From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

[TasteAndSee]

But you have to realize despite trying to make it work for many couples it just doesn;t. **Also the person you are addressing isn;t saying that they the Church should let us use ABC! **and I am willing to bet quite a of her friends would agree too. Just because NFP is/was a cross in someones marriage doesn;t automatically mean they want to be able to use ABCs. Of course there are those that do but I am sure for many of these people it wasn;t an easy decision. I do think your reasons probably do cover some of the reasons some Catholics contracept especially perhaps those who never heard of NFP or didn;t try it in the first place. But then there are those who did NFP did their best to make it work and found their marriage being torn apart by it. And the thing is many probably begin to question the teaching and specifically the logic behind it which from what I have seen in these threads is a big stumbling point for many people.
So when it comes down to just following the teaching simply because your scared of going to hell on the off chance maybe the Church is right well thats not really a good reason to follow a teaching! and causes even more stress in a stressful situation. I imagine it is easier for people to follow a teaching when they can understand and agree with the logic/reasoning behind it.

I never said she used ABC or that she said the church should condone it’s use. My comment about why Catholics contracept was based on her statistic that 90 percent of Catholics do so.

Being torn apart by NFP is a sad, sad reality to me. I just can’t imagine it.

I follow all of the church’s teachings because she is my guide on this earth, instituted by Christ himself, and for me, it is not worth the risk of losing my eternal soul to go against her. Besides, the Church’s logic for why NFP is the right way to go makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Bookcat]

was based on her statistic that 90 percent of Catholics do so.

(aside from the realty that polls…are well…just polls. This depend on who are asked…how they are asked etc…as they say statistics lie…(God though does not).)

Add:

“The Church, which has her origin in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, (39) is a mystery of communion. In accordance with the will of her founder, she is organized around a hierarchy established for the service of the Gospel and the People of God who live by it. After the pattern of the members of the first community, all the baptized with their own proper charisms are to strive with sincere hearts for a harmonious unity in doctrine, life, and worship (cf. Acts 2:42). This is a rule which flows from the very being of the Church. For this reason, standards of conduct, appropriate to civil society or the workings of a democracy, cannot be purely and simply applied to the Church. Even less can relationships within the Church be inspired by the mentality of the world around it (ct. Rom 12:2). Polling public opinion to determine the proper thing to think or do, opposing the Magisterium by exerting the pressure of public opinion, making the excuse of a “consensus” among theologians, maintaining that the theologian is the prophetical spokesman of a “base” or autonomous community which would be the source of all truth, all this indicates a grave loss of the sense of truth and of the sense of the Church.”

CDF document Donum Veritatis -Signed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

Let us pray and work …

A good article by Archbishop blog.archny.org/?p=1473

 

[Bookcat]

As Paul tells us in Romans 12…we are to weep with those who weep …so we are to be very loving and understanding of various sufferings and difficulties of others…with great love.

But we also must always remember that if it is not according to the truth it is not charity.

And as Paul also notes in Romans 12 we while we are to let love be genuine we are to hate what is evil and hold fast to what is good…indeed to overcome evil with good.

(overcoming even the difficulties and struggles (a kind of evil)…with good)

And the choice even of an apparent “temporal good” is not to be chosen when it is an evil.

This means too that we are to therefore love persons…in all sorts of situations…even those where they have made objectively gravely evil choices or embrace various ways of acting that are not according to the truth…(such as when they appear to be some solution …though they are not…). Calling them in love to the loving heart of Christ who forgives when we repent etc…turning our wills etc away from sin. Or even if they do not repent…still loving them and praying for them…doing what we can for them as fellow human beings.

But the choices they have made remain disordered. No intention can make them good.

The choice of contraception etc is not any solution in the eyes of God. And the reality of contraception and sterilization as a grave sin etc is a difficult for some reality…but a reality none the less. Despite what a particular persons opinion or desire or feelings may be.

Let us love one another and overcome evil with good.

 

[Calliso]

I never said she used ABC or that she said the church should condone it’s use. My comment about why Catholics contracept was based on her statistic that 90 percent of Catholics do so.

Being torn apart by NFP is a sad, sad reality to me. I just can’t imagine it.

