From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

[Bookcat]

Mainly because people can and are still Catholics even if they don’t follow one rule. Heck, even if they don’t follow ANY rule. They are still Catholic.

Yes…even murders can still be Catholics. But if they do not repent of their mortal sin…they are not living as Catholics…they are in grave danger of continuing in the death they have chosen. They are not living as Catholics. Not Living Catholics.

And even if there is some reason that their culpability is lessened to the point where subjectively they have not committed a mortal sin…they are still in very dangerous waters…and what they do is certainly not good for them or good at all (likewise any grave matter).

It is not just a rule like in some club one joins.

What you refer to is not a rule really at all. One will not find such called that in any document of the Church.

It is an intrinsic evil. Even if someone chooses not to accept this reality.

Now…I know next you will say “your comparing murder to contraception?!” …and I reply yes…they are both grave matters…both snuff out the life of God within the soul of the person who does them with full knowledge and deliberate consent. Granted one can be in a way worse than the other …just as being a murderer-rapist is worse than being a murderer…but both are grave matters. Matters of life and death…and that is so beyond the physical sense.

 

[Bookcat]

Mainly because people can and are still Catholics even if they don’t follow one rule. Heck, even if they don’t follow ANY rule. They are still Catholic.

Yes…even murders can still be Catholics. But if they do not repent of their mortal sin…they are not living as Catholics…they are in grave danger of continuing in the death they have chosen. They are not living as Catholics. Not Living Catholics.

And even if there is some reason that their culpability is lessened to the point where subjectively they have not committed a mortal sin…they are still in very dangerous waters…and what they do is certainly not good for them or good at all (likewise any grave matter).

It is not just a rule like in some club one joins.

What you refer to is not a rule really at all.

One will not find such called that in any document of the Church.

It is a grave matter…that if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent…is a mortal sin.

It is an intrinsic evil. Even if someone chooses not to accept this reality.

Now…I know next someone will say "your comparing murder to contraception?! " …and I reply yes…they are both grave matters (oh and some forms kill too)…both snuff out the life of God within the soul of the person who does them with full knowledge and deliberate consent. Granted one can be in a way worse than the other …just as being a murderer-rapist is worse than being a murderer…but both are grave matters. Matters of life and death…and that is so beyond the physical sense.

Now…shall we be charitable and understanding in speaking with someone who is doing something that is objectively gravely sinful? Yes of course. Truth with Charity. *As I have seen I think done in this forum. * And many may have no clue…etc etc. Heck some who have been baptized Catholic simply were not given the actual teachings and life of the Church…but for one reason or another instead took on the thinking of the disordered culture around them. But even with someone who is yelling and throwing stones…the watchword is *“truth with charity and charity with truth” *(and perhaps the occasional ducking as the stones whirl over head).

 

[Brav3N3wWorld]

This is terrible and I don’t envy your situation at all. But unfortunately, it is a reality for many many people. Something the NFP promoters don’t warn you about, and almost lie about. (At least that’s what it feels like - like I was lied to.)

I wish you the best of luck in your journey through this devastating obstacle. and I will pray for you and your marriage.

I felt lied to as well…lied to about the closeness NFP would bring to my marriage. I struggled with bitterness for a long time regarding NFP. You can see some of this in some of my older posts. Then when I came to CAF looking for help, people basically told me that my husband was being selfish and wanting to use me. This made me bitter towards him. NFP was not a happy thing for my marriage at all.

And we did everything “right,” both of us were virgins on our wedding night, were Catholic converts, took the NFP class. We really believed it would work to help us plan our family, and we believed that it would bring us the promised NFP marital bliss. It’s weird how we are now happier celibate.

I have a friend getting married in October, and she’s all starry-eyed over NFP. I explained to her why I didn’t like NFP because she won’t hear that in her marriage-prep classes. Then I wished her good luck. I really hope it works for her. I’m glad that some people find NFP a blissful and wonderful experience, but I’ve noticed a trend that these couples generally tend to be older and are at the end of their child-bearing years. Many have used ABC before and had unpleasant experiences with that. Many want large families. And they all seem financially secure, even if they “sacrifice” eating out. I simply cannot relate.

 

[Brav3N3wWorld]

Wow, your husband sounds identical to mine! Mine has also read HV about 20 times over the years, but still has problems with it. He is a philosophy professor of the analytic sort i.e. lots of Game Theory in his work, etc. The Christopher West book is not good for anyone with a background in philosophy, in my opinion. I wouldn’t recommend it.

Sacredcello,

I really want to know how you have intellectually accepted NFP, since it sounds like you have heard the same arguments that I have. Do you simply take it as a matter of faith (nothing wrong with that at all)? Or do you practice it mostly because it’s healthier than hormonal birth control?

