics. Authenticity is lacking, and the masses sense that. Until this reality is acknowledged, I don’t think any real progress will be made on reducing that 90% statistic. Sometimes I wonder if anybody really cares about the 90% at all or if they just want to hear themselves pontificate on Church teaching. I say this not because of a particular comment I have seen here in this thread, but because of comments and attitudes I have observed over the course of my 40+ years living among this particular subset of Catholics. The same applies to the comment I made about attitudes that treat people who use ABC as “nymphomaniacs” incapable of true marriage. This kind of messaging is not resonating with the masses, as clearly reflected in the 90% statistic.

So people can lament all they want about needing to change NFP marketing, but perhaps it is worth at least asking the question if there isn’t something more going on here, that perhaps NFP practiced over 20-30 years really can be harmful for some marriages and have long-term consequences on the children of such marriages, and that perhaps the Church was really on to something when NFP was considering something that should only be used in very serious circumstances accordingly. The problem, as I stated earlier, is that everybody wants an intimate relationship with their spouse and very, very few can handle the consequences of having a baby every year or two over the course of one’s childbearing years (or at least handle it well). NFP is the Church’s solution to that “problem”, but it’s not perfect, either. Nothing in this world is perfect and never will be; that’s the nature of life since the Fall. It’s a hard teaching, but sugar-coating it with portraying NFP as the best thing since the invention of the wheel clearly hasn’t been working.

That is all I am saying. And killing the messenger doesn’t get anybody anywhere.

But again, I realized after my original post that I have indeed showed very poor forum etiquette by posting on this thread at all, and on that note, I am out of here and won’t return to this thread…

Peace.

This whole post is just sad and depressing to me, especially as someone who has found great reward from using NFP.
Honestly though, I only personally know three other couples who use NFP. All three of those families are quite happy and close. The description of the people who are singing the praises of NFP when behind closed doors they are struggling and having a horrid time, just doesn’t resonate with me. If this is a reality for you, then I am very, very sad for you and the people you describe and will certainly keep all of you in my prayers.
I think the reason most Catholics contracept is multifaceted - some thought and assumed Vatican II would announce that it’s OK, so they feel justified (even some priests fall into this category. Fortunately, younger generations of priests are bucking his trend and tend to follow the church 100%), some Catholics select what they want to believe a la carte (I used to be one of these and it feels great to finally be in full communion), others are scared of the challenge NFP presents, others might be influenced by the prevalence of the contraceptive culture (who HASN’T been offered contraceptives at the doctor’s office?), others just honestly think they know better than the pope, bishops and priests…who knows what all the reasons are? The question is, is any reason worth the risk of your eternal soul? Not to me.

 

[Nate13]

This whole post is just sad and depressing to me, especially as someone who has found great reward from using NFP.
Honestly though, I only personally know three other couples who use NFP. All three of those families are quite happy and close. The description of the people who are singing the praises of NFP when behind closed doors they are struggling and having a horrid time, just doesn’t resonate with me. If this is a reality for you, then I am very, very sad for you and the people you describe and will certainly keep all of you in my prayers.
I think the reason most Catholics contracept is multifaceted - some thought and assumed Vatican II would announce that it’s OK, so they feel justified (even some priests fall into this category. Fortunately, younger generations of priests are bucking his trend and tend to follow the church 100%), some Catholics select what they want to believe a la carte (I used to be one of these and it feels great to finally be in full communion), others are scared of the challenge NFP presents, others might be influenced by the prevalence of the contraceptive culture (who HASN’T been offered contraceptives at the doctor’s office?), others just honestly think they know better than the pope, bishops and priests…who knows what all the reasons are? The question is, is any reason worth the risk of your eternal soul? Not to me.

It basically comes down to the teaching is too hard to actually follow. It demands a lot of sacrifice and no one jumps on board unless they are completely convinced.

 

[Bookcat]

“The Church, which has her origin in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, (39) is a mystery of communion. In accordance with the will of her founder, she is organized around a hierarchy established for the service of the Gospel and the People of God who live by it. After the pattern of the members of the first community, all the baptized with their own proper charisms are to strive with sincere hearts for a harmonious unity in doctrine, life, and worship (cf. Acts 2:42). This is a rule which flows from the very being of the Church. For this reason, standards of conduct, appropriate to civil society or the workings of a democracy, cannot be purely and simply applied to the Church. Even less can relationships within the Church be inspired by the mentality of the world around it (ct. Rom 12:2).** Polling public opinion to determine the proper thing** to think or do, opposing the Magisterium by exerting the pressure of public opinion, making the excuse of a “consensus” among theologians, maintaining that the theologian is the prophetical spokesman of a “base” or autonomous community which would be the source of all truth, all this indicates a grave loss of the sense of truth and of the sense of the Church.”