I follow all of the church’s teachings because she is my guide on this earth, instituted by Christ himself, and for me, it is not worth the risk of losing my eternal soul to go against her. Besides, the Church’s logic for why NFP is the right way to go makes perfect sense to me.

shrugs You may not be able to imagine it but it is reality for many. Count yourself lucky that NFP apparently isn;t one of your crosses NFP is though for many. And trying to deny this fact isn;t helping them any/ .

 

[Nate13]

shrugs You may not be able to imagine it but it is reality for many. Count yourself lucky that NFP apparently isn;t one of your crosses NFP is though for many. And trying to deny this fact isn;t helping them any/ .

If NFP is working correctly or near correctly and someone is still having difficulty with it then I would wonder whether they really understand why they are doing it or whether they are just doing it out of acceptance of Church teaching. It’s good that they are following the Church’s teaching regardless but I would urge them to know why and to figure out what in their mindset is impeding them from understanding what God has planned for marriage, sex, and love.

Now if a couple is having problems getting NFP to work I can understand how it would be a heavy cross. I would only hope that couples like these inspires continued research into NFP and medical science in general.

 

[Nate13]

If one party or the other isn’t feeling used and objectified with contraception, they probably don’t understand some part of God’s plan for marriage, sex, and love. You have to know what your missing out on before you can realize how little you really have and desire a better path.

 

[TasteAndSee]

shrugs You may not be able to imagine it but it is reality for many. Count yourself lucky that NFP apparently isn;t one of your crosses NFP is though for many. And trying to deny this fact isn;t helping them any/ .

I never denied that some may struggle.
I merely said that the specific case mentioned on this board, where she and her husband hid their true struggle and ultimately decided a vasectomy was the only solution, is very sad and depressing to me.

 

[ahs]

shrugs You may not be able to imagine it but it is reality for many. Count yourself lucky that NFP apparently isn;t one of your crosses NFP is though for many. And trying to deny this fact isn;t helping them any/ .

I may be missing your point, but I could not help but notice that you are bringing light to the fact that NFP can be a burdensome cross to bear.

Yes it can be. Christ calls us to bear our crosses in this world…to pick up our cross and follow Him. So, having that cross to bear is not such a bad thing…it helps us fulfill our calling as given by Christ.

Also, could that cross be such a burden that it warrants a grave sin? Can NFP, which is permitted when there is a just reason, be so horrible that suddenly a couple is to feel excused for commting a grave sin against the objective criteria for morality? It will never be the case. Grave disorders/sins, as described for us by the Church who has Her teaching Authority from God, are never okay…not even when our lives are burdensome.

It doesn’t help couples if we deny that NFP is hard…but no one here has suggested that it is easy.

What truly does not help those who struggle with NFP, and actually harms them, is to pretend that just because NFP is hard for them that somehow it becomes okay for them to use a poorly-formed conscience to decide that contraception/ABC is okay.

 

[Calliso]

If NFP is working correctly or near correctly and someone is still having difficulty with it then I would wonder whether they really understand why they are doing it or whether they are just doing it out of acceptance of Church teaching. It’s good that they are following the Church’s teaching regardless but I would urge them to know why and to figure out what in their mindset is impeding them from understanding what God has planned for marriage, sex, and love.

Now if a couple is having problems getting NFP to work I can understand how it would be a heavy cross. I would only hope that couples like these inspires continued research into NFP and medical science in general.

The reasons why NFP is hard for people seem to vary. For some it is because it just doesn;t work for them. For others it works very well in terms of preventing pregnancy but serves in other ways to create a barrier between spouses. I think a couple people earlier in this thread mentioned that it has basically made their sex life a chore something not to be looked forward to. And there are probably more as well. I donlt think necessarily though that they all lack understanding of Gods plan for marriage love and sex. It is a complicated issue I think with no easy answers. I mean sure I guess you could argue a more full understanding might help a little but there are those that have studied this issue inside and out and still find it a burden a cross.

 

[Calliso]

I never denied that some may struggle.
I merely said that the specific case mentioned on this board, where she and her husband hid their true struggle and ultimately decided a vasectomy was the only solution, is very sad and depressing to me.