Does your husband agree with the Church teaching? Does he practice it only because that’s what you desire? Or for some other reason? Sorry, if these questions are too personal. I just want to see how another couple with these intellectual struggles have made it work while being faithful to the Church.

I really want to intellectually accept NFP, at least then I wouldn’t feel like I’m sacrificing my sex life for something I don’t really believe.

 

[Bookcat]

As Paul tells us in Romans 12…we need to weep with those who weep …so we need to be very loving and understanding of various sufferings and difficulties of others…with great love.

But we also must always remember that if it is not according to the truth it is not charity.

And as Paul also notes in Romans 12 we while we are to let love be genuine we are to hate what is evil and hold fast to what is good…indeed to overcome evil with good.

(overcoming even the difficulties and struggles (a kind of evil)…with good)

This means too that we are to therefore love persons…in all sorts of situations…even those where they have made objectively gravely evil choices or embrace various ways of acting that are not according to the truth…(such as when they appear to be some solution …though they are not…). Calling them in love to the loving heart of Christ who forgives when we repent etc…turning our wills etc away from sin. Or even if they do not repent…still loving them and praying for them…doing what we can for them as fellow human beings.

But the choices they have made remain disordered. No intention can make them good.

The choice of contraception etc is not any solution in the eyes of God. And the reality of contraception and sterilization as a grave sin etc is a difficult for some reality…but a reality none the less. Despite what a particular persons opinion or desire or feelings may be.

*Let us love one another and overcome evil with good. *

PS: As to those who have who have the needed reasons but have had trouble with NFP note that there are various forms out there. Mileage will vary. The Creightonmodel is very good and takes into account all sorts of things…and is even helpful with health issues etc. popepaulvi.com/

 

[Warrior1979]

Now…I know next someone will say "your comparing murder to contraception?! " …and I reply yes…they are both grave matters (oh and some forms kill too)…both snuff out the life of God within the soul of the person who does them with full knowledge and deliberate consent. Granted one can be in a way worse than the other …just as being a murderer-rapist is worse than being a murderer…but both are grave matters. Matters of life and death…and that is so beyond the physical sense.

I utterly disagree. There is no way that I would place something that popped up in the 1850s that Christ never discussed in the same category as one of the Ten Commandments.

Furthermore, you can’t snuff out a life that didn’t exist. It has never been the Church’s position that life begins prior to conception. That type of thinking means that anyone that doesn’t have daily sex is snuffing out life.

 

[Bookcat]

I utterly disagree. There is no way that I would place something that popped up in the 1850s that Christ never discussed in the same category as one of the Ten Commandments.

Furthermore, you can’t snuff out a life that didn’t exist. It has never been the Church’s position that life begins prior to conception. That type of thinking means that anyone that doesn’t have daily sex is snuffing out life.

1850’s …umm…maybe 1850 BC.

As for snuffing out life …that is about the* life of grace* of the person who commits a mortal sin.

(PS…Christ did not give some exhaustive list of do’s and don’ts…he founded a Church …which of course is not about just teaching about the ‘no’es’ …but about the great YES …the Church about true life)

 

[Warrior1979]

1850’s …umm…maybe 1850 BC.

As for snuffing out life …that is about the* life of grace* of the person who commits a mortal sin.

(PS…Christ did not give some exhaustive list of do’s and don’ts…he founded a Church …which of course is not about just teaching about the ‘no’es’ …but about the great YES …the Church about true life)

Isn’t it interesting that something that existed in 1850 BC that is of the utmost importance, a mortal sin, and something that supposedly will damn one to hell, was never mentioned?

Sorry, but I’m not buying it.

 

[Bookcat]

Isn’t it interesting that something that existed in 1850 BC that is of the utmost importance, a mortal sin, and something that supposedly will damn one to hell, was never mentioned?

Sorry, but I’m not buying it.

Its not for sale.

But lots of thing were not mentioned directly by Christ in the Scriptures…and the New Testament was never meant to be some exhaustive dictionary of morals. The Church was founded by Christ …and given the light and the authority to teach.

In part too it was clearly accepted by Christians that Marriage…well has to do with babies…they were very important and part of the very meaning of marriage. It is sort of like the reality that 100 years ago…it was just understood in general society that there is no such thing as “homosexual marriage”.

That does not mean that those outside the Church did not use such…yes they did all sorts of things…contraception, exposed their babies (murder), committed adultery, homosexual acts etc…which was not accepted by the Church…the early Christians condemned these things as ways of death…they lived very differently than the culture around them.

There are two ways. The way of death and the way of life. And great is the difference between the two.

 

[Warrior1979]

There are two ways. The way of death and the way of life. And great is the difference between the two.