CDF document Donum Veritatis -Signed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

 

[davidv]

This whole post is just sad and depressing to me, especially as someone who has found great reward from using NFP.
Honestly though, I only personally know three other couples who use NFP. All three of those families are quite happy and close. The description of the people who are singing the praises of NFP when behind closed doors they are struggling and having a horrid time, just doesn’t resonate with me. If this is a reality for you, then I am very, very sad for you and the people you describe and will certainly keep all of you in my prayers.
I think the reason most Catholics contracept is multifaceted - some thought and assumed Vatican II would announce that it’s OK, so they feel justified (even some priests fall into this category. Fortunately, younger generations of priests are bucking his trend and tend to follow the church 100%), some Catholics select what they want to believe a la carte (I used to be one of these and it feels great to finally be in full communion), others are scared of the challenge NFP presents, others might be influenced by the prevalence of the contraceptive culture (who HASN’T been offered contraceptives at the doctor’s office?), others just honestly think they know better than the pope, bishops and priests…who knows what all the reasons are? The question is, is any reason worth the risk of your eternal soul? Not to me.

Sad indeed. Such are the fruits of slavery to the dictatorship of relativism. Feelings and experiences are substituted for truth.

 

[Blacksword]

My argument is that contraception prevents the true total gift of self between two people. You are withholding your fertility whatever state it is in during the act. A broad case has been laid out in this thread and in other threads as to why using contraception is wrong. The opposing argument is usually well if contraception is wrong then NFP is wrong. I’m merely trying to show that is not the case, because the reasons that we believe contraception are wrong don’t apply to NFP. Some people can’t see through the fog and just look at the ends of each and say its the same. My point is that if your going to get on the altar, only do so if you are ready to give yourself completely.

Edit: btw thanks ahs for filling in some of the gaps in my explanation

Now it’s the distinction without a difference logical fallacy. By every measure of objective reality, you are not necessarily withholding your “fertility” at all. You are attempting to prevent your fertility from resulting in fecundity in the particular sex act in which the Rule is not followed or you use a form of BC, but that does not mean that fertility itself is withheld in every form of BC other than the rhythm method. It is not consequentialist to point out that millions of people alive today were conceived from intercourse in which withdrawal, condoms, the pill, spermicide creams, or any number of other forms of BC were employed. It is REALITY-based to point this out. This means “fertility” is of necessity still part of the act. Your argument only appears to work when it’s divorced from actual biological reality and kept on the most esoteric and artificial plane possible. If NFP works for you, that’s wonderful, but to keep going over this ground is not fruitful, I’m not persuaded, and not likely to be by anything you have to say. If it is God’s truth, I’m sure in his time He and his Church will fully reveal it to lowly me. Thank you.

 

[davidv]

Now it’s the distinction without a difference logical fallacy. By every measure of objective reality, you are not necessarily withholding your “fertility” at all. You are attempting to prevent your fertility from resulting in fecundity in the particular sex act in which the Rule is not followed or you use a form of BC, but that does not mean that fertility itself is withheld in every form of BC other than the rhythm method. It is not consequentialist to point out that millions of people alive today were conceived from intercourse in which withdrawal, condoms, the pill, spermicide creams, or any number of other forms of BC were employed. It is REALITY-based to point this out. This means “fertility” is of necessity still part of the act. Your argument only appears to work when it’s divorced from actual biological reality and kept on the most esoteric and artificial plane possible. If NFP works for you, that’s wonderful, but to keep going over this ground is not fruitful, I’m not persuaded, and not likely to be by anything you have to say. If it is God’s truth, I’m sure in his time He and his Church will fully reveal it to lowly me. Thank you.

God gave you free will. You are currently using it to reject the teaching of the Church, the Bride of Christ. Be warned that this is dangerous territory. Jesus, speaking to the leaders of the Church, said:

“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:16 RSV

 

[TasteAndSee]

Blacksword,
You just referred to NFP as “the Rhythm Method,” which demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge of what NFP actually is. The Rhythm Method and NFP are completely different things. COMPLETELY different. Before you continue your insistence that NFP and contraception are basically the same thing, I recommend you actually learn what NFP is. NO ONE who knows what it is would ever call it the Rhythm Method. No one.

 

[helplesspilgrim]

From my experience NFP has been awful, it is the only source of struggle in an otherwise amazingly perfect marriage. It is a source of sadness, depression, bondage, and cause of physical distancing(not by choice, but out of fear). We have never in almost 2 years been able to accurately read the signs, the church abandonded our pleas for help, the NFP instructors gave up when it was difficult to read, there is no underlying medical condition affecting signs, the nfp insitutes told us to just get pregnant, as did the church, both knowin full well that meds my wife has to take, for life, would kill or deform a fetus. I am not catholic but my wife is, we follow it because thats what the church says to do, and i support her faith; but it has turned this young couple who waited, and saved themselves for each other for 30 years, into celibates. It is a source of profound sadness.