Ok I think I probably misunderstood you then sorry. As for that specific solution ultimately I think the husband did what he thought was best for his family whether it is sinful or not I can not truly not I think not but I am not God.

 

[Calliso]

If one party or the other isn’t feeling used and objectified with contraception, they probably don’t understand some part of God’s plan for marriage, sex, and love. You have to know what your missing out on before you can realize how little you really have and desire a better path.

And what if you do know what you are apparently missing out on? What if you have looked into the issue and still donlt feel used by the use of condoms for instance? And people can feel used by NFP. For instance a woman because she can never make love when she is truly in the mood but still feels like she must be available even if she is reluctant because well its one of the rare chances they get to make love, Men could feel used in similar ways because even not all men want sex all the time. There are those who have used both NFP and ABC methods and feel closer to their spouse using ABC. I realize some here have said they felt used on ABC but I suspect that the problem wasn;t with the ABC itself it was the attitudes of those using it.

 

[ahs]

And what if you do know what you are apparently missing out on? What if you have looked into the issue and still donlt feel used by the use of condoms for instance? And people can feel used by NFP. For instance a woman because she can never make love when she is truly in the mood but still feels like she must be available even if she is reluctant because well its one of the rare chances they get to make love, Men could feel used in similar ways because even not all men want sex all the time. There are those who have used both NFP and ABC methods and feel closer to their spouse using ABC. I realize some here have said they felt used on ABC but I suspect that the problem wasn;t with the ABC itself it was the attitudes of those using it.

It doesn’t matter if a couple does not feel “used” with ABC or if they feel closer while using it, it is morally wrong, gravely disordered to the objective criteria for morality, and removes the unitive and procreative aspects from the act because one spouse or the other (or both) is not giving entirely and freely of him/herself to the other. Feeling good about somethign doesn’t mean it is not sinful. Lots of sins feel good…that’s why they are so hard to resist at times.

If they feel “used” with NFP, this is a good opportunity for the couple to communicate their feelings to each other, to learn to communicate more deeply and deepen their love for one another as they adjust to NFP and learn to work with and through it.

 

[Nate13]

And what if you do know what you are apparently missing out on? What if you have looked into the issue and still donlt feel used by the use of condoms for instance? And people can feel used by NFP. For instance a woman because she can never make love when she is truly in the mood but still feels like she must be available even if she is reluctant because well its one of the rare chances they get to make love, Men could feel used in similar ways because even not all men want sex all the time. There are those who have used both NFP and ABC methods and feel closer to their spouse using ABC. I realize some here have said they felt used on ABC but I suspect that the problem wasn;t with the ABC itself it was the attitudes of those using it.

My point is that contraception inherently makes sex the using of the other person where as NFP can be used for good or for bad, but is not inherently either its neutral. As you said the attitude with which ones uses NFP could be wrong. They may not sin in their actions, but rather sin in their hearts. Accepting contraception means accepting the Utilitarian principle instead of the idea of Personal-ism. If you give yourself to someone only because you expect something in return, your not really giving yourself as a gift. It becomes a mutual exchange at best. When both partners are able to give themselves completely with no thought of themselves they show their love in the same way Christ showed his love for the Church. Only vaginal intercourse allows for both couples to give themselves completely at the same time, with no thought for themselves.

 

[Calliso]

It doesn’t matter if a couple does not feel “used” with ABC or if they feel closer while using it, it is morally wrong, gravely disordered to the objective criteria for morality, and removes the unitive and procreative aspects from the act because one spouse or the other (or both) is not giving entirely and freely of him/herself to the other. Feeling good about somethign doesn’t mean it is not sinful. Lots of sins feel good…that’s why they are so hard to resist at times.

If they feel “used” with NFP, this is a good opportunity for the couple to communicate their feelings to each other, to learn to communicate more deeply and deepen their love for one another as they adjust to NFP and learn to work with and through it.

Oh I agree that feeling good about something isn;t criteria to say what is sin and what is not and that many sins do feel good. I am just pointing out that there isn;t necessarily anything wrong if one does not feel used using ABC and that one can feel used using NFP. Communication can help but unfortunately doesn;t do a whole lot unless you can communicate yourself to a solution. And sometimes it seems the only nonsinful solution is to grin and bear it but that is life I guess.