That may be true, but I also believe there is a difference between, say, the Ten Commandents and Christ’s words, and an issue addressed in the 1850s. The wide difference is 18 centuries worth. Putting them on equal footing is one of the reasons many Catholics don’t buy these interpretations.

 

[Debora123]

I felt lied to as well…lied to about the closeness NFP would bring to my marriage. I struggled with bitterness for a long time regarding NFP. You can see some of this in some of my older posts. Then when I came to CAF looking for help, people basically told me that my husband was being selfish and wanting to use me. This made me bitter towards him. NFP was not a happy thing for my marriage at all.

And we did everything “right,” both of us were virgins on our wedding night, were Catholic converts, took the NFP class. We really believed it would work to help us plan our family, and we believed that it would bring us the promised NFP marital bliss. It’s weird how we are now happier celibate.

I have a friend getting married in October, and she’s all starry-eyed over NFP. I explained to her why I didn’t like NFP because she won’t hear that in her marriage-prep classes. Then I wished her good luck. I really hope it works for her. I’m glad that some people find NFP a blissful and wonderful experience, but I’ve noticed a trend that these couples generally tend to be older and are at the end of their child-bearing years. Many have used ABC before and had unpleasant experiences with that. Many want large families. And they all seem financially secure, even if they “sacrifice” eating out. I simply cannot relate.

The same exact thing happened to me, sister. My husband and I did everything right in our lives and in our relationship prior to getting married. Unlike you though, we ended up using condoms during my fertile time - total abstinence (voluntary, that is) just isn’t for us and would never have worked.

I understand NFP can and does work well for a lot of people… and that’s great. More power to them! But for others it can have the opposite effect. Every marriage is different, every situation is different, every person is different. And to say that it is this amazing thing that will make ALL couples happy and closer to each other and have a more satisfying sex life and yadda yadda - is simply false.

I would encourage all married couples to at least try it, but after what it started to do to my marriage, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the couple ultimately decided against it.

 

[Bookcat]

That may be true, but I also believe there is a difference between, say, the Ten Commandents and Christ’s words, and an issue addressed in the 1850s. The wide difference is 18 centuries worth.

Again …it has been around since prob. before 1850 BC…

and has been addressed and rejected by the Church since the early days… this is not a new issue.

My response remains otherwise the same.

 

[Warrior1979]

Again …it has been around since prob. before 1850 BC…

Lots of things have been around before 1850 B.C. But most weren’t worth mentioning.

and has been addressed and rejected since the early days… this is not a new issue.

Please show me a reference to NFP prior to 1850 B.C. If you don’t, you have no basis for your argument.

My response remains otherwise the same.

So does mine.

 

[Bookcat]

Lots of things have been around before 1850 B.C. But most weren’t worth mentioning.

Please show me a reference to NFP prior to 1850 B.C. If you don’t, you have no basis for your argument.

So does mine.

I am speaking of contraception. Not NFP. And I am referring to the Church’s long rejection of contraception. I guess your discussing a tiger and I am discussing a bear.

NFP is a good that yes was developed in its current methods in the 20th century.

 

[Debora123]

It’s ok Warrior. Having someone compare me to a murder for using condoms just further confirms my whole point anyway.

Thanks for having my back though.

 

[Warrior1979]

I am speaking of contraception. Not NFP. And I am referring to the Church’s long rejection of contraception.

That particular rejection refers to a particular circumstance where a person was ordered to have children. The method to disobey the order is secondary (in fact, irrelevant, since it doesn’t matter if the method with “moral” or “immoral”), and applying it to other circumstances is suspect.

 

[Bookcat]

That particular rejection refers to a particular circumstance where a person was ordered to have children. The method to disobey the order is secondary (in fact, irrelevant, since it doesn’t matter if the method with “moral” or “immoral”), and applying it to other circumstances is suspect.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes those outside the Church used various forms of contraception…yes they did all sorts of things…contraception, exposed their babies (murder), committed adultery, homosexual acts etc…which was not accepted by the Church…the early Christians condemned these things as ways of death…they lived very differently than the culture around them.

There are two ways. The way of death and the way of life.

And great is the difference between the two.

 

[Bookcat]

It’s ok Warrior. Having someone compare me to a murder for using condoms just further confirms my whole point anyway.

Thanks for having my back though.

Wow…someone did that?

…I do not see any such action…not in this tread at least.

 

[Warrior1979]

Wow…someone did that?

…I do not see any such action…not in this tread at least.

Now…I know next someone will say "your comparing murder to contraception?! " …and I reply yes…

I admit that it is difficult to have a discussion with someone about events that happened millenia ago when they can’t remember what the said in the same day.