 

[Bookcat]

You know…really…we all really need to sit on our hands and stop going off topic.

The person who created this thread asked what question?

“From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?”

Only answers that* fit that question* are in keeping really with the rules of the forum.

So all of the posters who are seeking to rail against NFP or complain about it or disagree with the Teachings of the Church on contraception…your posts here …unless they are about “why does NFP feel better than contraception” …are not according to topic.

He did not ask “how is your experience…or what do you think about either of these”…or for pro’s and cons…but very precisely:

“From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?”

**See Forum rules: “Messages posted to threads should be on-topic.” and please cease posting off topic.
**
Let those who want to actually answer the person answer…I can imagine there are those who feel put off by all that has been posted thus far…and so do not feel like doing so.

 

[Blacksword]

Blacksword,
You just referred to NFP as “the Rhythm Method,” which demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge of what NFP actually is. The Rhythm Method and NFP are completely different things. COMPLETELY different. Before you continue your insistence that NFP and contraception are basically the same thing, I recommend you actually learn what NFP is. NO ONE who knows what it is would ever call it the Rhythm Method. No one.

Dude, i know what it is, lol! It IS a rhythm method, various types being more sophisticated than other, measuring mucous output, or basal body temps, or other biological signs to try to tell when a woman is ovulating. Sorry if you don’t like the term “rhythm method” for some reason, but that’s essentially what it is. 26 pages in are we going to really debate such irrelevant things as what name it goes by? Ask an obgyn what it is, they’ll say “a type of rhythm method” more likely than not.

 

[Blacksword]

From my experience NFP has been awful, it is the only source of struggle in an otherwise amazingly perfect marriage. It is a source of sadness, depression, bondage, and cause of physical distancing(not by choice, but out of fear). We have never in almost 2 years been able to accurately read the signs, the church abandonded our pleas for help, the NFP instructors gave up when it was difficult to read, there is no underlying medical condition affecting signs, the nfp insitutes told us to just get pregnant, as did the church, both knowin full well that meds my wife has to take, for life, would kill or deform a fetus. I am not catholic but my wife is, we follow it because thats what the church says to do, and i support her faith; but it has turned this young couple who waited, and saved themselves for each other for 30 years, into celibates. It is a source of profound sadness.

I’ve thought about what to say to you, and run through some rather snarky possibilities, but I will refrain from making any kind of sarcastic comment about the incompatibility with the extreme view of contraceptives taken by some posters with real-life realities such as yours. I am SO sorry for you and your wife. I am truly sorry for the grief you live with over this. I will pray for you both.

I also would recommend if you’ve really received such a callous response from your current parish that you find another parish where you will be at least met with love and empathy in your pain. I pray for your peace and that you will find joy in your marriage, regardless of the ultimate decision you make as a couple. Truly sorry for you and your wife.

 

[sacredcello]

From my experience NFP has been awful, it is the only source of struggle in an otherwise amazingly perfect marriage. It is a source of sadness, depression, bondage, and cause of physical distancing(not by choice, but out of fear). We have never in almost 2 years been able to accurately read the signs, the church abandonded our pleas for help, the NFP instructors gave up when it was difficult to read, there is no underlying medical condition affecting signs, the nfp insitutes told us to just get pregnant, as did the church, both knowin full well that meds my wife has to take, for life, would kill or deform a fetus. I am not catholic but my wife is, we follow it because thats what the church says to do, and i support her faith; but it has turned this young couple who waited, and saved themselves for each other for 30 years, into celibates. It is a source of profound sadness.

May I ask which method you are using? We are instructors for Couple to Couple League which teaches the sympto-thermal method, and I would be happy to look at your wife’s chart. It may be that the medication that your wife is taking is causing one or more of the signs to be difficult to read. But, there is still hope. May I recommend a book by Marilyn Shannon called Fertility, Cycles and Nutrition which has helped many many women to read their fertility more accurately by taking some of steps outlined in her book.

Prayers for you and your wife.

 

[helplesspilgrim]

I appreciate the lack of snark. I got for than my share of that in pre-cana where as the non-catholic party i was treated like absolute trash, told to shut up for asking questions, and laughed and scorned at for again asking questions of the priest and pre-cana instructors. They, and others at that and additional parishes, irrevocably damaged my walk through the christian faith when i was desperately seeking answers. So thank you so much.

I have great joy in my marriage, i married my best friend. But this is a terribly heavy cross to bear, and unlike christ who had someone help him with the cross, i feel more weight being thrown on our cross, and i fear i’ll never get up under tbe weight of such a cross.

Thank you for your prayers.