 

[Calliso]

**My point is that contraception inherently makes sex the using of the other person **where as NFP can be used for good or for bad, but is not inherently either its neutral. As you said the attitude with which ones uses NFP could be wrong. They may not sin in their actions, but rather sin in their hearts. Accepting contraception means accepting the Utilitarian principle instead of the idea of Personal-ism. If you give yourself someone only because you expect something in return, your not really giving yourself as a gift. It becomes a mutual exchange at best. When both partners are able to give themselves completely with no thought of themselves they show their love in the same way Christ showed his love for the Church.

I disagree with this fully I was never used by my husband when I was on the pill I know this for a fact. Now could it have been a sin perhaps I am on the fence about that, but I was never used.

 

[ahs]

…I am just pointing out that there isn;t necessarily anything wrong if one does not feel used using ABC…

But that is my point. Whether a couple feels good about ABC or not, it is still gravely contrary to the sexual act between husband adn wife. It is a sin because it thwarts the act, it removes God from the equation and removes mutual self-giving because the couple is no longer giving…they are witholding. ABC is sinful.

…Communication can help but unfortunately doesn;t do a whole lot unless you can communicate yourself to a solution. And sometimes it seems the only nonsinful solution is to grin and bear it but that is life I guess.

Communication helps when a couple works at communication. It is through the effort put forth the couple realizes its benefits. There need not always be a solution when communicating a problem or a feeling. The act of communicating is a loving expression of the spouses regardless of solutions being found because, when excercised properly by both (letting each other know how we feel and proper listening) the couple learns to Love each other (the action word) and not just feel love (the warm toasty feeling).

As to “the only nonsinful solution is to grin and bear it”…yes that is sometimes the case. As Christ said…bear your cross and follow Him.

 

[Nate13]

I disagree with this fully I was never used by my husband when I was on the pill I know this for a fact. Now could it have been a sin perhaps I am on the fence about that, but I was never used.

What did you see as the purpose of a sexual act in which you were using contraception?

 

[Calliso]

What did you see as the purpose of a sexual act in which you were using contraception?

I saw its purpose as bonding with my husband. Sex for the most part wasn;t even that great for me and I do blame much of that on the pill messing up my bodies hormones! But nothing else had or has for that matter made me feel as close to my husband as sex did. So closeness with my husband was the main thing. Procreate is something we were/are avoiding so procreation had nothing to do with the purpose of our sexual act.

 

[Calliso]

But that is my point. Whether a couple feels good about ABC or not, it is still gravely contrary to the sexual act between husband adn wife. It is a sin because it thwarts the act, it removes God from the equation and removes mutual self-giving because the couple is no longer giving…they are witholding. ABC is sinful.

Communication helps when a couple works at communication. It is through the effort put forth the couple realizes its benefits. There need not always be a solution when communicating a problem or a feeling. The act of communicating is a loving expression of the spouses regardless of solutions being found because, when excercised properly by both (letting each other know how we feel and proper listening) the couple learns to Love each other (the action word) and not just feel love (the warm toasty feeling).

As to “the only nonsinful solution is to grin and bear it”…yes that is sometimes the case. As Christ said…bear your cross and follow Him.

Doesn;t NFP involve withholding as well? I mean you are basically saying no to your wife when they are fertile and only having sex when you are least likely to conceive if you are using NFP to avoid.

 

[Nate13]

I saw its purpose as bonding with my husband. Sex for the most part wasn;t even that great for me and I do blame much of that on the pill messing up my bodies hormones! But nothing else had or has for that matter made me feel as close to my husband as sex did. So closeness with my husband was the main thing. Procreate is something we were/are avoiding so procreation had nothing to do with the purpose of our sexual act.

I always wonder what people mean when they talk about a “bond”. The bond gained with a Utilitarian mentality is “I take care of you, you take care of me” and we are mutually dependent on each other which creates a bond. My point is that this goes against what Christ taught. He taught self-less giving with no though of self. He gave himself completely to us and demanded nothing in return. This is what we have to ask ourselves. Do we love like this and are we being loved like this?